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ABC News: Chevy Volt Still on Tap for 2010—Looking Ahead to GM's Electric Car

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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-09-08 11:55 PM
Original message
ABC News: Chevy Volt Still on Tap for 2010—Looking Ahead to GM's Electric Car
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=5545196

Chevy Volt Still on Tap for 2010

Looking Ahead to GM's Electric Car

By BILL WEIR and DREW MILLHON

Aug. 9, 2008 —

"As General Motors goes, so goes the country." If that old saying is still true, America is in serious trouble.

After 76 years at No. 1, GM now trails Toyota in sales, they bleed billions in losses and some focus groups say they like their cars better when the logo is removed.

But right now, in a couple of rooms outside Detroit, GM's designers and engineers are desperately trying to pull off the automotive equivalent of the moon shot. It's an idea that could either change the world or spell doom for a once mighty American brand.

It is called the Chevy Volt -- and, if it works, it will mean the average commuter could go months between fill-ups, making the Prius look like a gas-guzzler.


(Follow the link for video.)
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TlalocW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 12:11 AM
Response to Original message
1. It's interesting to see Chevy try to get themselves out of the hole they dug for themselves
It's a well-deserved hole. They kept trying to push cars and SUVs that they wanted America to buy and cried in their 3-martini lunches when we refused and sought out companies that gave us what we wanted. They deserved to lose the top spot.

TlalocW
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 01:32 AM
Response to Original message
2. All PR, no news.
From the comments:

"As usual, GM lies. The VOLT battery is 400 lbs. bu t only has 8 kWh available and can only go 32 miles in battery-only mode. It's true that the EV1 had 1100 lbs. of lead PSB EV-EC1260 batteries, but they contained 18 kWh, more than twice what the VOLT is supposed to have.Moreover, the Toyota RAV4-EV has 1000 lbs. of NiMH PEVE EV-95 batteries that give it 28 kWh, more than 3 times the VOLT.If the VOLT had 400 lbs. of NiMH, it would have 12 kWh, enough to go 60 miles.So why isn't GM using NiMH, the superior choice, or lead, the proven choice? The answer is simple. The VOLT is a public-relations device, GM has already testified to the NHTSB that the VOLT will only be available in very limited quantities, if at all, through 2014, and should NOT be counted in GM's desperate attempts to meet MPG ("cafe") standards.Meaning that GM has no intention of following through; no intention of making a lot of VOLT; and intends to sabotage the VOLT as it sabotaged the EV1.GM is, from top to bottom and front to back, a LIAR. They drove EV drivers to Toyota, which honroable SOLD the Toyota RAV4-EV to us; GM didn't treat us honorably.Toyota picked up GM's business for a reason: Toyota delivered quality, and GM delivered B.S. and hot air."

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tinrobot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 02:24 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Nice rant... but... the numbers are wrong.
Edited on Sun Aug-10-08 02:27 AM by tinrobot
For one thing, the Volt hasn't even been shown in public yet, so nobody knows the exact numbers. Plus, in order to calculate the range of an electric car based upon battery capacity, you need to know a lot of things about the car, including it's weight, average speed, and coefficient of drag.

Even then, the numbers used are off from what GM has stated. For one, the battery pack in the Volt is supposed to be 16kWh, not 8kWh. In addition, the lithium batteries are lighter then lead or NiMH, making the comparison to those other cars even more of a stretch.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. No one knows the exact numbers, but you know they're wrong.
We do know the original design was scrapped for a crappy drag coefficient, so maybe GM will pull a rabbit out of a hat and come out with a car that has a better drag coefficient than the EV1 - the best of any production car in history.

The battery pack is neither 8 kWh nor 16 kWh, but 12.

"The Volt's battery will hold 12 kWh of charge; it will weigh 170 kilograms and be 1.8 meters long."

http://www.ecoworld.com/home/articles2.cfm?tid=455

So there is a lot of BS flying around and until there's a car that's all it is...BS.

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tinrobot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Consumer reports has it at 16kWh
This is where I got my info:

http://blogs.consumerreports.org/cars/2008/03/chevrolet-volt.html

In other words, nobody knows the final specs and my point is valid - how can someone criticize a car that hasn't even been released or even been seen in it's final form?
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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 08:18 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. … why isn't GM using NiMH, the superior choice, or lead, the proven choice? …
Edited on Sun Aug-10-08 08:19 AM by OKIsItJustMe
Why are virtually all of the EV's being announced using lithium-ion rather than NiMH?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel_metal_hydride

Nickel-metal hydride battery

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Redirected from Nickel metal hydride)

A nickel-metal hydride battery, abbreviated NiMH, is a type of rechargeable battery similar to a nickel-cadmium (NiCd) battery but using a hydrogen-absorbing alloy for the negative electrode instead of cadmium. As in NiCd batteries, the positive electrode is nickel oxyhydroxide (NiOOH). A NiMH battery can have two to three times the capacity of an equivalent size NiCd. However, compared to the lithium-ion battery, the volumetric energy density is lower and self-discharge is higher.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery

Lithium-ion battery

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Lithium-ion batteries (sometimes abbreviated Li-ion batteries) are a type of rechargeable battery in which a lithium ion moves between the anode and cathode. The lithium ion moves from the anode to the cathode during discharge and from the cathode to the anode when charging.

Lithium ion batteries are commonly used in consumer electronics. They are currently one of the most popular types of battery for portable electronics, with one of the best energy-to-weight ratios, no memory effect, and a slow loss of charge when not in use. In addition to uses for consumer electronics, lithium-ion batteries are growing in popularity for defense, automotive, and aerospace applications due to their high energy density. However certain kinds of mistreatment may cause Li-ion batteries to explode.



