The Doubly-Important Strategic Need for a Hydrogen Economy

[Ian David]

You know where is a great place for wind and solar energy farms?

I'm thinking of someplace that's sunny and dry and hot and has large uninhabited, open areas hundreds of miles wide.

The Middle East.

OK, sandstorms may be a problem for wind and solar energy production in The Middle East. I imagine that solar panels could be "shuttered" closed during sandstorms, or that wind turbines could be created with a method for withdrawing the blades.

Perhaps inflatable turbines could be "sucked inside" the tower during sandstorms, and solar panels can be covered in shutters to be blown free of sand using jet turbines once the weather is clear.

And here are some reasons why I feel we need to develop our own Hydrogen Economy before other countries do so.

Middle Eastern solar power could be used to separate hydrogen from water to create hydrogen fuel.

Also, if wind and solar power fueled the local power needs of Middle East countries, that could mean they would have more oil to sell to The West.

For example, if there were millions of electric cars in The Middle East charged by electricity from wind and solar energy-- and all their homes and factories were powered by it-- they could create a new economic boom in the region.

Also, imagine if ports in The Middle East became a hub for electric or hydrogen-powered warships, cruise ships, and freighters.

Huge Maglev trains could drive goods across The Middle East to ports in Iran, Kuwait, and Iraq where they would be shipped around the world in hydrogen-powered ships.

The maglev trains could also be used to distribute hydrogen fuel, large batteries, and spun-up flywheels for energy use throughout the region.

Howstuffworks "How Maglev Trains Work"
http://travel.howstuffworks.com/maglev-train.htm

Energy Savers: Electric Vehicle Batteries
... For example, flywheel batteries do not store their energy as chemical ... into electrical energy. Flywheels are still in research and development. ...
www.eere.energy.gov/consumerinfo/factsheets/fa1.html

And if you're building maglev trains, you can also build magnetic rail guns.

<4.0> Space Guns
... Although a larger prototype was built to perform experiments and train gun ... Maglev systems have been much more thoroughly investigated than railguns ...
www.vectorsite.net/tarokt4.html

You could use magnetic rail guns to cheaply launch payloads into space, deliver freight around the world-- or to drop an atomic warhead anywhere on earth.

It could also be used to launch nuclear waste into space-- or down upon our heads.

To launch astronauts, tourists, business travelers, and other "fragile cargo" into space they could use powerful lasers on the ground to propel "lightcraft" space capsules into orbit and eventual solar sail powered craft to the outer planets and beyond.

See: Laser Powered SpaceCraft to Launch MicroSats Washington DC - December 14, 1997
http://www.spacedaily.com/news/laser-97b.html

Laser-Boosted Rocket Sets Altitude Record
http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/laser_craft_001103-1.html


I'd be willing to bet that a maglev train system developed for "peaceful purposes" could be quickly, cheaply and stealthily converted into a rail gun weapon by (sort of) simply adding an upward-pointing accelerating track snuck-in overnight on a couple of large trucks.

See:
Railgun Information
http://www.physics.northwestern.edu/classes/2001Fall/Phyx135-2/19/railgun.htm

MAGRAC - A railgun simulation program
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1982ITM....18...94D


Here's a cheap way for the mid-east to make our lives miserable:

1) Solar and wind power are used to separate hydrogen from sea water. At the end of that process, you're pretty much left with oxygen and salt.
2) The cheap wind and solar energy is used to power magnetic rail guns that launch the salt into space inside ceramic shells to rain down onto American water supplies and crops. Some of the salt could be used to wreak havoc upon satellites in orbit.

On the other hand, I bet clouds of salt burning-up in the atmosphere would create a great fireworks display!

Perhaps if we made this clear to our politicians, they would expedite our development of alternative energy.

If we don't do it, we may be at the mercy of the same mid-east governments for the next hundred years as they develop a monopoly on terrestrial and space commerce systems as well as the hydrogen economy.

Except this time they'll have space-based weapons platforms placed in orbit by magnetic rail guns and fleets of silent hydrogen-powered submarines.

We need to create a new American hydrogen-based economy not just because freedom from foreign oil is of great strategic importance-- but also because freedom from foreign hydrogen sources is going to be of even greater importance.

I may be wrong about some (or even many) of these things, but I think it bears discussion and examination.

Related Thread:
Rep. With Wind Farm Ties Denies Power Play
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1376327#

[oddmanout]

1. Interesting post

Thank you for the links and the thought provoking post.




:dem:

[hunter]

2. Wild Post.

Have you, by any chance, ridden Disney's California Screamin' or any of the other new roller coasters powered by linear motors?

[Ian David]

3. No, I haven't ridden them. I haven't done a coaster in years

Anyway, by "wild" do you mean:

1) Cool

or

2) Chock-full of tinfoil hats

For what it's worth, I'm willing to admit that some of my ideas may be tinfoil-worthy and I'm more than willing to accept the critiques of those more knowledgeable than myself.

