Der Spiegel's Map of the New Coal Plants Going Up in Germany.

[NNadir]

http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,1151385,00.jpg

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,547555-3,00.html">The Impending Power Gap: Where Will Germany's Energy Come From ...


I thought wind and solar was going to supply 100% of Germany's energy, although I was sort of, kinda, in a way, after a fashion, maybe, remotely curious about why Gazprom was paying Gerhard Schroeder 300,000 euros per year to install gas lines to Russia, and why Nabucco was paying Joschka Fischer about the same amount to do the same thing.

I don't know who's going to cash in on the coal. Maybe Tritten can get on that one, by issuing a lot of platitudes about how Germany could build CGS plants by the 25th century or some other soothsaying.

[glinda]

1. well that's depressing....

[joshcryer]

2. *sigh* We're fucked.

[Nihil]

3. Great ...

Between this post and http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x229062">this one, the future is looking
a lot darker ...

:-(

[TxRider]

4. And I thought we were putting up too many

New coal plants going up in Texas...

[joshcryer]

9. Deserves its own post. Have an idea of combined cycle?

I bet combined cycle is three times that.

[TxRider]

15. Hard to keep up with

We have a very large natural gas electric generating capacity.

There was a stretch of time where it seemed every refinery, plastics plant etc. was putting in it's own generating capacity, and selling it to the grid and making steam for their own use after we deregulated and deconstructed out infrastructure. Enron made a mint building out gas turbine facilities all up and down the coast.

Coal has been cheaper than Nat gas though, and with regulators pricing electricity mainly by natural gas prices, coal plants are more profitable.

Hard to keep up with all the players in the Texas electrical market....

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[joshcryer]

29. Terrifying to say the least.

No words, really.

[TxRider]

30. It's not all bad

We also have many non profit electric coops, the largest onshore wind farms in the nation, and soon the largest offshore wind farms as well, and I hear some big solar is in the works.

Kind of a wild west of energy, since the grid is not interconnected with the national grids and isn't under all the federal regulations etc.

And we get some choice as consumers which retailer we buy power from.

[hunter]

5. Solar, wind, and anti-nuke was the best thing that ever happened to the coal industry.

:(

[PHIMG]

6. OP thinks only Nuclear is good

Nevermind that every megawatt of installed solar or wind is one megawatt less that does not need to be installed with coal or nuclear.

MODERN ENERGY : No fuel, no waste, no emissions.

Everything else should be banned.

Necessity is the mother of invention.

Coal companies will keep building coal plants because it's what they know. UNTIL government forces them the change.

The two biggest lies in energy: CLEAN COAL and SAFE NUCLEAR.

[tinrobot]

7. But we all agree coal is bad.

[PHIMG]

8. OP loves COAL.

OP seizes on any alarming coal news to dishonestly cheer-lead for messy, expensive, scary, fuel-source dependent, NIMBY Nuclear power.

In OP's world view anyone who put a solar panel on their roof has set back the nuke industry, and therefore helped build a coal plant and endangered the planet. It's beyond silly but that's the core of his argument. Competing with Nuke = Helping Coal.

MODERN PUBLIC POWER NOW.

It's time for a national solar park!

Build a rail line to bring in raw materials to the middle of the dessert, build the factory to build the parts in a vertically integrated manner, and spend the next 30 years building out a multiple GIGAWATT solar plant from the center out. Site an Air Force base to protect it from terrorist attack. Massively overbuild it and put in a plant to use some of it to create hydrogen from it liquid hydrogcarbon fuels so our military can still operate after the next oil blockade.

[joshcryer]

12. OP bashes coal. OP uses it as an opportunity to bash solar / wind / etc, though.

Being against coal (and other fossil fuels) should be our primary concern.

Note the silence by many "anti-nukers" in this thread. Note the comments by undeniable environmentalists (hatrack most notably) in this thread.

[PHIMG]

13. How much oil does it take to dig up and transport nuclear fuels?

And why does it make any sense to build more power plants fixed to the availability of a rare commodity? It doesn't! Unless you own a mine or a construction firm or manufacturer for parts for said plants. Or get paid directly or indirectly from one of these special interests.

Sun and Wind means real energy independence. The government needs to do more and nuke advocates need to give up the "if you oppose nukes you support coal" logical fallacy.

