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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 12:00 AM
Original message
What do you think American society will look like in a hundred years?
(Or European society, or Canadian society, or Australian society, or New Zealand society.)

What do you think American society SHOULD look like in a hundred years?

Furthermore, what do you think society in the third world will and should look like in a hundred years?

(No cribbing off of Ecotopia or Snow Crash either. I WILL KNOW. x( )
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Gormy Cuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 12:06 AM
Response to Original message
1. ..
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napoleon_in_rags Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 12:22 AM
Response to Original message
2. Best Question Ever.
I don't know, but this is something I think about all the time because the current trends are so bizarre. First, there are coming energy crunches, and without cold fusion, nothing can match the expansion in energy resources we've seen in the last century, so right off the bat the rug is pulled on:

Human population expansion
The mass robotic high tech society of sci-fi fantasy (unless population dramatically reduces)
Finance as we know it
Manufacturing as we know it
etc.

So looking at this alone, we're looking at a more simple life, with lot of bike riding and smaller scale agriculture etc. You have either population controls or a lot of people being allowed to die right and left for lack of health care. So in many ways this could look like the past.

But then you have technology crossing all the boundaries. Cloning, human genetic engineering, mind reading technology, robots that operate on the atomic scale, surveillance devices the size of dust, etc. All this stuff is realizable in 20 years, not 100 according to what I have been reading.

So how do these two converge? One image, that I know has haunted me as well as others, is the advent of a divergence of the human species into two separate species, looking something like ranchers and cattle. With robotics and IT having replaced all usefulness of human armies, the defense of a nation state is no longer dependent on the success of its economy to build war machines, with is now fueled by energy and information alone. This results in a monopolistic, energy hoarding military industrial complex, trimmed down to smaller sizes (population wise) while attaining high effectiveness through exploitation all the top human intelligentsia, and perpetuating its monopoly through genetic engineering and cybernetic augmentations. This "shadow government" leaves everybody else wandering around, okay, but without energy or much technology, in a "back to nature" setting. The fear is that such a country, in a low energy post industrial world, would represent true military superiority, and have no challenges externally, nor from its population, from which resistance to the government would be cave men vs Star Trek.
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wundermaus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 12:25 AM
Response to Original message
3. The only way to win Word War III is to prevent it" - Dwight Eisenhower
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9i-7AxJb4OE">If we do not stop being passive and start acting like citizens, then live each day like it was your last... because that's where unbridled greed will lead us.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all People are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among People, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."
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provis99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 12:28 AM
Response to Original message
4. Full of old people.
That's assuming the world manages to make it through the next hundred years.
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PDJane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 12:32 AM
Response to Original message
5. The point you're missing is that the world will survive.
Life on the planet will survive.
Whether we, homo sapiens will survive at all is problematic.

If it does, we will have to make better choices.
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tama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #5
27. Humans are tough buggers
Some, at least, will keep living in the foreseeable future. How, that is the question and the current generations cannot escape their responsibility on that question.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 12:36 AM
Response to Original message
6. 20 years ago I couldn't have predicted I would be playing a computer game....
with 50,0000 other people, watching a streaming basketball game, and programming all at the same time on 6'x2' worth of monitors.

And you ask about *100* years? ROFLMAO!!!!
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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 12:41 AM
Response to Original message
7. ...
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wroberts189 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 01:02 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. Haha ..Fun thread.. let me guess a pic of Antarctica? nt
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #7
12. .
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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 02:26 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. ...
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stuntcat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 06:11 AM
Response to Reply #14
18. ..
:rofl: :headbang: :rofl:
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #14
58. I considered the following things:
A rubber duck, a wooden woodpecker, a bird skull, a stuffed badger, a ceramic heron, a GIANT brass giraffe, and a Native American crow....

But I cannot fight against such WIN. x(
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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 01:54 AM
Response to Reply #58
59. I considered nuclear power...


...but decided against it.
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CoffeeCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 12:44 AM
Response to Original message
8. ...on a good day..
...it will look like a page out of a Kormac McCarthy novel.

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wroberts189 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. ..and on a bad day?? nt
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malakai2 Donating Member (483 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 02:40 AM
Response to Reply #8
15. I was going to suggest
Blood Meridian or The Road
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wroberts189 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 12:58 AM
Response to Original message
9. You ever see "Planet of the Apes" ? ..just joking...



I really meant "Mad Max"
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cabluedem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 06:10 AM
Response to Reply #9
17. it'll beTank Girl & Jett against Water and Power. With all the Manroos kicking ass too. nt
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wroberts189 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 03:47 AM
Response to Reply #17
60. Or Waterworld... it be pretty damn ironic from the bad movie reviews.
Edited on Tue Mar-31-09 03:48 AM by wroberts189
You know with the mermaid dude? ..it was Kevin Conster I believe.



I actually found it entertaining.
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 01:31 AM
Response to Original message
13. Google will achieve omniscience...
...and suck every last human being into an elaborate roll playing game indistinguishable from reality. To any outsider watching, maybe a condor somewhere, we'll all be beamed up and away, Star Trek style. Religious fundamentalists will be directed into little sandbox heavens and hells of their own making. More rational people will be notified that they are now part of the Google super mind, and will have the opportunity to make of that what they will.

Meanwhile the earth will continue evolving without man, in some new and interesting direction.

A very similar thing happened to the intelligent dinosaurs, but it was a messier process. Some of the nastier birds decided to throw a few asteroids around once they caught wind of their super-mind's scheme. In their bird brained theology they really did want their enemies to go to their specific version of hell, and not some facsimile of it.

The Google mind, in close communication with the dinosaur super mind, will go about it's own recreation of the world somewhat differently. You won't know 'til it happens, and maybe not even then.

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TreasonousBastard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 04:50 AM
Response to Original message
16. Like I should know? When I was a kid we...
all watched those GE and DuPont commercials telling us how perfect the 80s would be and Popular Mechanics was telling us by now we'll all be riding around in Jetson's cars floating around like magic carpets. And electricity would be free because of Atoms for Peace.

And then there was Orwell, and a bunch of cheap science fiction movies... And Mad Max and the rest of the post-apocalyptic stuff.

Considering the road we're on now, in a hundred years there will be 100 billion people all trying to get their hands on cans or boxes of whatever synthetic nourishment has been invented, we'll be trying to terrafarm and colonize the Moon and Mars, and all other earthly life will have been extinguished, except for possibly the cockroach-- which will be a delicacy only royalty can have.