[hunter]

7. Both.

Cool and Chock-full of tinfoil hats.

"Chock-full of tinfoil hats" is good when it escapes the end zones and expands the field.

The first step towards innovation is to imagine something different.

[Selteri]

4. Good interesting post, but there is a need to go beyond Hydrogen

there are so many fuel sources that need to be used together to create a truly green economy where almost everything can be recycled or reused, it is merely a matter of opening your eyes completely.

[dcfirefighter]

5. Hydrogen isn't necessarily the answer

I think that if externalities to using various energy sources were collected, the country would develop an economic and ecologically sound mixture of conservation, improved efficiency, and use of a variety of alternative energy sources.

It's my understanding that hydrogen is still more of an energy storage medium than a energy source.

As for linear induction motors, I'd like to see a full scale version of one of these built somewhere:
http://www.skywebexpress.com/

[Karthun]

6. ..

Hydrogen can never become an energy source. The only "green" way to harvest hydrogen is from the electrolisys of water, and thanks to the 2nd law of thermodynamics, more energy will be consumed removeing hydrogen from the water then will be made in the recombinding of hydrogen and oxygen.

Personaly my money is on ethanol and biodeisel, though we do have some major problems to overcome, esp for those who live in the frozen tundra for 6 months out of the year.

[Coastie for Truth]

9. My money is on using hydrogen as a way to transport energy

from a "nuclear reactor - electrolytic cell/water electrolysis" complex to a "fuel cell end user".

The second law loss comes from "over voltage" for the electrolytic decomposition of water at the "nuclear reactor - electrolytic cell/water electrolysis" complex" and "over voltage" for the fuel cell process. Plus I2R in the fuel cell, plus Goggle "Tafel Slope" (which is another way of saying I2R in the electrolytic cell and in the fuel cell)

Let's face it - it is either nuclear power or an infinite loop of endless, no-win, resource wars (of which Iraq is Resource War #1) which leave everybody's economy worse off.

[dcfirefighter]

10. How about

Using copper and aluminum wires to transport energy?

Trains run fine on electric power. Houses run fine on electric. Factories run fine on electric, though sometimes they need heat.

Airplanes need fuel. Ships need fuel (or wind). Biodiesel can do that.

We need to get away from a lifestyle that DEPENDS on cars and trucks towards one that merely ALLOWS cars and trucks.

We don't need a hydrogen economy, we need a sustainable economy. Pay for what you take, not what you make.

[Coastie for Truth]

11. I'm a transit rider - put < 4000 miles/year on a car

but - whether it's fuel cells or whatever - nuclear power plant generated hydrogen is A way to get the 25% of our energy that goes to transportation.

Not THE ONLY way, just A way.

[NNadir]

8. Wow. Far out. Like, mind blowing. Heavy.

I wish people understood that hydrogen isn't energy, but rather is a (dangerous and dubious) way of storing energy. It has poor economics, and in general, a worse environmental impact that coal, and coal is certainly the most dangerous form of energy in wide use on the planet today.

BTW, I'm a very pronuclear guy, but quite possibly the worst use of so called "nuclear waste" is launching it into space. (I have described a possible exception in post #107 here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=115&topic_id=5609&mesg_id=5609) People are obsessed with what they call "nuclear waste," even though it has not been proven dangerous in any way. No one has died from its storage. When someone actually dies from it, we can re-evaluate its danger relative to the waste of other forms of energy in a meaningful way, but for now so called "nuclear waste" is infinitely safer than other forms of energy wastes since, lim (x->0) 1/x is infinite.

Once in a while I manage to build up some fragment of hope in these dire times. I read this stuff and I start feeling doomed all over again.

[Coastie for Truth]

12. Convert the heat from nuclear decomposition to electricity by

Sabbatier-Peltier Effect (that's how thermocouples work) devices.

I read somewhere that geothermal "originally" comes from nuclear decay down deep in the earth's core. So, why not take this rad waste to generate heat -> and use a Sabbatier-Peltier style "no moving parts"/"Solid state" generator heated by thermal neutrons for electricity.

[dcfirefighter]

13. Didn't they used to use those

for pacemakers, and satellite power?

What'd they use for the old soviet lighthouses?

And just for kicks, though this potential technology is reviled by the rail people, what do y'all think of Personal Rapid Transit? The idea being that transit efficiency increases as the Batch Flow of trains and even buses approaches the more continuous, or rather quantum flow of cars. A 2D network rather than a 1D line-haul of light (cheap) railways, and small 'pods' carry people, 1-3 at a time directly from there origin to their destination.
http://www.skywebexpress.com/130d_comparisons.shtml