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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 08:35 PM
Original message
The Royal Academy of Engineering weighs in: Go nuclear.
Edited on Sun May-15-05 08:38 PM by NNadir
"Nuclear power 'is critical to Britain's future'
By Mark Henderson
Renewable power will not stop global warming or blackouts



BRITAIN must build a new generation of nuclear power stations to prevent blackouts and fight global warming, the country’s most senior engineer said yesterday.
Sir Alec Broers, the president of the Royal Academy of Engineering, said that government plans to generate 20 per cent of electricity from renewable sources by 2020 were unrealistic and investment in nuclear power was critical if shortages were to be avoided.

All but one of the nuclear plants that now generate almost a quarter of Britain’s electricity are due to close in the next two decades, and ministers have refused to make a commitment to building replacements.

The recent Energy White Paper instead set ambitious targets for renewable power, such as wind and tidal energy, and plans to meet remaining electricity needs from fossil fuels.

This policy made over optimistic assumptions about the potential and cost of renewables, and would do little to cut emissions of greenhouse gases, Sir Alec said.

While the Government was right to invest in wind power, it would be a huge and misguided gamble to ignore nuclear power as an important element of the energy mix..."

...The Energy White Paper, he said, had been too generous to the potential role that renewables can play. “The view of wind power is over-optimistic — that we can get to 20 per cent renewable energy by 2020 and that it will be as straightforward as that. Some forms may be far more expensive than we think they are.

“All of these energy sources should carry the costs of their overheads with them. If you have wind power, you have to have back-up from gas generation, for when there is not enough wind, and the cost of those plants has to be added to the cost of wind power.

“We can’t just put up wind turbines and generate a lot of electricity for free. We will need to redesign the grid, set up reserves for when the wind isn’t blowing strongly enough, learn how to store power...” "

http://www.countryguardian.net/Broers.htm From the London Times.

Comment: These comments are of course, from an engineer, an engineer being, for those who are apparently unfamiliar with the concept, being a class of people who build real systems in the real world as opposed to fantasy systems in imagined heavens.

We are about to be bombarded with links from scientifically illiterate journalists saying that the chief engineer of Britain is a liar, that he doesn't know what he's talking about, etc, etc, etc ad nauseum. The links will be posted by people who claim to understand radioactivity - even to make rather fantastic claims to have worked with it - in spite of the fact that they clearly cannot understand even the basic radioactive decay law. Before posting the links they will recite the "nuclear exceptionalism" rosary bead by bead, "waste, Chernobyl, terrorists, accidents, weapons...blah, blah, blah..." while you are choked by heat and the lives of your children are destroyed.

So be it. Here is the situation folks: The words of engineers fall below the words of illiterate reporters repeating religious mantras. There is a word, of course, for a historical period very much like the one we are now entering. It was called, ironically enough, "The Dark Ages," mostly because religion prevailed over reality.

It is always the province of the religious to place their unsupported faith over science, to repeat dogma no matter what the cost in ethics, economics, hope and lives. Now, of course, it is not just merely human lives that are involved, but the lives of most organisms on the planet.

But we are already long past the point where history will forgive us.




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Double T Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 08:47 PM
Response to Original message
1. The Entire World Needs More Wind And Nuclear Power Generation.......
......because we are all a bunch of energy hogs; continuing to use more each year.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 10:10 PM
Response to Original message
2. Isn't this an "appeal to authority"? Sir Alec's an electron microscopist.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-05 11:29 AM
Response to Original message
3. LOL!
Edited on Mon May-16-05 12:21 PM by jpak
"The Times August 18, 2003"

Out of date and out of touch...

fear mongering...

<snip>

Sir Alec’s fears, which he voiced in an interview with The Times, add to growing concern about the security of Britain’s energy supply, an issue that has risen sharply on the political agenda after the blackout that struck the United States and Canada last week.

Energy experts said on Friday that similar power cuts could happen here as soon as next winter, and Brian Wilson, a former Energy Minister...

<snip>

Jeepers - did the UK really go black the last two winters??? News to me...