No matter how SAFE nuke gets or whatever COOL WAY we find to recycle or otherwise solve the waste problem there is no getting over the fact that NUKE plants run on FUEL. Rare, limited, hard to get at, expensive, vulnerable to commodity spikes FUEL.

If it uses fuel or creates a waste product it is not MODERN ENERGY and should be get any investment, public or private.

[FBaggins]

14. ??? Which one is a rare commodity?

The article is talking about coal and the thread has run toward a nuclear conversation.

Neither is in any way a "rare commodity."

Sun and Wind means real energy independence.

Yes... it means that when it's really cold and dark out, you will be "independent" of the heat your family needs to survive.

[PHIMG]

16. You dont' know the OP

every post is about how great nuclear is and how if you dont support nuclear you are supporting coal. check his posts. he has the clearest agenda of anyone on DU, bar none.

[FBaggins]

17. I was replying to you... not the OP

You refered to either coal or nuclear (presumably nuclear) as relying on a rare/expensive fuel source. That's simply untrue.

Did you think that you had answered the question?

if you dont support nuclear you are supporting coal

If you don't support nuclear, you ARE supporting some form of fossil fuel... which is part of why I replied to you. Many would love to pretend that truly clean sources of energy are adequate for our needs. That you can oppose nuclear without accepting the consequences of that position. That all new power needs in the future can be met with these cleanest options.

That simply isn't true. Just because the OP won't live in that fantasy world isn't my problem.

[PHIMG]

18. Coal and nuclear fuel is rare and expensive

Relative to the sun and the wind. don't be intentionally stupid.

[Dead_Parrot]

19. So, wind and sun are plentiful?

It's just I can't help noticing that it's currently night in Germany, and there's not a lot of wind

http://www.xcweather.co.uk/?Loc=DE

[FBaggins]

20. You're going to post that...

...and then accuse someone else of being "intentionally stupid" ???

Nuclear fuel is by no means "rare". Yours was an absolute statement, not "relative to the sun/wind." The number of quarters in existence may be smaller than the number of pennies, but that doesn't make them rare.

You said "Rare, limited, hard to get at, expensive, vulnerable to commodity spikes" - which is untrue regardless of how common sunlight is. The price of uranium could go up tenfold (and it won't) and it still wouldn't make that substantial a difference in the price of power.

Solar/Wind ALSO use up resources... just not as "fuel" - which makes for clever (if ineffective) spin. And when you start talking about a nationwide system of such generation that could actually be a reliable primary source of power... the natural resource usage goes up substantially

Besides... relative to the power options that can actually provide reliable 24/7 power all over the country... it's by far the least "rare".

[PHIMG]

21. How much fuel does a solar panel need in a 30 years life span.

ZERO. NONE.

It requires no FUEL.

How many safety inspections does a solar panel require? None or at worst 1 at the time of installation (depending on local codes).

How much security does a solar panel require to prevent terrorists from rendering 100 square miles of homeland unsuitable for habitation? ZERO b/c its not fueled by a weapon of mass destruction.

CSP with storage can and does provide 24/7 generation. Wind parks with batteries can and will provide 24/7 generation. A national or international super grid can and will ensure 24/7 availablity of modern energy.

Quit spouting off outdated knocks against modern power.

Nuke = too expensive to build (just ask wall Street)

Dangerous waste that has to be dealt with.

A fuel that has to be mined from the earth, and is depleted from using it, from countries that may or may not like us in the future. and shipped across the globe.

No matter what how often the pro-nuke cheerleaders on DU yell "Coal... booga-boogga lets build NUKES"... the "nuclear Renaissance" ... that irradiated dog just won't hunt. They might get billions in pork from Obama but its not going to materially impact the need for a massive buildout of Modern waste free, fuel free modern energy.

SAY YES TO MODERN POWER AND NO TO Weapons of Mass Destruction Power!

[Dead_Parrot]

22. It's currently 3:30 AM in Germany

How much fuel is that solar panel getting? Roughly?

Do you have any glorious plans for windless nights - like tonight - Or do you expect the people of Germany to lve in caves?

According to your profile, you're posting from NY - Where it's currently pitch black, with an average wind speed of 8mph - below the cut-off for most turbines.

