Corn replaces oil/natural gas

[Another Bill C.]

"U researchers' discovery could lead to 'hydrogen economy'"
....

"Flip a light switch in five or 10 years and there's a fair chance the electricity that flows through your lamp will arrive courtesy of a Minnesota staple: corn."

http://www.twincities.com/mld/pioneerpress/7942037.htm

[SHRED]

1. A problem with corn

Corn takes a lot of nitrogen(fertilizer) to grow.

Lots of petroleum is used in the manufacturing of commercial fertilizer.




http://www.hemp4fuel.com/nontesters/hemp4fuel/index.html

[ret5hd]

2. correct...at the beginning of the 20th century...

we were using aprox. 1 calorie of oil to produce 4 calories of grain.
now it is (at best) 1 calorie of oil to produce 1 calorie of grain.

i read this in the last issue of The Nation.Essentially, we are now eating oil.

AND...

at the beginning of the 20th century we were burning 1 barrel of oil to produce 100 barrels.
now it is (at best) 1 barrel of oil to produce 4 barrels.

disclaimer: the above statistics are as what i remember from reading the article recently. I don't have the article in front of me, so i could be wrong.

[buckeye1]

3. Too much imput...

Too little output. Great for corn farmers if the subsides continue. Most corn farmers are beholden to Cargall and ADM.

Those that still own the land,harvest the wind. Its free,make what you can of it. It is a crop. Small foot prints can generate money.

[mastein]

4. Ethanol

I know we have had the ethanol debate here before, but it is a legit source of fuel especially in the midwest where the cost of shipment from source to customer is very low. Iowa and MN among others use it on a regular basis. Remember every drop of ethanol produced for use by a vehicle is one less drop of overseas oil we rely on. Since I don't like the idea of going to war for Halliburton nor Exxon Mobil, I like this idea.

[treepig]

5. i'd say it's more like nine drops of oil for each drop of ethanol

consider that there's roughly a one to one relationship between a gallon of ethanol produced, and a gallon of fuel going into its production.

and (please correct me if i'm incorrect) since ethanol is used to supplement fuel at ~10%, that means there is still a 90% requirement for oil (of which ~60% comes from foreign sources) - hence the nine to one "real" ratio.

if ethanol could be used directly as the energy source for production of more corn-based ethanol, very little "net" energy would be gained. therefore, while the local economies would benefit, essentially nothing would be gained as far as nation-wide energy indepedence is concerned.

[NNadir]

8. This touches on an important point.

The economics of a particular form of energy depend very much on the location where it is used. The further it needs to be shipped, the worse its economics. The cost of shipping of a particular form of energy depends heavily on the means by which it is shipped and its energy density.

This factor is the real reason why the shipment and use of energy stored as hydrogen will probably never be economic on a universal scale (although it may be economic in a few locales.) Hydrogen has a low energy density on a volume basis. (On a mass basis its is reasonably high.) The amount of energy it takes to liquefy hydrogen (and thus make it easier to ship) is astronomical, because the critical temperature is very low, cooler than the temperature of liquid nitrogen.

The distance shipped also has an impact on safety. Although they are not well publicized, there have been major accidents involving natural gas liquefaction plants. The reason the gas must be liquefied in turn (at a significant cost for cooling and pressurization) is because it would be ridiculously expensive to ship the gas on a ship. An explosion on January 20 at a natural gas liquification plant this year killed twenty Algerians.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/africa/01/20/algeria.gas.ap/

[el_gato]

6. it's a no go

no net energy gain

[cprise]

7. Well, it could be better than using it for cars:

.....................CORN .......CANOLA
Fuel yield/acre......100 gal ....100 gal
Energy balance.......125% .......430%
Energy /cubic ft.....594 BTUs ...950 BTUs

Diesel engine efficiency: minimum 35% greater than gas engine.


Look at the energy balance. That should tell you that huge amounts of fertilizers and pesticides are put into the production of corn.

[evworldeditor]

9. This forum is so refreshing...

My first reaction... okay, maybe my second reaction... to this story was what's the net energy output of this system? At best, depending on how you calculate it, there's only a 1:1.7 energy in-to-out ratio for ethanol. Substract from this the cost of transporting the fuel to your home and then the energy losses that must surely occur during the reactor process. Add to this the losses in efficiency in the SOFC and I am puzzled how they arrive at a 4 cents/kw rate.

So... it's refreshing to hear these issues discussed, which the media just doesn't seem to understand. It'd love to hear from the U of Minn researchers their views on these issues.

[cprise]

11. Agreed

A comparison of the distance you can travel with each fuel source is more helpful.

All other things being equal, a 'conversion' efficiency boost from 20% to 60% as implied by the article, would mean that ethanol's energy balance would increase from 1.2 to 1.6. That's still not comparable to biodiesel's energy balance of 3.2 (soy) and 4.3 (rape/canola), a fuel that is used in existing vehicles.

Here is are papers that figure in actual milage when comparing energy sources:

http://www.unh.edu/p2/biodiesel/article_alge.html

http://www.unh.edu/p2/biodiesel/article_vehicle_compare.html
(Total Energy Input per Mile is pretty interesting.)

[amandabeech]

10. I am thrilled

to read that more and more people are becoming aware of net energy/energy payback/EROEI analysis of various types of fuels or energy carriers, like ethanol, biodiesel and hydrogen. I expect many of you are also aware of the "peak oil" concept, and give it some credence.

We all must do what we can to get the word out to the general populace, even if we must do it gently, bit by bit.


Amanda

[mastein]

12. WOW

Thank you all for posting relevant research and rational discussion on this hot button issue. It is very appreciated. With this sort of real discussion on policy, I have faith that our strongest asset in this country is our human capital and that the gov't should harness it for the good of our people not for war profiteers.

[terryg11]

13. oil and ethanol

I'm glad to see people here catching on to the amount of oil used to create ethanol. It's not such a great deal (ethanol) once you look at it more closely. It's the subsidies tht are driving it. It does burn cleaner than regular gas but it costs more to produce. I come from a corn state and let me tell you the farmers love ethanol.

[BeFree]

14. What we need...imo

We need small refineries -- either community sized, or family sized -- so that small plots can be farmed to supply our energy needs. We need to begin moving away from the humongous centralized corporate owned mega- refineries and begin relying on ourselves and neighbors instead.

Does anyone know of any small size bio-diesel refineries?

[cprise]

15. Small scale biodiesel

Lots of people doing this on small-medium scales:

http://biodiesel.infopop.cc

http://www.journeytoforever.org/biodiesel

[Hawthorne]

16. SVO fuel

This has lots of information about running vehicles on SVO,have two cars running on it currently using Neoterics SVO system, Nissan and a Mercedes. Workin great. No road tax and good veggie vibe.

[TheWhitneyBrown]

17. Only in America

The Problem:
Transport one grossly overweight consumer and his 2 ton vehicle a distance of 10 miles so he can eat an order of fries without having to cook or leave his car.

The Solution:
Burn our food.

Analysis:
Societies that burn their food are actually mining their soil. An idea that may need to be thought through a little better.

[Wells]

18. NOT DRIVING is THE SOLUTION

Most people hope new technologies will preserve their car-addiction. It doesn't matter what frickin fuel goes in the tank. Resource conservation includes above all, alternate modes of travel, (walking, mass transit, bicycling, NOT DRIVING). These cannot be left out of the equation. Life, without a driving need for long-distance travel, is a revolt against corporate America.

When the fuel runs out, we're screwed, because through car-addiction, we have made local economies impossible.

[NNadir]

19. I agree with you in a philosophical, if not a practical sense.

In Los Angeles in the late 1970's I declared a one man war against the automobile, sold my car, and went everywhere on bicycle. (This ended one of the Los Angeles droughts.)

I was in magnificient physical shape, for all the inconveniences, but I kept getting hit by cars. I'm not sure how good it was for me to inhale all those diesel fumes either. But I imagine that the pluses outweighed the minuses healthwise, especially if you ignored the collision injuries, but socially, it ultimately became impossible. Who really wants a wet, smelly houseguest or employee?

[Wells]

20. Car-addiction is not philosophical

For most of the 20th Century, the modern city was built to accomodate the automobile. Relatively self-sufficient communities grew monstrously travel-dependent. All important destinations competed until the giants prevailed: giant schools, giant hospitals, office parks, retail outlets, all with giant parking lots or garages. Even suburban housing is car-dependent giantism. None of these can survive without cars.

Once current levels of car-mania is recognized as unsustainable, let alone idiotic, the continuation of giant development patterns halt and is supplanted with local facilities developments accessable via walking, mass transit and bicyling.

I know it's difficult for bicylists to compete with cars, but this has more to do with an impractical need for long-distance travel that car-dependent development creates.

[treepig]

21. part of the problem is a lack of "giant" schools, hospitals (or whatever)

in many areas. areas with "giant" facilities such as those you reference should be easily converted to a mass transit based system (i.e., build some high density housing in the parking lots, take out the center two lanes of the 6 lane thoroughfare connecting these facilities, and put in a trolley/light rail/monorail etc).

unfortunately, the vast majority of the suburban lifestyle is supported by relatively few "giant" facilities and far too many dispersed facilities - such as the mile long strip of mcdonalds, burger king, wendy's, subway, boston market, applebees' (and twenty more i'm too lazy to list). all of these restaurants could be conceivably built on three or four acres right by the transit stop. as of now, who's going to get off the train and walk 3/4 mile to arby's?

[Bdog]

22. Biofuels from Switchgrass: Greener Energy Pastures

Most researchers have concluded that ethanol made from corn is slightly energy positive.

However, there are many other feed stocks that are better suited for ethanol production.

http://bioenergy.ornl.gov/papers/misc/switgrs.html
Biofuels from Switchgrass: Greener Energy Pastures
“Looking down the road, McLaughlin believes switchgrass offers important advantages as an energy crop. "Producing ethanol from corn requires almost as much energy to produce as it yields," he explains, "while ethanol from switchgrass can produce about five times more energy than you put in. When you factor in the energy required to make tractors, transport farm equipment, plant and harvest, and so on, the net energy output of switchgrass is about 20 times better than corn's." Switchgrass also does a far better job of protecting soil, virtually eliminating erosion. And it removes considerably more CO2 from the air, packing it away in soils and roots.”

"The grass stretched as far as the eye could see, and hundreds more miles beyond that. An ocean of grass—deep enough to swallow a horse and rider—swaying and singing in the steady wind of the Great Plains. § The American prairie—tens of millions of acres— once looked like this. But that was centuries ago, before the coming of the white man, the railroad, and the steel plow. Today, corn and beans hold sway, and the remnants of America's tallgrass prairie are confined mostly to parks and preserves. § Now, though, in research plots and laboratories in the Plains states and even in the Deep South the seeds of change are germinating. The tall, native grasses of the prairie, so vital to our land's ecological past, may prove equally vital to its economic future. Such grasses once fed millions of bison. Soon, grown as energy crops, they may help fuel millions of cars and trucks, spin power turbines, and supply chemicals to American industries."