Apparently, TEPCO has known for months that Unit 1s core had melted.

[Fledermaus]

The nuclear industry at its best....they have done absolutely nothing to mitigate this disaster, nothing. Over two months and they have done nothing. The nuclear indusry...untrustworthy, inept, mean spirited, moronic, deceitful, imbecilic, dullards, obtuse, asinine, contemptibly stupid, silly, ignorant, criminally negligent, pompous asses

FUKUSHIMA PREFECTURE, Japan—The Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant deteriorated in the crucial first 24 hours far more rapidly than previously understood, a Wall Street Journal reconstruction of the disaster shows.

Tepco engineers now believe the tsunami knocked out most, if not all, of the batteries, according to documents from Tepco on Monday. But they didn't know that then. They thought the batteries were still working, giving them the eight-hour cushion.........

As dusk approached at Fukushima Daiichi, engineers used the scavenged car batteries to power makeshift gear to try to understand what was going on inside the reactors. At 9:21 p.m., they took an alarming reading: The water level in Reactor 1 had dropped so sharply that its fuel rods were about to be exposed..........

Around midnight, pressure within the vessel containing Reactor No. 1 had already exceeded its design maximum by 50%. Radiation levels were so high that Tepco president Masataka Shimizu ordered workers to stay away from the building.......

What followed were hours of miscommunication and confusion. By 2:45 a.m. March 12, Tepco had told NISA that pressure in the vessel containing Reactor 1 was already likely double the design maximum.........

Still, its vent remained closed. From the prime minister's office, Mr. Kaieda called Tepco executives hourly to check on progress. At 6:50 a.m., he formally ordered Tepco to vent, still without result.

Tepco disclosed this week that it now believes that, by this time on the morning of March 12, the nuclear fuel in Reactor 1 had already melted into a heap at the bottom of the reactor vessel.

Government officials now say it took Tepco so long to decide to vent because the radiation release would sharply elevate the accident's severity. They say Tepco still hoped the accident could be contained without venting, given that release of radioactivity in the atmosphere would instantly rank Fukushima among the world's worst accidents, along with Chernobyl.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704322804576302553455643510.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

[Warren DeMontague]

1. I'm shocked. Shocked, I say!

Actually, that explains some stuff that didn't make a ton of sense before.

[bananas]

2. That explains why Obama ordered a 50 mile (80km) evacuation zone - NSA probably spied on them

Let's face it - this was a national security threat - we sent an aircraft carrier over there, and then had to back it away from the fallout plume. We had to evacuate military bases in the area.

There's a FOIA request regarding why the US declared a 50 mile evacuation zone, it'll be interesting to find out what information doesn't get released.

[Fledermaus]

16. It's obvious that our government and others are more realistic and honest than TEPCO

There were several countries that told their citizens to leave Japan.

[flamingdem]

17. The US government had to have known

and that makes this all the more insidious. The people of the area should sue en masse

[Fledermaus]

31. Well I'm not sure that I would go that far, but they knew it was bad.

Once the cooling fails you have 2 to 6 hours to get as far up wind as you can get.

Here's some good info. It goes through several kinds of failures and what the end result will be. TEPCO had to know the core was crap. All you need to know is how long the core was uncovered.

Station Blackout at Browns
Ferry Unit One—Accident
Sequence Analysis
http://www.ornl.gov/info/reports/1981/3445600211884.pdf

[defendandprotect]

3. 18 nuclear reactors on earthquake-prone Japan - all built to withstand 7.0 quakes!!

Just a reminder this was a 9 -- !! With 350 aftershocks ranging from 4's to higher

numbers --

Seismic activity is increasing and will continue to increase due to Global Warming

and melting of the glaciers --

Earthquakes also trigger additional volcanic activity --

Global Warming is one of the highest secrets the rightwing needs to keep --

and they had a 50 year gap in our feeling the effects of Global Warming where they and

oil industry/ExxonMobil could propagandize the public with lies and disinformation --

that period is over --

Though we are only up to about 1960 -- consider the "human activity" after that period of time!!


We have to start paying attention to what is happening with vegetation and the food supply --

Global Warming will bring increasing numbers of floods/droughts --

We need to force government to react to Global Warming -- changing light bulbs isn't going to do it!!

[denbot]

4. Um.. No glaciers around Fukushima

When the continental ice age sheets melted there were huge area rebounds in surfaces previouly cover with thick ice, but I don't think that what little mass today's glaciers have, compared to the mountain ranges that house them, can affect magma chambers.