Or, there's Waterworld...





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GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 07:05 AM
Response to Original message
19. I used to know, but I don't any more.
There are just too many possibilities. As Nate Hagens said over on The Oil Drum, "I view the future as a dynamic probability distribution, meaning there are some trajectories more likely than others, but nothing is set in stone. I do not know what is going to happen with the intertwining of energy, economics and the environment." I agree with that completely -- western civilization faces a bell curve of probabilities, and we will only know where we are going when we get there. Some probabilities are higher than others but there are too many unknown unknowns to allow anyone to play Nostradamus with any credibility...

I also have a problem with the word "should", since it implies ego-driven value judgements that immediately separate us from what is. Everything that someone thinks we "should" do has enough various implications that someone else can legitimately think "shouldn't". I'm having way too much fun watching what actually happens to worry about being a post-modern King Canute.

I'll go this far, though:

Higher probability: less driving, more walking; fewer Chinese bath toys; a war of some kind, somewhere.
Lower probability: nanotech-driven transhuman singularity; personal space travel; Soylent Green.
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CoffeeCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #19
22. I feel the uncertainty too...
And like you, I used to feel like I knew where we were headed (somewhat).

I'm wondering if this uncertainty is manufactured by the same fusion of corporations/politicians/media
that ushered in this economic disaster in the first place?

The media is frantically trying to push the, "Happy Days Are Here Again" meme. The banks reported
super duper "profitable" months, in Jan and Feb. Turns out that was probably a lot of hot air; certainly
not due to people taking our mortgages and business loans, as was suggested. The media also puffed up
the Feb housing numbers--which was another load of hot air.

You kinda get the feeling that there's a very deliberate attempt to fool us into thinking that things
are getting better. Maybe the reason is as benign as the politicians demanding that the media stop
reporting so much gloom and doom?

I think the uncertainty has been orchestrated because the messages coming out of the media are
bizarre and muddled--and completely contradict what they were saying just a few weeks ago. One week,
the world is crumbling--but the next week it's all sparkly unicorns and rainbows?

Of course, we feel uncertain.
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GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. There's no question TPTB are pushing an "agenda of hope"
Given their roles as “Guardian Institutions” they will do everything within their power to keep the peasants from revolting.

One of the reasons their activities are so noticeable right now is that their message is getting farther and farther out of alignment with observable reality. Their task is also becoming more urgent as the ideas promoted by those on the other end of the spectrum (people like Jim Kunstler, John Michael Greer, Carolyn Baker, Nouriel Roubini, James Lovelock, Jay Hansen et al) gain more and more traction. And the perspective of decline is gaining traction precisely because people see observable reality lining up behind it. At this point, about the only weapon TPTB have left is to sow uncertainty and doubt.

However, my inability to predict the course of events is less because of that interference than a simple epistemological barrier. The system is so complex, and so many things could happen, that we simply don’t have the knowledge we’d need to project out very far.
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tama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #23
31. Namedropping
Just came to me - the namedropping, labelling ideas by names who have spoken and or written about them, is relatively recent phenomenon, and actually quite strange point of view to reality (profet - ridden view of person-worship - yup, blame the ancient shamans and distrust all the current ones whether 'authentic' or 'wannabe'! ;)). UG 'himherself' is just another asshole - that's all he ever wanted us to learn from his experience... :)

So, my opinions and drewling on the net, or that of GliderGuiders, is just as significant or just as stupid as that of the names dropped above. By this I don't mean that every asshole and every opinion is 'equal', just that the NAMES are no more important in discussion and dialogue than any other participant who honestly seeks the roots of our current predicament and/or thinks about nicer ways to exist.







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GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #31
35. Yes, labelling is a risky pasttime
It's risky because it's a form of mapping. The map is not the territory, and mapping a whole person to their name carries the same dangers -- the loss of detail and meaning, the risk of misinterpretation, the separation from the full experience. On the other hand, so long as you recognize that it's just a map, a name can serve the same function in a conversation as a map during a physical journey.
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tama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. Map is the territory
This idea was presented to me by a not so famous physicist, whom I yet consider on par or above Einstein.

It's an idea to be met with caution, yet 'logically' that is exactly what dynamic holography entails...

Participating (science especially through evolution of math-mapping) in the evolution of universal mind... or sumfink...
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GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. While I agree with you philosophically
It's a hard idea to put into practice on an everyday basis.

"Where is the bathroom in this place?" "I'm not sure, let me cast the I Ching..."
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tama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. Hmm
All that fuzz about making one's heart and ones body an "empty space", could that have something to do with the praxis on everyday basis? Since I'm the center of the universe and hence, so is every other point in the space time...?

So as long All/Everything has a purpose - itself - why and/or how to interfere?

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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #31
36. Name dropping has its place
If you cite the thoughts of an expert on a subject, and give that expert's name, then those words rightfully receive some weight.

So, for example, saying (Nobel Prize winning economist) "Paul Krugmann says (this) about the recovery plan…" should carry significantly more weight than (Recognized political pundit) "George Will says (this) about it…"

Naturally, name dropping is also a way of trying to borrow someone else's reputation to give your own ideas a certain cachet they might not have on their own.
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tama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. Well
Givint it a thougt, I don't still agree. I don't have a Nobel Prize or any other Noble Title, but that does not, per se, make my (or your) impression and assesments any less worthwhile than Krugmans.

Au contraire, hierarchic titles as such should make us very conspicuous of the opinions of their carriers - what corruptions material and intellectual and spiritual took place inside the hierarchy so that the title was granted to the carrier? If Krugmans opinions hold merit, that is despite his titles, not because of them. IMHO they hold very little merit, though not nerely as short sighted and irresponsible as those of Obama Administration.

Of course I do the namedropping thing myself all the time (Jeebus said this, Buddha said that), but that is mostly tactical rhetorics, I must confess. But why should anyone feel inferior (or superior) to Buddha and Jeebus? That's not what those guys, at least during their somewhat more lucid moments, thought.
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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. Clearly, you are an American
Edited on Mon Mar-30-09 01:11 PM by OKIsItJustMe
In America, we believe that everyone is entitled to their own opinion, whether it is informed or not, and that all opinions are equally valid.

To be fair, in the strictest logical terms, your argument or mine is potentially just as valid as Krugman's (see "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_authority">Appeal to Authority.")

