Free Watt Heating System

[REACTIVATED IN CT]

http://world.honda.com/news/2007/c070403HomeHeatingPowerSystem/

Their heating system also generates electricity for the homeowner using the same natural gas. They are located in MA and sell systems there.
They don't have dealers in CT yet, but I'm guessing they will soon since they installed a system in New Haven for the Neighborhood Housing Services. I happened to see an article about that in the New Haven Register today.

Has anyone heard anything about this system ?

[Old Codger]

1. Interesting

Be interested in knowing the cost of one of these units...gotta do some research....

A little more info on this system, still no actual cost


link:http://www.loe.org/shows/segments.htm?programID=07-P13-00037&segmentID=2

[REACTIVATED IN CT]

8. Thanks. I do listen to LOE but missed that episode ! n/t

[wtmusic]

2. It would be effective at reducing GHG emissions

in areas which use mostly coal but not so much in areas where renewable programs are an option (we get 60% of our power from renewables).

Though you may save $500-$1000/year on your electric bill, what does your gas bill look like? Though line losses would be less, how can the efficiency of microsystems like this compete with a power plant?

:shrug:

[NNadir]

3. Efficiency is meaningless in these systems, since all the energy is recovered.

It is, basically, a co-generation system, in which waste heat is recovered to heat the home or water.

From an environmental standpoint - not counting the external cost of manufacturing the thing, trucking the thing, installing the thing - it is rather difficult to imagine that it would be worse than the grid in winter. In summer it's a very different question if the home is cooled using air conditioning, even if some heat is recovered for hot water. Leaking heat from the system may mean that it ends up consuming more energy than it saves in winter.

In general, I am suspicious and out-right hostile to distributed energy systems because the inevitable redundancy of infrastructure and the inherent point source nature of the pollutants are difficult. It is clearly more efficient to ride a train, plane or ship as opposed to an automobile, just by their nature.

However I suspect that this system may represent a specific case where my general views could stand re-examination.

Of course the elephant on the table is the question of whether or not there will be natural gas to run this baby for the time required to recover the external cost of manufacturing it.

This is, of course, not a general solution for the average citizen. It's for relatively wealthy people. If they buy one of these things instead of say, a Lincoln Navigator, the outcome is positive for all the people who have to live with the crap they dump in their consumerist orgies.

[madokie]

4. if you follow the links you will find they are not intended for use during the summer months

We don't have enough heating days during the winter for it to be feasible here and if we did I would be checking into the prices.

Oh and we have plenty of natural gas to last a long long time if what I read is correct that is.

[NNadir]

11. Really? You have 'plenty of natural gas?' How but room to dump the dangerous natural gas waste?

You couldn't care less, I guess, just as I suspected.

You scratch the surface of an anti-nuke - from Lovins to Schroeder - you find a dangerous fossil fuel apologist.

Care to hazard a guess about magnitude of the dangerous fossil fuel waste dumped last year into the atmosphere as a result of yuppie indifference to it?

No?

Why am I not surprised?

[wtmusic]

5. "suspicious and out-right hostile to distributed energy systems

because the inevitable redundancy of infrastructure"

That's kind of what I meant re: efficiency (you said it better)

An additional drawback of net metering is that the utilities become hostage to the consumer (if the utility finds cleaner ways to generate power in the future they will still be legally obligated to buy electricity from thousands of CO2-spewing units).

[NNadir]

12. I don't actually believe there is going to be the natural gas to run these things.

The few yuppies who own them may be able to afford the things, but they will be net money losers, I bet.

There will, however, be heat in Cernovoda, where district heating is practiced.

[REACTIVATED IN CT]

9. I paid about $1500

for the last 12 months for heat (old inefficient boiler) and hot water (new water heater)

Electricity runs about $70 a month on average. That's total - I would have to look at the itemized charges on the bills, I guess, to see how much I am paying for the product vs. the delivery.

[LiberalEsto]

6. Cost: $13,000 installed

"The price for Freewatt micro-CHP with warm-air heater is approximatley $13,000 installed, depending upon the complexity of the installation."
Link:
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2007/04/honda_and_clima.php



"The payback period on the initial investment is three to seven years, depending on the cost of electricity, say officials at Climate Energy.
Link:
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/techinnovations/2006-11-14-micro-chp_x.htm

I think that a 3 to 7 year payback is wildly optimistic.

[REACTIVATED IN CT]

7. Thanks, I didn't have time to do much googling yesterday.

That price is about twice the amount I was quoted for installing a new high efficiency gas boiler in my house. I need to do that fairly soon, so may not be able to get one of these if they are not marketing in CT yet.

CT is offering some rebates for high eff. furnaces and there is the Federal tax credit, too so that would lower the intial price a bit. Will have to look more closely at this after 11/4 when I have more time.

[FREEWILL56]

13. You have to pay $6,500 for a new boiler?

That's almost twice what I paid to have a new Crown installed at my place 2 years ago.

[REACTIVATED IN CT]

10. From the USAToday link

<snip> In Japan, more than 30,000 homeowners have installed micro-CHP systems driven by quiet, efficient internal-combustion engines, each housed in a sleek metal box made by Honda. Japan is ahead because gas utilities have been subsidizing and promoting the systems. In Britain, where the systems look like dishwashers and sit under kitchen counters, 80,000 systems made by a New Zealand company are on order.

At least five companies are building micro-CHP systems worldwide. Two are trying to enter the US market: Marathon Engine Systems of East Troy, Wis., plans to bring a 4-kilowatt hot-water system it sells in Europe to the U.S. early in 2007. Climate Energy of Medfield, Mass., has developed a forced-hot-air system that marries a high-efficiency furnace to a superquiet Honda generator. That system has been deployed as a pilot to several U.S. homes, including Malin's. <snip>


Looks like there are other manufacturers - even one in the USA

Lots to look into after Election Day !

[trof]

14. Many thanks for this article. My daughter is getting one.

At least a rep is coming out on Friday to give her an estimate. Unless there's a hang up, she's sold.