If Sir Alec was so concerned about Britain's "energy security" perhaps he can tell us where the UK's uranium comes from (clue: it ain't home grown).

The latest study of UK wind power drives a sharp stake into this nonsense.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x23880

The earliest a new UK reactor could come on line is 2018.

http://www.sundayherald.com/49775

Equivalent wind generating capacity could come on-line within a few years (remember - the emergency is now!).

Note: the US expects to deploy 2-2500 MW of wind generating capacity this year alone - the wind-turbine industry could do the same for the UK with ease...and an aggressive push for residential energy efficiency could forestall and/or eliminate the need for need new UK generating capacity faster and more cheaply than the (most-cost) nuclear option.

Finally: I've stated this before - I've worked with radioisotopes since 1977 (14C, 3H, 35S, 32P and 55Fe) and published 9 peer-reviewed papers using various radioisotope methods in the last 12 years - including one in Nature in 1996. I fully understand radioactivity and I'm not "afraid" of it at all...so please, no more ad homnium attacks...
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-05 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. From our own Department of Energy...
"The UK imported 5.1 Bkwh of electricity in 2003, according to DTI, with France providing the bulk of these imports."

That would be nuclear electricity...


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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-05 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. No need for new UK nukes then, right???
:hi:
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-05 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. That seems to be the current plan of Italy and the United Kingdom...
Let France do it.

(HVDC power transmission is one of my hobbies, if that explains anything.)
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-05 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Would that make France the world's first country where
eletricity is a major export?
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-05 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Not really
Canada exports 25-40 TWh a year to the US, ~80% generated from hydro.

Also, France is almost entirely dependent on imported uranium from its "former" colonies of Niger and Gabon - they also import large quantities of yellowcake from Canada...so, even though they export nuclear generated electricity, they are wholly dependent on imported uranium.
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-05 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Canada exports electricity.
In 2002 Canada's net electricity exports were 23 billion kWh. Some of this is nuclear.


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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-05 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. So do they convert AC->DC->AC with dynamos?
I suppose they could just generate DC with DC generators, transport it a long distance, then convert it to save one conversion. Nonetheless, I cannot imagine semiconductors converting 1000 Megawatts.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-05 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. DC attenuates quickly in long distance transmission.
The power industry in the US really only took off after Westinghouse built an AC generator ...
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-17-05 05:22 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Not really
The reason Edison's DC system failed and AC succeeded was that AC power could be run through distribution transformers. The DC system could only be distributed at one voltage from the power station to the consumer. There might be 240V generated at the power station, but due to the resistance of the distribution line conductors, it may only be 80V a few blocks away. Consumers would have to buy different voltages of light bulbs depending on how far they were from the generating station.

In an AC system, power is distributed at a high voltage and converted to the 240V/120V used at each home with a local transformer that is within a block of each house. The power company can pretty much guarantee that your line voltage is between 110V and 120V.

Britain buys power from France that crosses the channel under the sea with high voltage DC conductors. There were also some extremely high voltages proposed in the US for long distance transmission, but I don't know what became of it. I have a hunch that DC is used to eliminate parasitic inductive losses, but I don't know the length of it.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-17-05 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Thanks for the info.

<snip> As the manager of the Gold King Mine, located high above Telluride near today’s ghost town of Alta, Nunn was faced with dwindling profits and possible closure if he could not figure out how to power the mine and milling operations at a lower cost. The mine, which had already cut all the trees for fuel over the years, was now being powered by coal, which had to be brought in by mule trains. The cost was prohibitive. Nunn had read about the successes of Nikola Tesla and George Westinghouse with alternating current power and was impressed with their claims that it could be transmitted much longer distances than Direct Current.