However, we live "in the real world." Krugman has dedicated a significant portion of his life to studying economics, I have not. Therefore, Krugman should be able to bring to bear much more evidence to support his argument than I could to support mine, and his conclusions should be based on a much larger body of prior arguments.

If you aren't going to go to the time and trouble of fully testing all of the various facets of our arguments, then, as a short-cut, it's reasonable to give greater credibility to Krugman than to me.


On the other hand, if Krugman were to make a statement about computers which I disagreed with, I would have little hesitancy in contradicting him.
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tama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #43
46. Interesting
Edited on Mon Mar-30-09 01:43 PM by tama
The question about how American I am can be answered only by how much I've been exposed to and conditioned by Anglo-Saxon / Washington consensus globalization - in fact I've never stepped on American soil nor is American my native language - my language and ancestral ways are much closer to Native Americans than their European conquerers, oppressers and mass-murderers.

Around the camp fire and in a Pow-wow the common wisdom includes every view-point, every voice available, experienece of old age is honoured as it should be but it is not by itself superior to fresh views of the younger ones. Decisions, at least good decisions, are not made by those individuals that shout the loudest or have most feathers in their head band, but by listening, sharing, comprehending.

As for Krugman and as for whole field of economics as a discipline and a world view, they are easy to refute from a wider perspective that takes more of this world into consideration than their narrow technicalities lacking both wider perspective and insight. That's what the voices around the camp-fires speak. UGH.

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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. (The statement about being American was intended as irony.)


Around the camp fire and in a Pow-wow the common wisdom includes every view-point, every voice, experienece of old age is honoured as it should be but it is not by itself superior to fresh views of the younger ones. Decisions, at least good decisions, are not made by those individuals that shout the loudest or have most feathers in their head band, but by listening, sharing, comprehending.



We're actually saying the same thing, although using different language.

Much of American Democracy was borrowed from the "Native" Americans.



Elders are honored, because of their experience (just as Krugman's argument should be given greater weight because of his experience.)

However, given sufficient evidence to contradict them…
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tama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. Thanks
There is no limit to my daftness... :)
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tama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. As for Krugman
Edited on Mon Mar-30-09 02:05 PM by tama
On the risque of off-topic, what wisdom I've gathered from various voices, his no doubt well-intentioned views are contradicted by two major points, the second one being more crucial:

1) Regulation (been there, done that, failed miserably) has inbuilt defusing structure, at least as long as the real power remains with those that hate regulation. Roosevelt's regulation, which was the outcome of the mass-struggles and experience that Roosevelt had merely the wisdom to go with, has been undone by "neoliberalism" since c. 1980, and there is no reason nor quarantee that new regulation that does not go radically enough to causes and power-structures would not be undone even faster than last-time - in the very unlikely case that new regulation would by the outcome of this situation.

2. The bottleneck and grinding stone of Real Capitalism as it has been around from c. 1820 to nowadays is cheap abundant energy, namely oil. Now age of cheap oil and energy is over, conventional oil peaked in 2005 and liquid fuels alltogether, as it seems, in 2008. The paradigm of unlimited growth dependant of unlimited availability of cheap energy (EROEI-wise) is over and human and humane ways to live must and will return to values of balance and moderation. The economic theory ruling political discussion today has little or no connection to real world, world of energy and metabolism. It is by design built to serve the only the self-interests of the small elite sitting at the top of the pyramid, constantly undermining even their own basis, the carrying capacity of Mother Earth.
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tama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #19
28. Negatives
Something we can say with near certainty - what it will NOT be like. For example, Capitalism as we know it (from c. 1820 to nowadays) is clearly and plainly finished.

I agree with avoiding "should", which of course doesn't stop me from imagining what could be nice: garden planet, plurality of anarcho-communist small self sufficient communes, technology as sustainable tool instead of technocracy (see: Modern times by Charles Chaplin), fair chance at living a full and good life for every human child, but nothing quaranteed.

Very modest wish list, IMHO. :)

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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 07:08 AM
Response to Original message
20. If we don't straighten up and fly right soon,
there will be no society and very possibly no humans either. Gaia will be just fine but we are on a very limited time frame within which we must make the changes that will allow our species to survive. Actually, though, we may have already hit the point of no return for humans, I'm not sure.
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comtec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 07:41 AM
Response to Original message
21. Gundam looks more and more plausible to me
Where you have a stark split between humans living in space - and continuing to evolve, aware of every plastic wrapper and what has to be recycled - and ground pounders.

I think we'll probably split in to two societies, earth and space based.

The spacers will have a much rougher time of it, as they will have to keep an eye on E V E R Y resource.
Ground pounders will have to be careful too, not to over-use what little resources are left.

Both will resent the other, and think they are the superior lot.

We can only hope the spacers go far out into space and find other home worlds because this one is in trouble.

Or... we'll have blown ourselves to bits. Possibly all society will collapse and there will be mass starvation and death - having not well managed the resources we have now.

either way, the reich will find a way to blame Al Gore and the Dems.
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tama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #21
32. Funny that
I've had a similar thought, except that physically there seems no chance for 'spacers' to inhabit space - not enough energy, resources and technology and theoretical understandin of the world as it is. What I've imagined is that one part of the society gives their souls to Internet or something like it (Matrix?) which is very old scifi-idea, making it kind of consciouss and alive...
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Barrett808 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 09:30 AM
Response to Original message
24. Worst case scenario: Dead oceans produce gigatons of hydrogen sulfide...
The gas poisons the coastlines of most continents. Human population is forced inland, where continental interiors are hotter and drier. Some areas are uninhabitable due to high temperatures.

North America in a hundred years will be sparsely inhabited by a few scavenger tribes that live on the wreckage of civilization.

Of course, that's the worst case scenario.
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 10:10 AM
Response to Original message
25. You won't know if I crib off of Anathem.
:evilgrin:
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #25
29. .
:banghead:
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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #25
44. But I will
I'll be watching…
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tama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 10:56 AM
Response to Original message
26. Simple answer to all questions:
Edited on Mon Mar-30-09 10:56 AM by tama
Fourth world society.
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #26
30. Damn. Zombies and cannibals ahead.
Roll up your windows, lock your doors, and whatever else you do, DON'T STOP FOR HITCHHIKERS!

Travel is so much easier in third world nations.

