Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Global Assessment of High-Altitude Wind Power

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Environment/Energy Donate to DU
 
kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 04:38 PM
Original message
Global Assessment of High-Altitude Wind Power
Edited on Thu Feb-18-10 04:44 PM by kristopher
I usually focus on concrete, ready to go technologies, but since the NEI crowd is trotting out all of their speculative "we can fix nuclear with..." type of articles, I thought it was a good time to share one of my favorites in the area of wind. The conclusion ooffers an interesting insight.

Open access article at:
Energies 2009, 2(2), 307-319; doi:10.3390/en20200307
Article
Global Assessment of High-Altitude Wind Power
Cristina L. Archer 1,* email and Ken Caldeira 2 email

Abstract: The available wind power resource worldwide at altitudes between 500 and 12,000 m above ground is assessed for the first time. Twenty-eight years of wind data from the reanalyses by the National Centers for Environmental Prediction and the Department of Energy are analyzed and interpolated to study geographical distributions and persistency of winds at all altitudes. Furthermore, intermittency issues and global climate effects of large-scale extraction of energy from high-altitude winds are investigated.

6. Conclusions

In this study, we assessed for the first time the available wind power resource worldwide at altitudes between 500 and 12,000 m. We utilized 27 years of data (from the NCEP/DOE global reanalyses) to produce global maps of wind power density at each level (1,000 m, 2,000 m, etc.) and vertical wind distributions at the five largest cities in the world. We found the highest wind power densities near 10,000 m over Japan and eastern China, the eastern coast of the United States, southern Australia, and north-eastern Africa, with median values greater than 10 kW/m2, unthinkable near the ground.

Because jet streams vary locally and seasonally, however, the high-altitude wind power resource is less steady than needed for baseload power without large amounts of storage or continental-scale transmission grids, due to the meandering and unsteady nature of the jet streams.

Climate model simulations for highly idealized high-altitude wind power scenarios show little effect on the climate when deployed at levels comparable to total global electricity demand, but, with much greater deployment, the Earth’s surface cooled, precipitation decreased, and sea ice cover increased.

Because the effects of global climate change on the wind resource aloft are unknown at the moment, future work should include wind speed trend and attribution analyses.


Wired Science
High-Altitude Wind Machines Could Power New York City

The wind blowing through the streets of Manhattan couldn’t power the city, but wind machines placed thousands of feet above the city theoretically could.

The first rigorous, worldwide study of high-altitude wind power estimates that there is enough wind energy at altitudes of about 1,600 to 40,000 feet to meet global electricity demand a hundred times over.

The very best ground-based wind sites have a wind-power density of less than 1 kilowatt per square meter of area swept. Up near the jet stream above New York, the wind power density can reach 16 kilowatts per square meter. The air up there is a vast potential reservoir of energy, if its intermittency can be overcome.

Even better, the best high-altitude wind-power resources match up with highly populated areas including North America’s Eastern Seaboard and China’s coastline.

“The resource is really, really phenomenal,” said Cristina Archer ...
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/06/highaltitudewindpower/

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 04:51 PM
Response to Original message
1. I saw this the other day...
http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/assignment_7&id=7279347

Harnessing the potential of high altitude wind power

Monday, February 15, 2010

MOUNTAIN VIEW, CA (KGO) -- Six miles up in the air lies a vast amount of energy that could solve all our power problems, assuming we can tap into it. Now one local company thinks it has found a way to get at some of it.

...

"We produce an airship that is lighter than air that rotates from the wind to create wind energy," Pierre Rivard of Magenn said.

The sails on an enormous inflatable turbine lined with magnets capture the wind, causing the turbine to spin. That spinning generates electricity.

"We essentially have a paddle boat that rotates in the air," Magenn said.

...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. Magenn web site
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 04:52 PM
Response to Original message
2. "I usually focus on concrete, ready to go technologies"
Edited on Thu Feb-18-10 04:56 PM by FBaggins
Oh please. Can we stay just a little closer to reality?

I mean... wouldn't you want to wait just a little while between this post and the one on compressed gas storage of wind energy? It's a great concept... but "ready to go" normally involved... you know... being ready?