So are you posting via a clockwork analytical engine, or are you just burning fossil fuels and spouting rubbish? I see your website is still up, does that run off magic?

If you are going to spout shit about solar, at least do it during daylight.

Otherwise you just look like a fucking hypocrite.

[PHIMG]

23. Why must you ignore all my points?

Have you ever heard of GRID TIED solar? So that you make more in the am, feed it into the grid and draw off the grid at night?

Have you heard of Concentrated Solar with storage? That generates power 24/7?

I imagine yes, because I've talked about them upthread. You choose to ignore them. I guess your talking points don't work unless you ignore how modern energy works.

You are in Germany...which has some of the best success with solar power despite having low solar isolation.

Why is it that Germany would make such great investments in solar? A: Because every megawatt of solar is a megawatt of less of dirty power that does not require a lifetime supply of a rare dirty and dangerous commodity - oil, gas, and nuke.

Why is it that pro-nuke people have to run down solar and wind power to sell nuke? If the case was so great they wouldn't need to use the solar = helping big coal logical fallacy and ignoring all the advancements in solar and wind since 1970.

Newsflash Nuke power doesn't run the entire country, either. Newsflash Nuke plants go down for extended periods of time and require tons of expensive safety systems and inspections to prevent a meltdown that could kill millions.

Newsflash you aren't winning your argument by ignoring inconvenient facts and knocking down your strawmen.

[Dead_Parrot]

24. What points?

Yes, germany are crazy for Solar. In case you missed the OP, they are also building a shitload of coal fired power. Why do think that is? because they like chimneys?

Grid-ties only work if you have something else feeding the grid. As I said, on a windless night in NY, you have some fucking balls to claim that's working.

Storage? Point me to a single TJ storage unit - enough to keep NY going for 26 minutes - and I'll buy you a fat cigar.

Yet here you are, on a windless night in NY, posting about how great renewables are. Truly awesome.

[PHIMG]

27. It's always windy somewhere buddy.

People with solar panel love it in Germany.

It will be on every roof in the country soon.

The fuel-based economy will end. Or maybe you are playing for the wrong team.

[Dead_Parrot]

28. So, you think Germans just like chimneys?

Whatever. I hope Santa brings you a bicycle.

[FBaggins]

26. "Have you ever heard of GRID TIED solar? "

Sure! Have you?

That's where you tie clean cheap power that you can't rely on, to generation capability that you CAN rely on (which isn't wind).

If you substantially overbuild on wind power AND transmission grid, then you can significantly reduce some of wind's reliability problems. But you can't get anywhere close to the reliability that would be acceptable to the average american (who expects power >99.9% of the time). Coming close (say 95% of the time, which wind can't even come CLOSE to guaranteeing) would mean significant economic/social disruption (as well as many deaths if it happens at the wrong time of year).

[FBaggins]

25. You ARE kidding, right?

CSP with storage can and does provide 24/7 generation. Wind parks with batteries can and will provide 24/7 generation.

You don't actually believe that do you?

That's a ridiculously false statement. Not even in the same zip code as the truth.

Ever seen the world's largest battery? At 1300 tons and 2000 square meters, it's designed to provide a backup for the tiny city of Fairbanks, AL - to make sure that people have time to start generators before they lose power.

It can handle the load for all of seven minutes. And you think we're going to have wind parks "with batteries" that can handle a day (or six) with little sun or wind?

Batteries for wind parks aren't to back up the grid, they either supply emergency power to the generators so that they can adjust blade pitch when the wind is too strong or too weak... or they even out the fluctuations in power that wind necessarily creates (fluctuations from minute to minute, not from week to week).

A national or international super grid can and will ensure 24/7 availablity of modern energy.

Can't and won't. Not even if you overbuilt by more than 2:1. Probably not even at 3:1.

How many safety inspections does a solar panel require?

I notice that you didn't list wind in there. It couldn't be that with a tiny percentage of world power supplied, it has already had hundreds of incidents that make clear that it needs plenty of "safety inspections".

[PHIMG]

31. The lies and distortions in your reply are astounding

LIE: Solar can't be 24/7

http://cleantech.com/news/5536/startup-247-solar-storage-breakthrough

Unveiling it for the first time at the World Future Summit in Abu Dhabi, Solar Fusion Power Director Wayne Bliesner described the system as having ten times the density of conventional molten salt solar storage.