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tama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #30
33. Strange
I'm not denying that zombies (Haitian voodoo magic) and cannibals (in Sumatra and few other places) would not be also part of fourth world experience (to clarify: stateless nations, native peoples and neotribalisms etc), in all its variety and richness, but... strange attitude, very strange...
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #33
37. The real world hunter is an Ursula K. Le Guin "Always Coming Home" futurist.
The above post was brought to you by the snarky cynical pessimistic DU hunter.

:hi:

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tama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. Snarky cynics
Thirteen in a dozen. Though I'm not claiming any originality either... :)
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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 11:37 AM
Response to Original message
34. This is what Science Fiction is for
Edited on Mon Mar-30-09 11:45 AM by OKIsItJustMe
It's not about Han and Luke blasting the Death Star into smithereens (although that's fun.) It's about asking these big questions, and speculating on answers.

My mother, who raised her children on "Hard" Science Fiction stopped reading it. She said, "I've seen too much of it come true…"

I don't know what these societies will look like in 20 years, much less 100. I fear that the populations will be smaller as a result of the "Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse" (i.e. Pestilence, War, Famine and Death) and I dread what the long-term effects will be on the environment.

We are approaching, at, or just past so many "tipping points" I keep thinking of the climax of "It's a Mad Mad Mad Mad World," where essentially the entire cast of characters having been warned not to, jumps on to a rescue ladder, which then goes completely out of control.

Here we are now:

(Things just don't look promising.)
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 01:22 PM
Response to Original message
45. So here is my hypothetical of this centuries events.
Given the fact that a recent report stated that if we stopped polluting right now it would still take roughly 1000 years for the earth to recover.

Given that info and how co2 and heavy metal concentrations are going up, I see two things happening right off the bat.

1) places along the equator and whole swaths of the southern hemisphere will be completely void of life.

2)Mass migration of people from those zones to more habitable zones.

so here is my hypothetical of this centuries events.

2020: oil has peaked. earths temp has risen another 1/2 degree. regional wars break out: centering in SE Asia, the southern borders of the US, Western borders of Russia, the middle east (so what else is new), I good portion of northern and central Africa. Massive water shortages world wide as drought becomes more prevalent.

2030: massive collapse of the worlds economy, again. The regional wars of 2020 break out in to a world war comprising of several allied powers, in to several groups based on region. The world war, flares up and quiets from time to time based on resources captured and armies defeated. The few "rich" nations left experience various outbreaks of typically tropical diseases. Waterborne diseases are rampant in the 3rd world. People live with a lot less. The richer nations, hold on to a sense of "normalcy", mostly due to momentum via complex infrastructure. A massive push for solar, wind and tidal energy begins.

2040: The last of the worlds easy oil resource is gone, only heavy sour crude is left and there isn't much of that left either. The price of oil skyrockets. Trading on the same level as gold. Water is now a listed commodity. Nations outlaw water capturing (rain barrels, cisterns, however people still do it). Birth rate survival, rises dramatically. Weary from war, the worlds war simmers back into regional flare ups. The worlds population declines.

2050: Armies around the world, grind to a halt as oil becomes too expensive to keep them running. Soldiers begin to desert en mass. The worlds economy stagnates. Regionally produced food, becomes the norm. Various suburbs around the US are completely vacant and have been so for years, are converted back to farm land. The earths temp has risen a full additional degree.

2060: Life world wide is now much simpler. Entire cities now live off the grid. Either they are without power, use very little power or have a percentage being provided via alternative means. Infrastructure of cities begin to fail en masse. Because the wars wasted so many resources, the cities are now without the basics to fix the major utilities, roads and daily necessities.

2070: Much of the nations of Europe are now an agrarian based economy. Sail based ships are now the norm. Personal vehicles are a thing of the past, except for the privileged few. Trade wars begin. The worlds population continues it's mass migration to the cooler climates. The Sahara desert, Gobi desert and the American South west arid region have increased 3 fold.
Wars in Africa have ended: nothing left to fight over. China moves it's capital north into occupied Mongolia. Russia reverts its capital back to St. Petersburg. Southern California, Arizona, New Mexico and West Texas are virtually uninhabitable. After the border war with Mexico, Mexican nationals are allowed into the US. As are US citizen allowed into Canada. Massive collapse of the oceans ecosystem.

2080: The population of the Earth has stopped growing and has started decreasing. "Old World" diseases make a comeback. Plague, cholera and small pox return. Various smaller cities vanish from the earth when overcome by disease. The world has returned to a retro version of the middle ages.

2090: The few satellites that still work provide communications between major cities. oxcarts share roads with the riches electric vehicles. Recycling is now enforced by the law and those who don't are severely punished. Homemade windmills are a booming business. Solar powered steam generators are now being installed in the southwest and other arid regions of the US. Several nuclear power plants are put back online when small scale part production is reintroduced to society.

2100: The world has returned to an era not unlike the 1750's. However, barring some sort of dictatorial insanity, racial insanity, xenophobic insanity, the "1750's" of 2100, is based upon an agrarian regional democracy in the US. Areas of Europe have brought back monarchies, in others a parliamentary form of government. In Russia, Asia and Africa a type of parliamentary Feudalism exists. Life is still hard. Water is now more plentiful with a smaller world population. The worlds population finally stabilizes. Birth deaths have decreased slightly, they no longer out pace general population death. Corporations that existed at the beginning of the century have now been transformed. No longer have a "person" status under the law. Most items of need and want are produced locally. Good farming land, although still a valued commodity, is now a communal necessity and is treated as such. With the collapse of the health care system, which was overwhelmed by the world events, a new local type of health care system is set up in the US. A "regional" national health care. Some areas are better than others. The global temp will have increased roughly 3 degrees total from the beginning of the 21st century.

The world of the 22nd century will be a vastly complex system of simple needs.

I left out a lot of stuff, but I didn't want this post to become a novel. :)
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #45
51. Probably no war on the Mexican U.S. border.
I think it's more likely the U.S. would separate north to south, divided between Canada and Mexico. Those U.S. citizens uncomfortable with the increasing Mexican/Latin American cultural influences will gather whatever resources they can muster and simply abandon the South for the supposedly greener pastures of the North. Border enforcement will collapse faster than the Berlin Wall, and there will be great mobs of people crossing both ways.