[defendandprotect]

6. So I guess there have been no earthquakes in Japan, then? And no more to come?

Wherever plates brush against one another, Global Warming -- Glacier Melting --

will be increasing the pressures on the plates --

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4837036&mesg_id=4837639




Japanese Scientists have long been reporting increasing seismic activity and given

the age of the plants and these reports, the Mayor of Fukushima called for the closing

of the nuclear reactors at Fukushima -

Here's more on that story --


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=125x309897

[AtheistCrusader]

7. Correlation/causation.

You are lacking it.

[AtheistCrusader]

5. Either you excerpted the wrong part of the article

or you mis-read it.

You:
"Apparently, TEPCO has known for months that Unit 1s core had melted."

Them:
"Tepco disclosed this week that it now believes that, by this time on the morning of March 12, the nuclear fuel in Reactor 1 had already melted into a heap at the bottom of the reactor vessel."

[Fledermaus]

8. At best, delusional and living in denial

and that's being kind. Considering their lack of truthfulness and inaction over the last two months it's more like criminally negligent.

[AtheistCrusader]

9. Inaction?

Yeah, ok, whatever you say pal.

Inaction would mean they still wouldn't be able to get inside Building 1 and directly determine ANYTHING about the state of the core.

[Fledermaus]

10. Drill horizontally under the buildings and monitor heat and radiation, Buddy..

So Fucking Simple!!! and it would tell you every thing you need to know. But, NO! Those morons some how thought that all of their interments were still working after each one fucking blew up. Only an idiot would believe that. They have known approximately how long the cores were uncovered. They knew all along they had no idea what sea water would do to their instruments. FUCKING INCOMPETENT HACKS!!!



Directional Bore Machines
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http://www.directionalboringcentral.com/library/dba/dbapamphlet.htm

[AtheistCrusader]

11. It would tell you if the horse had left the barn, only.

This may be in the works, or planned. I doubt they have any horizontal drilling equipment that can be run into soil containing high levels of radiation and radioactive water, without exposing the operator.



In fairness, here we do touch on the failure of the Nuclear Industry as a whole to innovate in preparation for a disaster, seeing as this sort of monitoring is not already in place, and this sort of equipment is likely not on hand. (see re-purposed concrete pumping trucks that happen to have remote-control capability, as a happy co-incidence of the industry, not specifically for the use of the Nuclear Industry)

[Fledermaus]

12. It will tell if it's getting ready to leave the barn, in the barn, or left the barn..Buddy!

It's common equipment. I bet I could go and rent a small one today!

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[FBaggins]

13. Why do they need to do that?

You've already told us what would happen when molten corium comes in contact with water... and we know the water can't bee too far down since they're right on the ocean...


... all they need to do is watch for the BOOOM! right?

[SpoonFed]

14. So, no comment then?

With regards to the hacks and the shills engaging in coverup, lying by omission and pretending the situation is under control for the past 60 days? (That's what this thread and OP are actually about.) Oh wait. It's not like you had anything to do with that.

Furthermore, it's interesting that you go on the attack against a forum member who way-back-when was discussing a) that the cores could be molten and b) what negative consequences that might have, WHEN all the while you were pretending that this wasn't a possibility (with all your pompous declarations and brain-damaged metaphors) and NOW it has been stated (months later via TEPCO's usual bullshit) that this point was reached within the first 48hrs of the disaster.

This is just more of your juvenille attacks directed against anyone who points out the dirty truth about the nuke industry tactics and TEPCO in particular. It's your standard operating procedure. You're attacking the messenger, like a petulant child. You did this when the situation reached INES 7, you're doing it now.

It must make you mad when the facts and light of day expose the nasty reality of how this situation has developed and how wrong all your little theories have been. I posit that your little theories have never intended to be correct, they've just been created to distract, misinform and downplay the severity of this accident since day one. Furthermore your posts like this one about another thread as just more bullying of your opponents.

You've done this now with a) the stated level of the incident b) the horrific levels of radiological release c) the state of the cores d) the damage to the buildings e) the reputations of experts f) the validity of sources, the list goes on and on.

So, yeah, maybe the cores are still in the building with Elvis and haven't hit the water table YET but it sure looks like all the contaminated water has hit the ocean and everywhere in between. While it remains to be seen if the poster was right, it remains quite clear how wrong you are.