As for this article? It's an interesting concept. There's little need to measure specifics (or care about global warming's impact on wind speed at altitude)... the answer is that there is "plenty" of potential up there. The problem comes in theorizing a way to access it. Any solution obviously involves lighter-than-air systems anchored by cables that can carry the generated power.

This seems far less plausible than wave/tidal energy. Minor change in the jet stream would cost you far too many units.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. They expect to break ground on their first project in 2011.
I consider that "ready to go".
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. Oh yes? Well we've already established
that you often "consider" things to be true that simply aren't the case. :)

A plan to begin construction on the first of its kind plant over a year and a half from now is NOT a technology that is "ready to go".

In addition, the last I read, their technology involved roughly 1/3 natural gas (to heat the air as it is released)... making it somewhat less "green".

And, for the record, when a lobbying group says "we can do 'x' by 2015 IF ten things happen, (and few/none of those things are happening), it's ridiculous to claim that "x" WILL happen by 2015. The most optimistic salesmen for the technology tell you what needs to happen for that to occur... and none of it happens... and you actually consider it PROOF that it WILL happen?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. Well you have your opinion.
Edited on Fri Feb-19-10 12:29 AM by kristopher
And as usual it is a pretty stupid one.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. And yours is flat wrong.
Again, as usual.

Since I doubt your ability to distinguish fact from fantasy, I have no problem doubting your ability to identify "pretty stupid".
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #2
9. Why not tidal?
It probably has the most practicability of any renewable energy system, with predictable intermittency that can be scheduled around. But it is clearly an also-ran.

Why?

Watch TV for an hour or so and count the ads featuring wind turbines. If you don't like TV, flip through a magazine like Time or US News and World Report. Wind turbines are featured prominently in ads for the oil and gas industry, and many other ads with wind turbines have no connection whatsoever with energy. It's like in the 1950s, when the word "atomic" was worked into as many ads as possible, and drawings of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rutherford_model">Rutherford planetary atom were everywhere. (The American Atheists organization still uses a Rutherford atom logo.)

Even though wind energy still accounts for just over 1% of American generating capacity (but less than 1/2% generation) after about a decade of growth and promotion, it is treated as if we will be getting all our energy from wind in a few years. But few countries with active wind energy programs have any plans for more than a 20% contribution by 2030. I wish it weren't so, but implementing it won't be as easy as producing a few ads. Energy production is ALWAYS complicated, risky, financially speculative, and comes with heavy regulatory involvement. (I probably don't have to remind you about these things, but we may have other readers.)

I'm sure that within a year or so, there will be an erection pill advertisement featuring pictures of wind turbines.

--d!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. I don't know. Why not?
I'd consider it inferior to wave energy because while it is a predictable intermittency, it is still intermittent... and those periods of greater or lesser generation are not consistent (in time of day) over the course of the month.

But there's no reason not to pursue it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #9
16. I don't get the connection between your claim and your proof.
You label tidal as an "also ran" but you don't define what that means nor give evidence to support the negative impression you obviously wish to create.

The fact is that the technologies behind tidal are largely "off the shelf" and deployment is expected to proceed rapidly. There has been little interest in developing the technologies before because energy security was pursued via fossil fuels and the focus on carbon was insufficient to alter the momentum possessed by the fossil fuel economy.

There were two events that mark the real turning point for interest in bringing renewable technologies to market. The first was the passage of the Kyoto Protocols and the second was the attack on 911 and the way it was associated with our petroleum dependency.

That merged the energy security and climate change motives and produced a strong move to identify and exploit renewable technologies.

There are huge reserves of tidal/wave/current in close proximity to heavy load centers that are expected to be tapped.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. You also "don't get" what you were reading.
Once again reading IN to the text something that wasn't there.

Hint... the poster was PRO tidal power and didn't understand why it appeared to be getting short shrift.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. I understand what I read perfectly.
The intent of the communication was to disparage both wind and tidal by planting the idea that neither is an acceptable energy source.

The overall conclusion is not undermined by a backhanded nod to one specific operational characteristic.


Sorry Charlie.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. About as much as you usually do
which is to say... not much.