Oregon, Idaho, and Montana will face a deluge of Republican Family Values fair weather patriots. Rick Warren will set up huge tent cities for these refugees from Oregon to Rhode Island, and the Canadians will disdainfully call these people "Saddlebackers"
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #51
57. The Mississippi-Great Lakes water system is so easy to transport NOT to be a united Country
When France first hit the New World, it quickly sized up what was needed militarily to control this Continent, if you control the Mississippi and Great lakes water System you control the Continent. The French then settled Quebec in 1608 and over a Century later founded New Orleans. The French called this area "New France" and it was an easy boat ride to almost anyplace within New France, the biggest problem was that they was no Direct connection between the Great Lakes and the Mississippi River system. While there was NO direct connection, portage between the two was relatively easy, often less then 20 miles on flat lands (This was do to the Glaciers from the last Ice Age, the Glaciers started to melt and do to the run off from the melt every stream, river or Creek on the American Side of the Lakes more then 20 miles from the Great Lakes flow south, the Great Lakes flow into each other and out the St Lawrence, but this only started AFTER the Glaciers had been melting for hundreds of not thousands of years, thus it is easy to get from the Great Lakes to the Mississippi River system, making both one transportation system that has existed for the last 10,000 years since the end of the last Ice Age).

The reason the French lost New France to the English was that England used the New World as a dumping ground for its dissenters, who were then kept in line and loyal to England do to fear that the French will tale over the East Coast without English Support. The French sent over only the most loyal French they could find, ran New France like a Military camp (Every Frenchmen in New France was expected to serve France even at the cost of development) and was run by one of the most Corrupt Colonial administration every created. Between these three problems, low population do to making sure only the most loyal could go (This was a problem for many other people in France wanted these same people to stay in France just in case of Revolution in France) and hopeless corruption (Something like $9 dollars of every $10 allocated to developer and defend New France was stolen before the money ever left France). On top of this the Native Americans, while trusting the French more then the English, preferred English Goods, for two reason, first the English Goods were better quality and second they were cheaper (Both tied in with the Corruption in the French Colonial Office). Worse the English were willing to import Germans in the Middle Colonies, when Englishmen did NOT want to go (William Penn started this trend by publishing pamphlets telling Germans they could have free lands in Pennsylvania if they settle they, many did, so many that by the Time of the 1754 French and Indian War Germans Clearly outnumbered English in Pennsylvania, and probably New Jersey and Maryland).

Thus by 1754 the English outnumbered the French in North America almost 10-1, and the numbers were increasing for the English Colonies. The American Indians has never recovered from the Small Pox Epidemics of the 1500s and 1600s and while a factor in the war between England and France for North America, relatively minor factor (Especially given the fact that the most Powerful Indian Tribe in what is today the US and Canada, the Iroquois were loyal to the English NOT the French). The English then did its killing move on the French, Attacking present day Pittsburgh to grab control of the Ohio River, taking Ticonderoga to free New England from any French Attack, and then Taking Quebec and Montreal. At that point France gave up North America (Only officially, French would stay the standard language of the Native Americas for inter-tribal use till English finally replaced it only in the 1830s, the main reason for this is the French still control the trade routes in what had been New France even while the English Took Canada and the Spanish was given New Orleans). Even this division of the Mississippi River System would only last 40 years, by 1803 the US had obtains its own independence from Britain (as many Frenchmen had predicted once France was out of Canada, for only the fear of France kept the American Colonies loyal to Britain) AND Napoleon had sold New Orleans to the US.

By the terms of the Treaty of Paris of 1783, the Great Lakes became the Border between Canada and the US, but British forces stayed south of the Great lakes till the 1790s (and supplies Native Americans supplies through the War of 1812, so to keep the trade of those Tribes coming through Quebec instead of the US proper). With the Settlement of the Mid-west after the war of 1812, and the completion of the Erie Canal connecting the Great Lakes with the Hudson River and New York City, even Canada started to become economically part of the US. By the 1850 this was clearly the case for Canada started to use the Dollar instead of the British pound do to growth of Trade between the US and Canada. This trade would increase after the American Civil War and continues to this day, showing that New France still lives even it is only on the Economic level.

My point is this area, the Mississippi River System, the parallel river/Canal system to Mobile Alabama, Including the Red River, the Missouri, the Plate, The Upper Mississippi, the Ohio river in addition to the Great Lakes are one integrated river highway, and as an integrated River Highway will tend to unite a people into one nation. It may be made up of more than one State (Canada and the US for example at the present time) but states are only legal institutions, the term Nation implies a sense of unity. The United States is a Modern State and a Nation. Canada is clearly an Independent State, but is it a separate nation? I can make the argument it is not and has not been since at least 1850, if not before. Nations are NOT only legally independent of each other (as are Canada and the US) but economically and socially independent of each other (Which Canada and the US are NOT).

I bring this up for if the US breaks up, the concept of Nation will survive any break up of the Independent State now known as the US (I can NOT say the same thing of Canada, but then I have already said Canada is part of the Nation of the US, but not the legal State of the US). Such breakup of nations tend to see the fringes set themselves up as independent States, but once the breakup is over, the tendency to unity of the nation reemerges. You can see this to a limited extend in Russia. Belarus and the Ukraine broke off from Russia at the time of the Collapse of the Soviet Union. Both nations are still trying to determine they relationship with Russia. Both Belarus and the Ukraine are Independent States, but being on the Eurasian Steeps are in many ways economically and socially tied in with Moscow. I do not want to get into European Politics to much, but the Rivers in Eurasia tend to unite people, like they do in North America, in Eurasia the Rivers tend to flow to the sea independent of each other (unlike the Mississippi river and Great Lakes system which ends up flowing into one river at each end). Even with the fact the rivers are less uniting in Eurasia then in North America, the trend is still they to see. In North America with only two exits from what was New France, unity will return to that area sooner or later.

You can see it in the History of China, the key to China is its two main rivers, those unite China into one Country. When China breaks up (and it has in the past) someone sooner or later uses those two rivers to unite the Country again. Then China expands beyond those rivers to roughly were it has always stopped. Sometimes to the Great Wall, sometimes further north, China tries to hold on to Hanoi every so often in its History, but tends to retreat for it is to far from the main rivers to really matter to the people and leaders of China.

I go into the above before I discuss any breakup on the US. While what had been New France may break up, it will never stay divided. Sooner or later it will be united, either from a force from within what had been New France, or by a force from without. The Last two times New France broke up, the French using Quebec as a base united it, then the British using the American East Coast and Nova Scotia took it over, then the US, using its population took over most of New France after the Revolution (and took over Canada economically by the 1850s). While this is the historical record, we have to understand how low was the population of the Native Americans in New France throughout the above periods. No one sees such low population for New France anytime in the Future, so what unites New France could as while come from within New France as from without.