This is TEPCO via WSJ. Put that in your hobbit pipe and smoke it.

[FBaggins]

15. Comment on your fantasy? Why?

the hacks and the shills engaging in coverup, lying by omission and pretending the situation is under control for the past 60 days?

Nobody has ever pretended that it was "under control"

you go on the attack against a forum member who way-back-when was discussing a) that the cores could be molten and b) what negative consequences that might have, WHEN all the while you were pretending that this wasn't a possibility

Go ahead and look for that post. You won't find it because it doesn't exist.

I corrected people weeks later who thought the cores were STILL molten, but that's different. They weren't. I confirmed a meltdown in all three units pretty much from the very beginning. In fact I used it to prove you (IIRC) wrong on claims that the containment couldn't contain a meltdown.

You continue to ignore your numerous errors while inventing them for others to facilitate your fantasy that you weren't wrong to begin with. Every time you see a news announcement, you imagine that it justified your prior predictions even when just the opposite is true.

[SpoonFed]

19. Dude, you might as well be working for disneyland instead of the nuke industry...

Nobody has ever pretended that it was "under control"

Really? Like you haven't by continually posting "radiation readings falling" and "this food is no longer radioactive" and "they're cooling the reactors"...?

You haven't proven anything except the lengths you're willing to go to and the depths you're willing to stoop to, to defend this incredibly dangerous industry.

The most amusing thing about it are the regular TEPCO press releases that completely refute your latest round of fantasy football explanations. If the Tour de France was rode in reverse, you'd beat Armstrong with all your back peddling but you'd be racing in the mountains of Armenia for all the tendency you have to remain in what the rest of us like to call reality.

[FBaggins]

20. Yes. Really.

Like you haven't by continually posting "radiation readings falling"

Only because the radiation readings HAVE been continually falling. I know that reality has been inconvenient for you... but it is what it is.

and "this food is no longer radioactive" and

Where it has ceased to test as radioactive, that's what I've said. See comments above.

and "they're cooling the reactors"...?

And they were. Did you see the temperatures early on? Do you know the difference between heat and temperature? Do you know what would be happening if they WEREN'T cooling them?

Got any examples that don't make you look foolish?

regular TEPCO press releases that completely refute your latest round of fantasy football explanations.

Such as?

you'd beat Armstrong with all your back peddling

Would that be "back peddling" like Arnie starting with predictions of hundreds of thousands of deaths... and now spinning that they just got lucky and things WOULD have been real bad if the wind had been blowing the other way? Or "back peddling" like you constantly replying to news of declining radiation levels with "it's not over yet".

Hint... hoping that things will later fall apart to prove you right in the end is both a little craven and a little unhinged.

[flamingdem]

18. Baggins you're down to this item for your sneering? Big picture: catastrophe

Repeat after me, Fukushima is a f**king catastrophe, you simply must get out of denial, even if you're not there getting a dose plenty of innocents are and will die.

[FBaggins]

21. Who ever said it wasn't a catastrophe?

I swear... you guys just can't see anything as being bad enough unless it's worse than Chernobyl.

I've never said anything OTHER than that it's truly awful. Your problem is that there's a massive scale from truly awful to "dwarfs chernobyl!!!!"

I also constantly corrected you on this obsessive attachment to what IS a "catastrophe", BUT isn't nearly as catastrophic as the events you're ignoring that actually DID kill tens of thousands.

[flamingdem]

28. Incorrect. The fact that it is INES Level 7 indicates more catastrophic

due to the international impact among other issues. Making a large part of of a highly populated island country uninhabitable for decades is a contributing factor to the level of disaster indicated.

[FBaggins]

29. "International impact" was not mentioned

Why did you decide it was one of the issues?

The fact that it is INES Level 7 indicates more catastrophic

More catastriphic than anything but Chernobyl... but not close to Chernobyl.

I know you remain confused by the scale stopping at seven. I wish I could help you... but you remain beyond reach on that one. :)

Making a large part of of a highly populated island country uninhabitable for decades

What on earth are you talking about? A very small portion will be "uninhabitable for decades" and that "uninhabitable" is intended to protect human health. You STILL seem to ignore the fact that tens of thousands of people were killed and many MANY more acres destroyed.

[flamingdem]

33. Why do you insist on minimizing an event that is ongoing and NOT stable?

Oh well I do know why, for emotional or financial reasons you are committed to nuclear power, go figure.