"Twenty-four hour solar storage becomes easy with this technology," he told the Cleantech Group. "We could do thirty to forty hours."

The company's approach uses calcium hydride, a simple, non-toxic salt.

Under Solar Fusion's plan, solar heat is collected by an array of heliostats directed to a central down mirror, eliminating the requirement for a power tower.

The heat, focused on a power head immersed in liquid calcium, chemically separates the calcium and hydrogen during the day. At night, the hydrogen, having been collected in a separate tank, is pumped back and reacts with the calcium to reform as calcium hydride.

The reaction runs at approximately 1,000 degrees, and powers a dual shell Stirling engine of Bliesner's design to create power after dark.

"We can generate electricity continuously unlike other solar technologies," said Bleisner, inventor of the technology and a former Boeing engineer.

YOU LIED ABOUT 24/7 Power Generation from Solar so why should anyone believe the rest of your drivel.

DISTORTION - Wind power requires inspection, therefore its as unsafe as Nuclear
Please tell me of an area in the world that was rendered uninhabitable because of a malfunction of a wind turbine. PLEASE ENLIGHTEN ME. Meanwhile I can list two for nuclear : Chernoble, Three Mile Island.

[FBaggins]

33. Let me know when you're ready to point out one of them.

Because you have yet to do so.

LIE: Solar can't be 24/7

Which you disprove by referencing a hypothetical, CLAIMED technology that is not only unproven, but which would not (even if true), dispute the point???

"We COULD do 30-40 hours" doesn't get you to 24/7 reliability. Sorry. I'm not sure where you live, but sometimes these thingies they call "clouds" can cover an area for many days.

DISTORTION - Wind power requires inspection, therefore its as unsafe as Nuclear


That's your strawman. Sorry if I won't fall for it. All I did was correct YOUR implied distortion that it requires no inspection. It does. And there have been hundreds of accidents that show that it's unsave to live within a mile or two of some units.

Meanwhile I can list two for nuclear : Chernoble, Three Mile Island.

50% is still an F. Sorry.

[PHIMG]

36. LOL. You really make me laugh. n/t

Keep shilling big boy. Nobodies buying it.

[FBaggins]

37. Glad to entertain... sorry I couldn't loan you a clue.

Only one of us just offered an non-existent technology pitched by a company looking for funding as proof that one of solar's largest drawbacks had magically been solved and your former boneheaded statements were not so embarrassingly wrong.

THAT is what should make you laugh. That, or the fact that you felt an obsessive need to post a reply even though you knew you had no leg to stand on... so we're left with "you really make me laugh".

Like I said. Let me know when you're ready to point out one of those "lies and distortions" - I won't be holding my breath.

[ncguy]

32. The comparison

with solar cells is: how much energy to manufacture one vs. how much energy do they produce in, say 25 years?

[OnlinePoker]

40. And what about the environmental damage to the desert? n/t

[joshcryer]

10. Irrelevant. I was ignorant of Germany's new coal.

I'm glad I learned of it.

[FBaggins]

11. No it isn't.

Every megawatt of installed solar or wind is maybe 1/3 megawatt less that doesn't need to be installed with coal/gas/nuclear/etc. They're great as secondary power supplies, but they can't handle the load on their own.

Everything else should be banned.

What a ridiculous statement. What about really cold overcast days? You going to "ban" heat in the winter now?

[Kolesar]

34. Cheney called for a thousand coal plants in the US, but they were not built

Not all of them, certainly. There are lists of all of the cancelled coal plants. They are being cancelled because of high construction costs and because of a softer demand for electricity.

What was the number for new wind power in 2009? Around 9,000 Megawatts, IIRC.

[FBaggins]

35. A little more than 9,000 megawatts actually

Almost 10 gigawatts in new wind capacity (not that it ever produces that much of course). Enough for almost two and a half million homes if all were running at full capacity at the same time (which, again, doesn't happen).

What does that replace? a handful of the largest coal plants? Probably not even that much.

[Kolesar]

38. How much coal fired power was installed last year in the US?

To get back to the point of the Der Spiegel article

[FBaggins]

39. 43 were under construction as of mid-year

For a combined 22,000+ MW.

No new plants were approved or started during the year (and more than two dozen were defeated or canceled).