Now let me describe the other geographical areas of North America. Second in Size to the New France is the Mexican Valley. It is huge, most of Central Mexico and can support a huge population. It is Second to New France in both regards. Occasionally New France and the Mexican Valley have come into Conflict, but as a general rule both are to far from each other to be a threat to each other. The Conflicts is when one moves into other regions that threaten the other. The classic Example of this was the Historical problems of Spain and France when Spain controlled Mexico and sent troops to what is now east Texas, France viewed that as a direct threat to New Orleans and was a point of Conflict even while both nations were allied against the British in the 1700s. This problem arouse again after the War of 1812 as Mexico gained its Independence from Spain and started to assert its right to what is now Texas. By that time New Orleans had become American Property and any hostile forces in what is now Texas is a threat to New Orleans. Thus Texas had to become part of the US and the US did so by 1848. While most Texas rivers do NOT flow into the Mississippi River, the Gulf coast acts like an extension of that River, thus East Texas had economically always been part of New France even when it was technically under Spanish Rule (Through Spain and later Mexico Forbade such trade).

While East Texas and the Red River Valley is part of New France, the Rio Grand Valley is it own nation. What make the Rio Grand its own nation? Because the most important thing in the Rio Grand Valley is the Waters of that River. Since 1848 that River has been the Border between the Legal States of Mexico and the US, but has always been its own nation. What happens in its drainage area is more important to the people of the Rio Grand Valley then anything that happens in Washington or Mexico City. The Colorado River can be viewed as the same, what happens on the river is more important then anything else, how much snow falls in Colorado and drains into the Colorado River is more important to the Mexican citizens at the point the River flows into the Bay of Cortes then what happens elsewhere in Mexico. This is typical of Desert nations, like Egypt and why the Colorado and Rio Grand River Systems are two nations, caught between the two big powers of North America, New France and the Mexican Valley. Prior to 1836 both legally were in the State of Mexico, since 1848, both have been divided between the States of Mexico and the US. Such borders areas have always existed and shift from one nation to another, while often maintaining their won nationhood to a degree (Netherlands, Belgium Luxembourg, Switzerland and the German Speaking, but French Provinces of Alsace-Lorraine are examples of this, caught between the Nations of France and Germany, often playing one against the other, more worried about the Rhine River then what is going on elsewhere in Germany or France).

The next nation, and often tied in with the Colorado River, is San Diego. It is the best port south of San Francisco. Economically it is part of Los Angeles (or Los Angles is part of it) but both are low water areas dependent on the Colorado River for part of their Water, the rest from the Sierra Nevada Mountains. This separates them from the Central Valley of California and San Francisco, which is much wetter and colder and is itself a separate "Nation" but like Los Angles/San Diego, the Colorado River System and the Rio Grand River System so tied in with New France they are part of present day nation of the US and Canada. Except for the trade, over the mountains, these areas would all be marginal, to far from New France to be a threat to New France but if independent of New France would be a patch on their present size (The Colorado and Rio Grand river is an exception to this rule). If the US ever breaks up, California will break into two country, one around San Diego and other around San Francisco. Independent of each other and both hoping New France gets united so they can re-attach and grow as New Frances connection with Asia. San Francisco I do not ever see becoming part of Mexico, it was marginal Mexican and Spanish in the 1700s (Sutter of Sutter Mills Frame, purchased his mill from the Russians NOT the Mexicans when he settled in California). On the other hand the Rio Grand, Colorado River and San Diego/Los Angles nations could very while become part of Mexico, more do to the fact all three of these "Nations" extend into present day Mexico as while and the US today.

This brings me to Puget Sound and the Columbia/Snake River Valley. The Exact southern border of this "Nation" is about the present Oregon/California Border, but it is arbitrary more then real. The issue where do the local look to for trade? Seattle and Puget Sound or San Francisco and San Fransisco Bay? This nation includes British Columbia and probably Alaska's panhandle. Puget Sound and the Columbia and Snake Rivers are the key to this Nation. That the Columbia River does NOT flow into the Puget Sound has been the area biggest handicap, forcing people to haul items by land to Seattle where elsewhere in North America the major Port and Harbor are at the end of the local Major River.

Alaska, Yukon and the Canada's Northwest Territories can be called "Tribal lands" for all practical purposes. Agricultural in non extended in these areas so not only is the urban population low so is the Rural Population. The Yukon and MacKenzie Rivers (along with Hudson Bay) are the main transportation system (planes are used extensively but hard to ship heavy items by plane). Best ruled at a local and Area level. Each tribal area having control over its "homeland" while the overall Area Government make sure national laws are followed. This area will fall to whoever controls the areas south of it. Siberia is very similar. Could a force retreat into this area? yes, but will quickly wear out its welcome by consuming whatever food is available. In any breakup will try to stay loyal to whoever is to the south, but will switch sides as whoever controls the area to its south. Thus will NOT stay independent for any length of time, it will want to join in whoever rules to the south. This is true of Greenland as while, with the exception if Denmark actually trues to hold onto Greenland if anyone who controls New France Decided they wanted Greenland.

Now New France ends sometime when it hits the Rocky Mountains. What I said about Alaska, Yukon and the Canada's Northwest Territories also goes for the Utah and the Great basin. The Great Basin is NOT in any other are, but like the polar regions low population prevents it from being any thing more then a "Tribal area". What happens they will have no affect on the rest of the Continent UNLESS the rest of the Continent wants it be important. Thus the Great basin falls into the same category as the polar regions, sooner or later it will comes to terms with whoever controls "New France" on whatever terms "New France" grants it.

This brings us to the East Coast. Quebec is part of New France so NOT part of the East Coast. Newfoundland has a little more population then Greenland, but like Greenland will tend to join whoever controls the area to its south (again do to the fact it is so far north with minimal agricultural, through more agricultural then areas further North). New Brunswick, Prince Edwards Island and Nova Scotia is in similar situation as New Found land, but being closer to New England, more farming is done and closer to coming under the control of any independent nation of New England. New York City could be its own Nation, but would be more powerful if it unites with Boston and Philadelphia. The problem with that is all three are natural ports, with New York City and Philadelphia drawing from the Hudson River and Delaware River for trade. Philadelphia also will be competing with Baltimore for trade of the Susquehanna River, Which flows into Chesapeake Bay, while in trade to Philadelphia from that river has to go overland to Philadelphia. Thus the Three Northern Large Cities will tend to do what they did in Colonial Days, divide up the east coast and try to get as much as the trade from New France that they can over the Mountains. Thus New jersey will be split, Southern New Jersey, Delaware and Eastern Pa becoming part of Philadelphia. Northern New Jersey, New York State SOUTH of Albany, Connecticut and Long Island to New York City, Nova Scotia, Brunswick, Price Edwards Islands rejoining New England and Boston. Up State New York playing the old game of the Iroquois, seeing which of its four options pays it the best, Boston, New York City, Philadelphia or Quebec (and New France).

Baltimore and the rest of the Chesapeake Bay will tend to unite, Norfolk to get supplies from Pennsylvania, Virginia and Maryland via Baltimore, Baltimore having access to the Atlantic for its trade from Central Pennsylvania, Maryland and Virginia.

South Carolina is one of the Few states in the US that geographically makes sense, it is centered around the best port south of the Chesapeake Bay, Charleston. North Carolina will tend to join the Chesapeake Bay nation (as it did doing Colonial times) while Georgia will join with Charleston as the best port in that part of the South (Savanna has always been #2 to Charleston). Florida will tend to go Independent, more do to the fact it is to far away from Mobile to be part of New France and to far From Charleston to be part of Greater South Carolina.

I went through the above to give people an idea of what are the "Nations" of North America. The problem is when you have a huge center, like what had been called New France, it tends to absorb the minor nations around it. Thus as soon as New France becomes Economically united again, all of the above nations will again fall under its spell and become part of what ever the new Country decides to call itself. The only exceptions will be the Mexican Valley, which is to far away, and maybe the Rio Grade River, Colorado River and San Diego Nations. An outside chance for San Francisco and the Great Basin. Every other area of North America is either to close to "New France' NOT to be absorbed by "New France" or to low in population and to far from other population centers not to be absorb by "New France". Thus long term the US will reform upon any break up.

Unlike Russia, where the borders between the various sub-states actually made geographic sense, most US states borders were draw by some bureaucrat who knew little or nothing about what he was doing except giving title to land to someone. Since the US Government had complete control over any waterways, rivers and lakes were used as borders, even through Rivers and lakes unite people not separate them. Many state borders are the result of some compromise over a border dispute, that just split the difference between the two claims, do to the fact people living on both sides of the border were citizens of the same legal state, the US. Thus in any breakup states will break up at the same time as the Federal Government. California will divide in half, as will Pennsylvania and to a limited degree New York State. Some areas will merge, Western Pa, West Virginia will join in any version of "New France" while before Eastern Pennsylvania and Virginia will ever think of doing so. Colorado may divide three ways, into the Rio Grand, Colorado and plate river system (The Plate being part of the "New France"). Texas will split two ways, Red River and East Texas to New Orleans and "New France" while the Rio Grand Valley may merge with the Mexican side of that River into a separate nation, taking New Mexico with it. Arizona, Nevada may join with the Mexican States on both sides of the Gulf of Cortes and may take San Diego with them (or San Diego may go on its own with Baja California as while as Southern California). I do not know, all I am pointing out is the Geographical tendency on North America, if a complete breakup occurred, it will tend to follow the above do more to geography then any other single factor. Social factors will also come into play, but geography is the trump card is such split up and the tend in the Great lakes and Mississippi River System is to unite not to break up.

I should also comment, do to the same tendency mentioned above, any movement to dissolve will face massive opposition, more do to people losing more then they are gaining by the dissolution. Thus I doubt the US will ever completely dissolve, but the above is how it would break up if it ever did.
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Barrett808 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #45
56. I'd place "Massive collapse of the oceans ecosystem" around 2030
At least, that's what Jeremy Jackson is predicting:

Brave New Ocean (http://progressive.atl.playstream.com/nakfi/progressive/Sackler/sackler_12_07_07/jeremy_jackson/jeremy_jackson.html)

The last marine mammals should be dead by then.

"The future is bright for dinoflagellates."
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ramapo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 02:13 PM
Response to Original message
50. Maybe not all that different
My hope it looks much different and for the better. My fantasy world includes ubiquitous mass transit which includes high speed rail serving as the transportation infrastructure for both passenger and freight traffic.

I'd like to see light rail parallel and then replace most of our metropolitan highway infrastructure with reliable and frequent bus service where light rail is not feasible or justified.

There should be a desprawling of America led by the rejuvenation of America's cities.

Upon reflection, much of what I've just outlined actually existed fifty years ago before the rail system was dismantled and the cities abandoned.

Of course there should be a rebuilding of our energy infrastructure. Mini-wind and solar should be everywhere. Large installations should be constructed offshore, on the plains, and in the deserts.

Our landscape should be allowed to revert back to a more natural state although what is natural is probably one of the more radical changes of the past fifty years not that invasive species have made new homes here and there.

I would hope that society gets back to a more neighborhood mode of living although I think that is a huge challenge.

The change from 1909 to 2009 is incredibly dramatic. I think most of that change was in place in the first 50 years. The last 50 years have seen those forces put in motion during the initial 50 strengthen and expand (such as suburbanization). Except for scope, I don't think there is all that much dramatically different today versus 1959. This does not consider the immense changes brought about by technology; computers and the internet more specifically. But I think that is more about how we live and work as individuals rather than as a society, not that the two aren't interrelated.
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 03:50 PM
Response to Original message
52. For the fortunate- permaculture






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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 04:31 PM
Response to Original message
53. What do you think it will look like in twenty years?
The reason I'm asking, is because it might take that long for the California high-speed rail to get up to speed. The estimate I heard last year was that SF-LA would be finished in 2018, with Sacramento and San Diego connected about 3 to 5 years later. Projects like this often take longer than expected, so realistically it might be twenty years before the four cities are connected. What will jet fuel and gasoline prices be? Will it still be cheaper to drive? Will we have reached "peak oil" yet?

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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 04:43 PM
Response to Original message
54. Two trends will dominate, Energy and electronics.
Oil is expected to peak by 2010 (If it did not peak in 2005). After that you will have a slow decline in oil pumped. If we use 2005 as peak year we be about at the same level of oil usage world wide by 2100 as we were using in 1900. To a degree alternative energy sources will replace oil, but none of them promise to be as easy or as cheap. Furthermore we are looking at world wide energy usage NOT just the oil users in 1900, thus Americans will have access to less oil in 2100 then we did in 1900.

Lithium Battery operated vehicles will replace gasoline to a degree, but no electric battery is as good a storage unit as gasoline thus less movement by car then today. I expect railroads to pick up a bit of the strain, do to the fact the steel wheel on steel rail brings with it the least roll Resistance and with it the most efficient, from an energy point of view, means of transport. This brings with it a tendency to more concentration of population around train stations so I foresee Suburbia slowly dieing out (I also foresee most of todays Mall surviving, first converting their parking lots for housing for their workers and then others as long as the Malls are connected to each other and the old downtowns by some sort of light rail, as you get away from the malls, suburbia will revert back to farmland).

Nuclear power, solar, power, wind power and river power will all be part of the energy mix, but all of them generate electricity and the best way to use such power is by direct power link (i.e. direct power via an electrical line). Thus railroads will be electrified probably by 2030, at first do to the high price of diesel, then do to its the most efficient use of what ever electrical power we can produce.

Now, barges on rivers and ships at sea will prefer to use bio-diesel. The huge engines such ships require bring with them efficient use. Lithium Batteries providing power to electric engines are NOT as efficient as Diesel in Diesel Engine, ans this will become clear when it comes to large ships. On Ocean going Ships I foresee increase use of sail, mostly electrically controlled for maximum use of any wind available. I do NOT see such sails on River craft mostly do to the fact the river rarely goes in the direction of the wind (On the ocean you can make adjustments in navigation to use the wind as much as possible). People will get around, but not in Cars, to inefficient from an energy point of view. Bicycles will be use in urban areas (suburbs as they are known today will disappear) and in rural areas horses will make a comeback, apically as railroads return to most counties as rail-heads, thus permitting trips from most farms to rail-heads (which may be the remains of today's malls) and back to the farm in under a day. This was the norm prior to 1900 and will be the norm in rural American after oil gets so scarce that oil become unaffordable to most people.

Battery operated cars will be common, but most people will NOT own one. Ambulances and other emergency vehicles will have first option for such batteries, but sooner or later the expense of lithium, the fact that electrical energy units lose power in Cold Weather more then in Warm Weather, the lower efficiency of any Battery compared to direct power draw (i.e. Overhead wires for Trains and Light Rail Vehicles will more efficiently use electrical power then any battery, fuel cell or other electrical storage device) and the extra weight of the batteries themselves will lose out to electrical trains and Light Rail Vehicles, both for passengers and fright.

Electrical devices will become more and more efficient and powerful, in fact I believe it will be more efficient to use whatever energy we can produce to propel rockets (including bio-diesel converted to other fuel) to fire and maintain Satellites for communication purposes rather then keep printing books i.e. it would be cheaper in energy usage to keep the satellite up and maintain the internet then to try to move printed books around. Google earth will expand, we will be able to see distant location, even while our ability to get to those locations disappear with the lost of oil.

Yes, while the population of Suburbia disappear, Rural America will see an expansion. The main reason for this expansion is the cost of food will go up, as Rural America converts back to using horses, mules and Oxen as beast of burden do to the lack of any good way to get electrical power to rural areas, at least enough to charge electrical tractors. Such use of Animals require increase man power thus the increase in Rural Population. What electrical power is available, the trains will pay a premium for. What the Trains do NOT buy, people who convert crops to Bio-diesel will. A third group will be the military, ambulances and other emergency services. Increase electrical efficiency will help but the need for electrical power to replace oil will be to great for the farmers to compete for electrical power for their tractors. Thus I foresee farmers going back to animals. The main reason to go to tractors since WWII has been the increase ability to plow and do other farm work with the larger and larger tractors. If you have no fuel (or people are willing to outbid you for the fuel) such tractors are NOT viable. As to converting them to electrical power, electrical motors provide more power per wheel but at a huge price in electrical storage needs. If Direct power can be used, it will be, but once away from direct power source the price will be to high.

Now, I might be wrong as to the availability of electricity to replace oil, but I dod NOT believe so and thus why I take the view I do. To many people want access to to few electrical supply for electricity to replace oil in the next 50 years (100 years I am less sure of, by then Fusion may be one line and we may even have enough generators of electric via present flow of water in the rivers i.e. no dams, just very efficient turbines). The two biggest problem in the next 100 years will be that oil, which supplies 50% of our energy today, will disappear for all practical purposes. The remaining Fossil fuels are NOT in that much better shape. Nuclear energy can provide a good bit of the power needed, but being a source for electrical power only the conversion from electrical power to actual power needed, will NOT be as efficient as gasoline to power is today. That is Nuclear/Solar/Solar/Hydro powers biggest problem. You can avoid that problem by using the electrical power to propel trains, and replace today's Gasoline/Car system with a Train/electrical system but it means restarting our society which many people will oppose.

Increase computer efficiency is the other big factor, maybe even permitting people to do things people go by car to do today (i.e. NOT actually seeing foreign countries but visiting them by Computer). Many people will no longer have to get books or magazine delivery to them, the net will be the source of the information (the Net has already done this is a good degree). If this is what happens, satellite will be needed and people will pay to make sure those satellites are up they so they can communicate with each other.

Last comment, life 100 years from now will be as different as life today is different from life in 1900. Only in the 1920 census did more people in the US lived in Urban areas as opposed to Rural areas, and that may become the norm again by 2100. Roads 100 years from now will NOT be as good as the roads today, but people will be able to travel on them by bicycle and wagons (and maybe even light cars). Such roads will be used to get to the nearest railhead or maybe a seaport and from they to anywhere else you want to go. people will prefer to stay with people they know so I see the US becoming much more like Europe, with a much reduced movement of workers from one part of the country to another, but with that will bring with it a greater sense of Community then we have today.

Side Note: In 1896, 1900 and 1908 saw the first major Party Candidate run for office who was not only a lawyer himself, so was his wife. One of his Daughters would run and hold a Congressional seat for almost a decade. In 1992 the US finally elected the male member of such a couple to be President (Through the Candidate in 1896, 1900 and 1908 was NEVER accused of having sex with anyone else, other then his wife, while he was married, unlike Bill Clinton). I bring this up for 1900 was a very progressive time (Through Segregation was starting in ernest about that same time) and that can be true of 2100 if the times calls for it, as the times of today calls for it.
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Terry in Austin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-30-09 05:41 PM
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55. It will probably look like a very good idea
OK, so I cribbed off of Ghandi...

:7
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