The intent of the communication was to disparage both wind and tidal

Riiight... and he did this by calling it "the most practicability of any renewable energy system" and questioning why anyone would pay attention to just one type of renewable and ignore it?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 05:00 PM
Response to Original message
3. I like the Rotokite better..
http://www.sequoia.it/en/brevetti.htm



The Kitegen can also be used for power generation.

http://www.kitegen.com/en



And then there is Skywind Power.

http://www.skywindpower.com/ww/index.htm

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. It is one of those fields that captures the imagination, isn't it?
The skywind video was what first caught my eye.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. The Skywind has been under development for some time now..
I first read of it several years ago..

And yes, it makes a great deal of sense to capture wind energy at altitude rather than ground level.

The first kite assisted cargo ship has made its maiden voyage.

http://www.skysails.info/english/

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. this was the first thing that came to my mind earlier today...
...when I read this:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x231406
Slow Shipping Saves $$$ and the Environment

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Sounds like they could save 50% or so by slowing and using a Skysail..
And diesels tend to be more efficient under lighter loads too..
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 09:32 PM
Response to Original message
13. That has to be the most unitentionally funny 9 words ever to open a thread in my long years at E&E,
Edited on Thu Feb-18-10 09:45 PM by NNadir
and I've been listening to the horseshit from the Gazprom/Shell/Chevron lobby here, I mean the um, "wind will save us" greenwashing squad for nearly a decade here.


I usually focus on concrete, ready to go technologies,


If I were a dumb airhead with nothing intelligible to say, and the reading and writing level of a lemon rind, I might post 8,000,000 rofl smileys.

Instead I'll simply remark on the gas/car CULTure lobby's well documented delusional statements on "concrete, ready to go technologies" that are readily documentable by anyone who knows how to use something called a library.

In 1976 the famous gas lobbyist Amory Lovins wrote in his very, very, very, very, very, very, very fraudulent job application for consulting fees from Chevron, Shell and other dangerous fossil fuel companies the following line of similar wishful thinking horseshit:

This is not to say that all energy systems need be at domestic scale.
For example, the medium scale of urban neighborhoods and rural villages offers fine prospects for solar collectors—especially for adding collectors to existing buildings of which some (perhaps with large flat roofs) can take excess collector area while others cannot take any. They could be joined via communal heat storage systems, saving on labor cost and on heat losses. The costly craftwork of remodeling Existing systems^"backfitting" idiosyncratic houses with individual collectors—could thereby be greatly reduced. Despite these advantages, medium-scale solar technologies are currently receiving little attention apart from a condominium-village project in Vermont sponsored by the Department of Housing and Urban Development and the ioo-dwelling-unit Mejannes-le-Clap project in France...



Lovins, Amory, "The Road Not Taken," Foreign Affairs October, 1976, page 80.

Actually, if you look, the glib little "solar, and wind and conservation will save us" piece of shit was hawking wildcat coal and car CULTist stuff in that piece of dangerous fossil fuel greenwashing even then, but incredibly, no one noticed, except of course, Chevron, Royal Dutch Shell, Conoco and those sort of folks, who read the job application and naturally hired the little shit.

In fact, the page after page after page after page of Lovinsinian drivel reads very much like the drivel oozing and drooling out of the plastic loving mouthes of our similar anti-nukes today.

Thirty four years later, and hundreds of billions of tons of dangerous fossil fuel waste dumping later, the little stupid shit is still singing his evil malign "nuclear is dead" and "solar and wind are viable and economic" line of horseshit.

Stick it in a shit digester and make methane from the cow cult stuff. It's pure manure.

Ready to go?

http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/alternate/page/renew_energy_consump/table1.html

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. Unintentionally funny?
Edited on Fri Feb-19-10 01:25 AM by kristopher
Dude, you have GOT to start reading the shit YOU write!

Why the hell do you think you get all those ROFL smileys? It's because no one can believe anyone could be so disassociated from reality and the fact that they are is simply hilarious.


BTW, have you read this? Posted with the author's permission:


Nuclear Nonsense

I have known Stewart Brand as a friend for many years. I have admired his original and
iconoclastic work, which has had significant impact. In his new book, Whole Earth Discipline:
an Ecopragmatist Manifesto (Viking), he argues that environmentalists should change their
thinking about four issues—population, nuclear power, genetically modified organisms (GMOs),
and urbanization. Many people have asked me to assess his 41-page chapter on nuclear power, so
I’ll do that here, because I believe its conclusions are greatly mistaken.