OK, so, can we say that the idea that GM is using Lithium-ion, rather than the "superior" NiMH for some nefarious reason is preposterous on the face of it? (After all, if it was only a PR ploy, they could simply use NiMH.)


Why is GM shipping in limited quantities at first? Oh, I don't know, maybe for the same reason Nissan is.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=115&topic_id=166761&mesg_id=166761


Powered by advanced lithium-ion batteries, the EV prototype is part of Nissan’s substantial research and development program on zero emission vehicles. This latest generation vehicle features a front-wheel drive layout and uses a newly developed 80kW motor and inverter. The advanced laminated compact lithium-ion batteries are installed under the floor, without sacrificing either cabin or cargo space.

The production vehicle to be introduced in 2010 will have a unique bodystyle and is not based on any existing Nissan model.



Or, perhaps Nissan's part of the vast GM conspiracy!
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. I have to agree with you
*ouch* that hurts...:D

NiMH is "superior" to Li-Ion? :silly:

What I don't understand is why GM doesn't reintroduce the EV-1. With a superior Li-Ion battery it could go 250 miles and "make the Volt look like a gas-guzzler". Any ideas? :shrug:
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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Why not reintroduce the EV-1?
Edited on Sun Aug-10-08 03:40 PM by OKIsItJustMe
While some people really liked the EV-1; a number did not.

The EV-1 was a two-seater. The Volt is a four-seater.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1#EV1_drivetrain_prototypes


The new platform was a four-passenger variant of the EV1, lengthened by 19". This design was based on an internal (GM) program for a more "marketable" EV begun during the proof of concept phase of the EV1's development. During the original EV1 R&D period, focus groups indicated one of the major market limiting factors of the original EV1 was its two seater configuration. GM investigated the possibility of making the EV1 a four seater, but ultimately determined that the increased length and weight of the four seater would reduce vehicle's already limited range to 40-50 miles - placing the first ground up electric car's performance squarely in the pack of aftermarket gas vehicle conversions. Understandably, the company elected to produce the lighter two seater design.



The math still holds of course. They could go with a larger battery pack. But then, they'd wind up with a car which is as expensive as the other longer-range EV's which have been announced.

As it is, many people balk at prices which have been mentioned for the Volt (i.e. 30,000-45,000.)


The EV-1 had a limited range on a charge. This scared many consumers, who were used to being able to make "road trips." If the Volt had a 200 mile range (like the Tesla roadster for example) it would still be a limited range. Yes, I know, you could potentially recharge it in several minutes (if you had a special high-voltage recharging station) but Joe consumer tells himself, "If I run out of gas, all I need to do is carry a can of gas back to my car. What do I do if my battery pack goes flat between exits?"

The Volt has an on-board generator for that purpose (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1#EV1_series_hybrid">something GM experimented with in the 4-seater EV-1 prototypes.) Once you've made that concession, why go with a 200 mile capacity? The majority of GM's potential customers don't need more than a 40 mile capacity for their daily commutes.

It becomes a series of curves. Additional range requires additional weight, additional volume for the battery pack and additional cost. Too low a "pure EV" range may mean a loss of efficiency. What's the balance point? GM seems to think it's around 40 miles (as they did with the EV-1 hybrid variants.)


Years ago, I read Lee Iococca's book. In it (among other things) he talks about the design of the Mustang, and how he managed to keep the cost down. One of the key factors was the reuse of parts. The EV-1 looked (and looks) different from every other GM car. That would mean special production lines for all of the body panels (for example.)

The Volt is just one vehicle, built on a new "platform" called "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_E-Flex_platform">E-Flex." I believe that GM plans to introduce a number of vehicles based on this "E-Flex" platform (they've already introduced 3.) The EV-1's design would not be suited to a wide variety of uses. "E-Flex" OTOH is (reportedly) using components from another platform:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/4257460.html


The Volt's chassis, meanwhile, was thought to offer a unique architecture developed solely for the Volt and its future E-Flex stablemates—not true. The Volt will use the next-gen "Delta" platform for small cars found underneath vehicles like the Chevy Cobalt, with a beam-type rear axle featuring coil springs and McPherson struts upfront. The internal combustion engine rides up front, as expected, but occupies only half the engine room. Much of the development for the hybrid electronics, comes from lessons GM learned from its Two-Mode hybrid program, said chief E-Flex engineer Frank Weber, also suggesting that that the Volt might share some electrical components with Two-Mode.



Let me make a comparison. In the 1960's, NASA went to the Moon with the Saturn V. There's a http://stason.org/TULARC/science-engineering/space/76-What-happened-to-the-saturn-v-plans.html">persistent rumor that they lost the plans to the Saturn V, and so could not build one today if they wanted to. In fact, this is not true. On the other hand, why would they want to build a Saturn V today? Technology has progressed. Lessons have been learned. So, NASA's building a new heavy lifter, and a new smaller orbital booster.


Okay, a few years ago, GM built an EV. They could build it again. However, they learned a number of lessons from the EV-1. Doesn't it make sense to take advantage of them to build a better/more salable vehicle today?

As it turns out, the time-critical element appears to be the lithium-ion battery pack. Even if they decided to start building EV-1's tomorrow, developing the new battery packs would still be the critical factor (they would not be ready for use in an "EV-2.")
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-10-08 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
7. delete
Edited on Sun Aug-10-08 12:52 PM by wtmusic
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