With three hundred and fifty jobs at stake and the solvency of the mine and town hanging in the balance, Nunn boarded a train for Pittsburgh and an unannounced visit with Tesla and Westinghouse. At the time, Thomas Edison and J.P. Morgan were already wiring cities like New York, Chicago, and Philadelphia and providing them with Direct Current. The price was high, but Edison as the most celebrated of all American inventors and Morgan as the country’s richest man (he even loaned money to the United States government when they had cash flow problems) were formidable. Rather than waiting for Alternating Current to get a start, Edison and Morgan went on the offensive and carried out a propaganda campaign implanting in the minds of the consumer that Alternating Current was dangerous. To prove their point they hired operatives to capture stray dogs and publicly electrocute them as a demonstration. At one point they even electrocuted an elephant, which died a horrible death. With Morgan’s power with the government they had legislation introduced to make it mandatory that all death row inmates were to be electrocuted by Alternating Current power. These tactics were covered extensively by the newspapers and coupled with Morgan’s ability to block loans to the Westinghouse Company, they were winning the war of the currents without even having to compete on the basis of who had the best technology.

All this changed when Nunn, who patiently waited several days in the outer office for his meeting with Tesla and Westinghouse, was able to make a deal to build the world’s first commercial grade alternating current power plant in Telluride. The story is that Westinghouse had never heard of Nunn or Telluride and was apprehensive in considering the deal, however, in preparation for the meeting, Nunn had loaded his bags with $100,000 in gold as persuasion, if needed. The money turned out to be the winning argument as Westinghouse was in financial trouble.

As it turned out, the power plant in Telluride was up and operating before Edison and Morgan even heard about it. The deal with Nunn and Telluride had been a fortuitous turn of events and there wasn’t much Edison and Morgan could do about it. The word was out—AC Power Worked—and it could be transmitted miles and power large equipment. The mine and the economy of the town were saved. <snip>

http://www.telluridetechfestival.com/history.html



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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-17-05 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Over long distances HVDC is more efficient than HVAC
The equipment that converts High Voltage Alternating Current to High Voltage Direct Current and back again is expensive, but as a general rule of thumb the decreased power losses of HVDC transmission make up for this expense at distances of a few hundred kilometers.

HVDC is also used for underwater power transmission systems because HVAC lines running under water (or through saturated earth) are inefficient and difficult to maintain.

Another common use for HVDC systems is to link power networks that are not synchronized, either because one network is running at 50Hz and the other at 60Hz, or whenever it is not economical to integrate the control systems of the existing power networks. India is very keen on HVDC networks because they have a great mish-mash of existing power systems they wish to link.

A typical modern HVDC system will run at ±500kV and have a capacity of 1500 MW or more.

HVDC transmission towers are quite distinctive and can be less unsightly than HVAC transmission towers of similar capacities. Personally I hate the look of all high capacity power transmisson lines, but I would much rather look at HVDC lines than HVAC lines.

HVDC towers carry two lines, or a multiple of two lines, but the more common HVAC towers are much bulkier and hold various multiples of three lines, like this:

http://www.earthjustice.org

The HVDC system I am most familiar with is the Pacific Intertie which has a capacity of 3100 MW and runs between Los Angeles and the Columbia River near The Dalles, Oregon.

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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-18-05 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. So, California's intertie sucks the cheap electricity from the Northwest
Locales like the Pacific Northwest and the Tennesee Valley objected to electricity deregulation because they could see the resource-deprived areas like Los Angeles bidding on their cheap hydro-derived electricity and driving up their prices.
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-18-05 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Mexico too...
If it is politically too difficult to build power plants and liquid natural gas terminals in Southern California, then Mexico will do it.

It's my opinion that we are betting far too much of our economy on future LNG imports.

From a purely military standpoint (God Forbid it ever comes to that...) liquid natural gas imports are very fragile and expensive to defend. Hoarding great quantities of imported natural gas will become a very significant national security concern, and this will be a drag on our national economy. So long as our national economy is founded on "cheap energy," a competent nuclear power program is probably a better option than LNG.

Of course the most secure option would be to wean our economy of all oil, coal, and natural gas used as primary energy sources. There is no reason we couldn't put a solar water heating system on every rooftop, and enough "renewable" energy capacity to keep the lights on and the water faucets running.

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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-18-05 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. Thanks. I should obviously learn about HVDC. eom
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-05 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
11. don't make me...
Edited on Mon May-16-05 05:27 PM by phantom power
Rats, image link is broken.
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