Stewart recently predicted I wouldn’t accept his nuclear reassessment. He is quite right. His
nuclear chapter’s facts and logic do not hold up to scrutiny. Over the past few years I’ve sent him
five technical papers focused mainly on nuclear power’s comparative economics and
performance; he says he’s read them, and on p. 98 he even summarizes part of their economic
thesis. Yet on p. 104 he says, “We Greens are not economists” and disclaims knowledge of
economics, saying environmentalists use it only as a weapon to stop projects. Today most
dispassionate analysts think new nuclear power plants’ deepest flaw is their economics. They
cost too much to build and incur too much financial risk. My writings show why nuclear
expansion therefore can’t deliver on its claims: it would reduce and retard climate protection,
because it saves between two and 20 times less carbon per dollar, 20 to 40 times slower, than
investing in efficiency and micropower.

That conclusion rests on empirical data about how much new nuclear electricity actually costs
relative to decentralized and efficiency competitors, how these alternatives compare in capacity
and output added per year, and which can most effectively save carbon. Stewart’s chapter says
nothing about any of these questions, but I believe they’re at the heart of the matter. If nuclear
power is unneeded, uncompetitive, or ineffective in climate protection, let alone all three, then
we need hardly debate whether its safety and waste issues are resolved, as he claims.

In its first half-century, nuclear power fell short of its forecast capacity by about 12-fold in the
U.S. and 30-fold worldwide, mainly because building it cost severalfold more than expected,
straining or bankrupting its owners. The many causes weren’t dominated by U.S. citizen
interventions and lawsuits, since nuclear expectations collapsed similarly in countries without
such events; even France suffered a 3.5-fold rise in real capital costs during 1970–2000. Nor did
the Three Mile Island accident halt U.S. orders: they’d stopped the previous year. Rather,
nuclear’s key challenge was soaring capital cost, and for some units, poor performance.
Operational improvements in the ’90s made the better old reactors relatively cheap to run, but
Stewart’s case is for building new ones. Have their economics improved enough to prevent a
rerun?

On the contrary, a 2003 MIT study found new U.S. nuclear plants couldn’t compete with new
coal- or gas-fired plants. Over the next five years, nuclear construction costs about tripled. Was
this due to pricey commodities like steel and concrete? No; those totaled less than one percent of
total capital cost. Were citizen activists again to blame? No; they’d been neutralized by
streamlined licensing, adverse courts, and Federal “delay insurance.” The key causes seem to be
bottlenecked supply chains, atrophied skills, and a weak U.S. dollar—all widening the cost gap
between new nuclear power and its potent new competitors.

Today’s main alternatives aren’t limited to giant power plants burning coal or natural gas.
Decentralized sources provide from one-sixth to more than half of all electricity in a dozen
industrial countries and, together with more efficient use, deliver the majority of the world’s new
electrical services. Booming orders did lately raise wind-turbine and photovoltaic prices too, but
they’re headed back down as capacity catches up; PVs got one-fourth cheaper just in the past
year, and reactor-scale PV farms compete successfully in California power auctions. New U.S.
windfarms—“firmed” to provide reliable power even if becalmed—sell electricity at less than
typical wholesale prices, or at a third to a half the cost utilities project for new nuclear plants.

Rather than viewing nuclear power within this real-world competitive landscape, Stewart simply
waves away its competitors. He praises efficient use of electricity, but rejects it because he says
it can’t by itself replace all coal and power all global development. He also dismisses wind and
solar power, and omits small hydro, geothermal, waste/biomass combustion, all other
renewables, and cogeneration. Yet worldwide these sources make more electricity than nuclear
power does, and for the past three years, have won about 10–25 times its market share and added
about 20–40 times more capacity each year.

The world in 2008 invested more in renewable power than in fossil-fueled power. Why? Because
renewables are cheaper, faster, vaster, equally or more carbon-free, and more attractive to inves-
tors. Worldwide, distributed renewables in 2008 added 40 billion watts and got $100 billion of
private investment; nuclear added and got zero, despite its far larger subsidies and generally
stronger government support. From August 2005 to August 2008, with new subsidies equivalent
to 100+% of construction cost and with the most robust nuclear politics and capital markets in
history, the 33 proposed U.S. nuclear projects got not a cent of private equity investment.


