Saab is selling FFV that gets just as good mileage as gasoline powered -

[JohnWxy]

cars. It's just a matter of optimizing for the higher octane in E85

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x40236


keep in mind an ethanol powered car running on E85 is cutting gasoline consumption by 85%.

(AND THIS IS AT NO EXTRA COST FOR THE CAR! FFV do not cost any more than a regular car!)

ANY car that uses gasoline can use E15 (15% ethanol) and would be cutting gasoline consumption
by 15%.

Of course, if you combine ethanol WITH Hybrid technology you get , what about 10 - 15% reduction in gas consumption for the hybrid (using real world numbers) plus, 15% reduction if you use E15 yielding a 28% reduction in gsaasoline consumption!

Now if you put a FFV engine in the Hybrid you would get 15% reduction for hybrid technology and 85% rreduction from the E85 usage , yielding an 87.25% reduction in gasoline consumption.

[mike_c]

1. which, multiplied by the world's fleet of gasoline powered vehicles...

...means-- oops, where will we grow all that corn?

[Vincardog]

3. How much Petro in fuel and fertilizer does it cost to get that Corn?

[mike_c]

4. and there isn't sufficient primary production capacity on the Earth...

...to meet even a reasonable fraction of the energy demand currently being fueled by fossil carbon. Biofuels are not the answer. No biofuel is ever going to approach the energy concentration of the ultimate biofuel-- fossil petroleum. Either an entirely different energy economy has to replace it, or the human energy demand must be reduced to a small fraction of its current level. No other alternatives are sustainable, IMO.

[JohnWxy]

5. Wangs study on inputs to make ethanol

I couldn't make this link work when pasted into this message. I think if you copy it into the address/navigation bar it will work. It will take you to a summary of Wang's study on imputs to ethanol production process.

"http://ncga.com/public_policy/ PDF/03_28_05ArgonneNatlLabEthanolStudy.pdf"


this is a link to an article about Wang's work:

http://www.sdi.qld.gov.au/dsdweb/v3/guis/templates/content/gui_cue_cntnhtml.cfm?id=16080

YOu can also Google "wang ethanol argonne" and get links one of which will be the first one I gave above. It will take you to the summary of Wangs study.


The answer is "YES" it costs something to produce ethanol it's just more efficient process than the production of gasoline. However, they are just getting started on cellulosic ethanol which is made from plant waste. We currently produce enough plant waste that would produce an amount of ethanol equal to about 4 times current production. Now plant waste doesn't cost anything, right?

NOw ethanol, given current technology, will not replace gasoline entirely. Current technology will produce (if expanded to potential) about 20-30% of the gasoline demand. But ethanol production can be expanded quickly (well, quicker than developoing some alternative newer technologies) and reduce our imports of foreign oil which puts us at considerable economic risk (from disruptions of oil supply). An oil supply disruption of 5% to 10% is certainly possible (at any time). Now, with ethanol we have a way to fairly quickly produce 5% (and in a little more time 10%) of our gasoline demand. This would provide us with protection from a disruption of oil supply of 5% or a bit more. Also, expanding the infastructure for corn ethanol production will put us in a better position to start off cellulosic ehtanol from a more economic base. Cellulosic ethanol has considerably more potential output than starch based (corn, beets, sugar cane) soureces


NOte that Ethanol 15 (15% ethanol) can be burned in any engine that burns gasoline. You are ready to go right now to use E15 if you drive a gasoline burning engine. When you use E15 you would be reducing your gasoline consumption by 15% - and without the considerabale expense of buying a hybrid vehicle!

[Jackpine Radical]

2. But ethanol ain't exactly free energy.

It takes energy to grow grain, fertilize it, harvest it, & & distill the mash into hi-test C2H5OH. How much do you really gain?

[madmark]

6. the inputs to create the ethanol have all kinds of negative external

costs

[Massacure]

7. Ethanol has an EROI of ratio in the area of 1:1.7.

Any crop based fuel is basically just a method of collecting an easier to use solar energy. Corn is a terrible way to convert it though. Algae by far is the most efficient, and it has been proven to work. It is just a matter of figuring out how to scale it up whilst keeping it economical.

[IronLionZion]

8. FFV is not some crazy special engine

some parts are corrosive when exposed to ethanol. FFV engines simply replace those parts with non-corrosive materials.

Keep in mind that:
1. you will use more E85 than you would gasoline
2. E85 evaporates easily
3. Corn sucks. Sugarcane or hemp are way better for making ethanol.