[FBaggins]

34. I'm not.

I'm correcting those (like yourself) that dramatically exagerate the event.

There's a big difference.

[flamingdem]

35. There is no definition of this event or its impact until it is at least under control

and it's premature to accuse others of exaggerating, though that is your stock in trade, and every other nuke speaker as well.

Luckily the nuke lovers lies and silly over optimism regarding other people's health are being exposed over this and that is the silver lining to the catastrophe.

[Someguyinjapan]

36. You dramatically under exaggerate this event

And each new disclosure by TEPCO underscores that. And why? Because you suffer from the same dearth of information in your "analyses" that authorities far better qualified than you do.

Despite your use of weasel words in what you think is a skillful attempt to cover your ass in this debate, I have yet to see you concede or admit you were wrong about any of this. Maybe you have and I missed it, but somehow I don't think you have the capacity to do so.

[OKIsItJustMe]

22. Nothing new here

[OKIsItJustMe]

23. March 15 Estimate—Fuel is “severely damaged”

(Download PDF for best quality) http://www.jaif.or.jp/english/news_images/pdf/ENGNEWS01_1300171089P.pdf

[FBaggins]

24. Yep. People seem to be making a VERY big deal about a pretty small chage.

We knew there was a meltdown in all three active reactors... and they reported as much from very early on. We didn't know how far "melted down" things were, but they really still don't "know". We didn't know (and still don't) whether the fuel was partially suspended near it's original location (unlikely now), or at the bottom of the RPV (likely) or at the bottom of the containment (or some combination) - and we still don't "know".

The prior estimate was based on what was found in the water that leaked out... a very inexact science since the chemistry involved is not well understood and the exact conditions were not known (the same reason that Iodine released at TMI were much lower than expected and the iodine component was higher than expected at one point here - causing some to incorrectly assume recriticality). The current estimate is based on recently worked-on sensors that might or might not be accurate.

Yet suddenly all the whacky theories that were out in left field from day one are carted back onto the stage in a hope that NOW they don't look so off-base. Active fission... still-molten cores... burned through all containment and on their way to the water table...prompt-critical explosions... and on and on.

[OKIsItJustMe]

26. Reviewing the press releases…

It appears to me that over time they convinced themselves that it might not have been a total meltdown.

[FBaggins]

27. All they had to go on was the composition of emissions

steam and/or water than had been released was checked and compared to estimates of what the proportions would be given certain damage models.

The problem with that is that there really isn't a lab for modeling these kinds of reactions. I remember that they were shocked when they found out how much of the TMI core had been damaged because the iodine component wasn't close to what they would have expected if that were true.

They may also have been listening to some of the naysayers. Remember that we were told (supposedly by people who had designed the containment) that the RPV and primary containment couldn't contain a complete meltdown. It would burn right through 70% (IIRC) of the time. Maybe they just mistakenly thought that these guys knew what they were talking about and figured it must be less than 100% ? :)

[Fledermaus]

30. Delusional happy magic thinking...management could not accept reality.

They knew how long the cores were uncovered and what the end result would be. Some body had to have known.

Station Blackout at Browns
Ferry Unit One—Accident
Sequence Analysis
http://www.ornl.gov/info/reports/1981/3445600211884.pdf

[OKIsItJustMe]

25. TEPCO Press Release (Mar 12,2011)—White smoke around the Fukushima Daiichi—Unit 1

http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/press/corp-com/release/11031225-e.html

Press Release (Mar 12,2011)
White smoke around the Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Station Unit 1

---

On March 11, 2011, turbines and reactors of Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear 
Power Station Unit 1(Boiling Water Reactor, Rated Output 460 MW) and 
Unit 2 and 3 (Boiling Water Reactor, Rated Output 784 MW) that had been 
operating at rated power automatically shutdown due to the 
Tohoku-Chihou-Taiheiyou-Oki Earthquake.(already announced)

Today at approximately 3:36PM, a big quake occurred and there was a big 
sound around the Unit 1 and white smoke.
Our two employees and two subcontract workers working for the safety of 
the plant were injured and transported to the hospital.

We are presently checking on the site situation of each plant and effect 
of discharged radioactive materials.

We will endeavor to restore the units and continue monitoring the 
environment of the site periphery.

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. How shocked should I act?

Next core meltdowns in two other reactors, oopsie, we knew.



Next, water is wet you know.

As I have said from some time now... assume what they are saying is full of shit... they got an industry to protect after all