Nonetheless, Stewart rejects all non-nuclear options, for four fallacious reasons:

• Baseload: Wind and photovoltaics can’t keep the lights on because they can’t run 24/7.
• Footprint: Photovoltaics need about 150–175 times, and windfarms from 600+ to nearly
900 times, more land than nuclear power to produce the same electricity.
• Portfolio: We need every tool for combating climate change, including nuclear power.
• Government role: The climate imperative trumps economics, so governments everywhere
must and will do what France did—ensure that nuclear power gets built, regardless of
economics or dissent.

I believe each claim is unsupportable:

• Baseload. The electricity system doesn’t rely on any plant’s ability to run continuously;
rather, all plants together supply the grid, and the grid serves all loads. That’s necessary
because no kind of power plant can run all the time, as Stewart says they must do to meet
steady loads. I repeat: there is not and has never been a need for any particular plant or
kind of plant to run all the time, and none can. All power plants fail, varying only in their
failures’ size, duration, frequency, predictability, and cause. Solar cells’ and windpower’s
variation with night and weather is no different from the intermittence of coal and nuclear
plants, except that it affects less capacity at once, more briefly, far more predictably, and
is no harder and probably easier and cheaper to manage. In short, the ability to serve
steady loads is a statistical attribute of all plants on the grid, not an operational
requirement for one plant. Variability (predictable failure) and intermittence (unpredic-
table failure) must be managed by diversifying type and location, forecasting, and
integrating with other resources. Utilities do this every day, balancing diverse resources
to meet fluctuating demand and offset outages. Even with a largely (or probably a
wholly) renewable grid, this is not a significant problem or cost, either in theory or in
practice—as illustrated by areas that are already 30–40% windpowered.

• Footprint. Stewart understates nuclear power’s land-use by about 43-fold by omitting all
land used by exclusion zones and the nuclear fuel chain. Conversely, he includes the
space between wind or solar equipment—unused land commonly used for farming,
grazing, wildlife, and recreation. That’s like claiming that the area of the lampposts in a
parking lot is the area of the parking lot, even though 99% of it is used for parking,
driving, and walking. Properly measured, per kilowatt-hour produced, the land made
unavailable for other uses is about the same for ground-mounted photovoltaics as for
nuclear power, sometimes less—or zero for building-mounted PVs sufficient to power
the world many times over. Land actually used per kWh is up to thousands of times
smaller for windpower than for nuclear power. If land-use were an important criterion for
picking energy systems, which it’s generally not, it would thus reverse Stewart’s footprint
conclusion.

• Portfolio. The one paper he cites as proof that we need all energy options actually says
the opposite. There is no analytic basis for his conclusion, and there’s strong science to
the contrary. We can’t afford to stuff our energy portfolio indiscriminately with some of
everything, and we shouldn’t: some options are less worthy and effective than others. The
more you fear climate change, the more judiciously you should invest to get the most
solution per dollar and per year. Nuclear flunks both these tests.

• Government. If nuclear power isn’t needed, worsens climate change (vs. more effective
solutions) and energy security, and can’t compete in the marketplace despite uniquely big
subsidies—all evidence-based findings unexamined in Stewart’s chapter—then his
nuclear imperative evaporates. Of course, a few countries with centrally planned energy
systems, mostly with socialized costs, are building reactors: over two-thirds of all nuclear
plants under construction are in China, Russia, India, or South Korea. But that’s more
because their nuclear bureaucracies dominate national energy policy and face little or no
competition in technologies, business models, and ideas. Nuclear power requires such a
system. The competitors beating nuclear power thrive in democracies and free markets.

Stewart’s reputation and his valuable prior contributions to clear thinking for a better world may
win his nuclear views some attention. Yet judged on its merits, not his history, this nuclear chap-
ter’s assertions can only worsen climate and security risks.
—Amory B. Lovins
Chairman and Chief Scientist, Rocky Mountain Institute (www.rmi.org)
13 October 2009
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
petronius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 12:39 PM
Response to Original message
21. And even better - we can cover them with advertising and mount surveillance devices on them!
:)

Seriously, I think that's a prety cool idea. But if the NIMBYs get all worked up over windmills, this would make heads explode...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Sat May 04th 2024, 03:44 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Environment/Energy Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC