Power grid change may disrupt clocks

[OKIsItJustMe]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/06/24/ap/tech/main20074275.shtml

June 25, 2011 12:29 AM

AP EXCLUSIVE: Power grid change may disrupt clocks

(AP) WASHINGTON (AP) — Our power supply has been so precise that we've set our clocks by it. But time may be running out on that idea.

A yearlong experiment with the electric grid may make plug-in clocks and devices like coffeemakers with programmable timers run up to 20 minutes fast.

The group that oversees the U.S. power grid is proposing a change that has the potential to disrupt electric clocks in schools, hospitals and other institutions, according to a company presentation obtained by The Associated Press. It may also mess with the timing of traffic lights, security systems, sprinklers and some personal computer software and hardware.

Since 1930, electric clocks have kept time based on the rate of the electrical current that powers them. If the current slips off its usual rate, clocks run a little fast or slow. Power companies now take steps to correct it and keep the frequency of the current — and the time — as precise as possible.

…

"Is anyone using the grid to keep track of time?" McClelland said. "Let's see if anyone complains if we eliminate it."

…

[MineralMan]

1. It's not just clocks. All synchronous motors will be

affected by this. It's interesting that the frequency of power has been tightly controlled for so long. Now it's not going to be. There are synchronous motors in lots of things.

[FreakinDJ]

2. So much is WRONG with this article I don't know where to start

[OKIsItJustMe]

3. It struck me as FUD

(Perhaps I underestimate the true risk.)

[FreakinDJ]

4. What is "FUD" - the article ignores basics physics

[OKIsItJustMe]

5. FUD - Fear Uncertainty and Doubt

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty_and_doubt

[DCKit]

6. You nailed it.

The electronics are totally separate from the power supply.

They USED to regulate clocks by manipulating the cycles/second, but that was over and done with before I was born. I'm running 123 volts in my building, and I doubt it's ever, exactly, 60 cycles/second. After twenty years, I'm still watching the same TV and all my old computers run just fine.

Another myth created by the PTB to manipulate the willfully ignorant, but what is their goal, the subtext? We really need to know.

[FreakinDJ]

7. A lot of discussion about Photo-Voltaic

being subject to "Wild Swings" when a cloud passes by

So in essence this is a "Hit Piece" against photo-voltaic / solar farms. You should see the wild swings of frequency around Hydro Electric dams, but it usually does stay within the 50 - 60 Hz spectrum.

While I am not so much enthusiastic over large photovoltaic / solar farms, there has been some recent study (computer modeling) that says 99% of the problem goes away when you establish large amounts of photovoltaic power through "Roof Top" photovoltaic. The distribution of photovoltaic inverted power (capacitive reactive) verses inductive loading from normal power consumption helps to neutralize the adverse effects of the capacitive reactant brought on by the use of inverters. Additionally the "Cloud passing" effect is similarly diminished by the distributive properties of the roof top locations. When the clouds are over 1 roof they won't be over the others and vise versa

[Wilms]

8. That's certainly true for "electronics" with a separate power supply and, say, a crystal oscillator.

But a simple clock, or timer, synchronizes to the 60hz line frequency.

There won't be a problem for your computer or CD player, but for a clock and lamp timer...

[bananas]

10. Those need to be reset periodically anyway because of blackouts and circuit breakers

[DCKit]

15. OK, fine, but is that really enough to totally disrupt your life and a cause for hysteria?

I spend half my time in an area where the power supply is sketchy (more so than here in DC). Nobody's jumping off roofs because their clock's are off.

The power has been disrupted on and off for the past two months as the power company has been trimming trees around the lines with a helicopter. They've even managed to cut the lines twice.

When asked to commiserate with my neighbors, I simply say "What outage? We're off the grid and I have more electricity than I can use."

[Wilms]

21. I agree there's no need for hysteria.

And if that was the intent of the article, it blew right past me since, while the concern seems real, it hardly seems to be a big deal.

As I noted on this thread, whatever adjustments need to made in order to accommodate renewables are an opportunity, not a cause to question our need to shift.

[TalkingDog]

22. Could it have something to do with this:

NERC Industry Advisory: Preparing for Geo-Magnetic Disturbances
http://www.nerc.com/fileUploads/File/Events%20Analysis/A-2011-05-10-01_GMD_FINAL.pdf

[truedelphi]

18. My friend Paul had a device that monitered the

electricity throughout the day, 24/7.

Even in the early nineteen eighties, it was possible to watch the count stand at around 120 at four in the Am, and drop to 114 by mid afternoon.

[pnorman]

23. That's voltage variations,

The discussion here is about the frequency of the AC distribution system. The most common value by far for power distribution is 60 cycles per second of AC (60 HZ). Power companies go to great lengths to maintain that very closely despite load variations, at least as an average daily value.

[Tesha]

19. Unless you're quite young, you may still find that some of your clocks are line-frequency driven.

We have quite a few in our house and we're not *THAT*
old. In fact, we bought several of them within the last
year.

In one case, I know for certain that the digital clock
is "line-time" controlled because I've seen its schem-
atic. In two other cases, we can be pretty certain those
digital clocks are probably "line-time" controlled
because all three clocks drift "synchronously" against
the GPS and WWVB radio clocks.

In several more cases (digital X-10 timers), the clocks
keep perfect time while the power is on, but they run
very noticeably fast during power failures (while they're
running on their batteries).

And in a few more cases (analog timers), they're driven
by synchronous motors that definitely run on "line-time".

Yes, lots of clocks, even a few that run on AC Power are
crystal- or radio-controlled, but there are still plenty
of "line-time" clocks around.

Tesha

[Wilms]

9. You read it?

Pick a place to start. I'm listening.

BTW. I'm ok with this as a cost of switching to renewables. Let us reduce our reliance on the old line-frequency dependent technologies.

[tridim]

11. Do they even sell coffee makers with anolog clocks any more?

I kind of doubt it.

IMO we need to get off of AC completely. There's really no point to it any more.

[FreakinDJ]

12. NOPE !!

[pnorman]

14. "we need to get off of AC completely."

With all due respect, I think you need to do some brushing up on basic electricity.

[RKP5637]

16. +1, n/t

[tridim]

17. So you enjoy your wall warts?

[pnorman]

24. Do I "enjoy" electricity distributed to my apartment?

As opposed to, WHAT other form of power? Steam, perhaps?

[Tesha]

20. AC is still the cheapest way to distribute power around the neighborhoods.

It's fine to call for *ALL* long-haul transmission to
be high-voltage DC, and that would do great things
for transmission efficiency and system regulation,
but for local distribution, it's still hard to beat AC.

That transformer sitting atop the pole outside your
house (or buried in a vault under the sidewalk) has
an MTBF (Mean Time Between Failures) of almost forever.
Compared to any solid state voltage converter, it's
still cheaper and far more reliable, especially in
face of lightning strikes, transient overloads, and
the similar woes of life that a power distribution
system routinely faces.

And 3-phase AC distribution allows for a very wide
variety of utilization voltages to be provided for
the variety of customers in any one area. 13KV delta
right to the big factory, 208-Y or 480 delta to the
light industry and office buildings, and 120 volts
split-phase to all the houses.

It will be a while (if ever) before that all goes DC.

Tesha

[pnorman]

25. "The War Of The Currents"

http://www.discovery-enterprise.com/2011/01/electricity-war.html

On edit, here's Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_Currents

[kestrel91316]

13. My digital clock radio has, for 10 years, run fast now and then,

sometimes as much as several minutes a month. Nothing new here.

Plus, with the power outages, I am having to reset clocks several times a year anyway.