Anyone have any tips on how to talk to Americans addicted to their gas guzzlers??

[primavera]

Okay, I admit it: I fucked up. I got into a flame war over in LBN about why many Americans seeking cleaner, more fuel-efficient vehicles are buying imports like the Prius and the Yaris these days. I'm still not quite sure what happened, but I came under immediate attack for dissing American cars. Suddenly, in the opinion of my remarkably vocal critics, I was some smug, Prius-driving yuppie pond scum who didn't care at all about the environment, but just wanted to bash America. My fellow DUers came up with an amazingly detailed and unflattering psychological profile of myself and my parentage. Somewhere along the way, I began to get pissed off and, well, let's just say things went downhill from there. For anyone with a strong stomach and the inclination to review a brilliant example of how not to talk to Americans hooked on gas-guzzlers, you can check out the gory details at http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3336959&mesg_id=3336959.

This episode has made me acutely aware that I need to work on my approach to people who love their cars. But I'm not really sure how to say what I believe needs to be said on the topic of Americans' excessive fuel consumption without offending people. I mean, if you accept, as do most people outside the Bush administration, that global warming is a very real and imminent danger, and two, that automobile emissions are a major contributor to that threat, logic demands that, if we want to do something about reducing the danger of global warming and its consequences, we'd better start doing something about our automobile emissions, right? Any flaw in that logic? So what do you say to someone who claims to be concerned about global warming, but then elects to buy a muscle car that gets 20 mpg because s/he just doesn't care for the way smaller, more fuel-efficient vehicles handle? How do you respond to someone who claims that they're doing their part to reduce consumption of fossil fuels by buying the SUV that gets 20 mpg instead of the one that gets 15 mpg? Okay, I guess that's nice, but what I mostly want to say to people who make such statements is that it's way, way, waaay less than they could be - and need to be - doing.

But now I've crossed a line: now I'm presuming to tell people that they need to give up their SUVs and their muscle cars and their luxury sedans and their monster trucks. No wonder I'm pissing people off, that is pretty presumptuous of me. But, that readily conceded, how do you get across the message that miniscule differences in gas mileage are likely to offer too little, too late to have much impact upon global warming, and valuing how fast you can go from 0-60 over the possibility of a global climatic catastrophe is... well, not to mince words, pretty fucking selfish? Anyone have any suggestions to offer, anecdotes to share?

[rwenos]

1. I laugh about my 1994 Ford Escort

Self-deprecating jokes are always the best.

"Don't laught, it's paid for."
"And it gets 38 mpg on the freeway, Baby."

Humor avoids flame wars. And it's probably the best way to change people's minds, anyway. Think of it this way -- what happened to Dan Quayle after Leno kept making jokes about him?

[Mz Pip]

2. I suspect that most people

will come to the conclusion that big muscle cars are going the way of the dinosaur. I suppose if someone wants to spend 150 bucks evertime they fill up it's their perogative but there will be a point of diminishing returns.

It will happen because gas will get get more and more expensive and the flash just won't be worth it.

[primavera]

6. I hope that's enough to do the trick

I keep laughing that, for once, I'm actually grateful for something that happened on the shrub's watch, namely that gas prices have finally begun to reach a point which will make Americans question whether they really need a Hummer to drive themselves to the grocery store. I confess, it would be nice if Americans were more willing to do the right thing for reasons other than just their personal economic considerations, but whatever gets you there I suppose.

[silverojo]

20. The Hummer is a completely unnecessary vehicle

It's just a surrogate penis for men, and a status symbol for women. Military-styled vehicles have no place on the street unless a war is taking place in the vicinity. :mad:

[AndyTiedye]

25. It's an Ugly, Overbearing Vehicle for Ugly, Overbearing People

[robinlynne]

7. Yep. It's already happening on it's own. Even GM says it will produce electric hybrids.

"says".

[AtheistCrusader]

49. Yeah, they won't completely screw that up.

Screw hybrids, I don't even care. I need an electric car that can actually cruise at 70mph, with a 100 mile range, and seat 4 human beings. I can do about 95% or better of my living with a device that can meet those requirements. Bonus points if it's under $20k US, and can survive a collision with a road cone.

Right now I'm loving my 05 Scion xB. Gets about 34-35mpg. Someday even that will be too expensive to operate.

[primavera]

57. The technology's out there

Tesla makes an all-electric sports car that will go from 0-60 in 3.9 seconds, with zero emissions, mileage equaivalent to 135 mpg with an average cost of 2 cents per mile, and will go 220 miles on a charge. Right now, it's just one compnay making a small number of them, so the price is prohibitively expensive (around $100K), but plainly the technology does exist - right now, not 100 years from now, but today - to make perfectly viable electric cars, we just need to get the cost down to the point where an average person can afford one. Admittedly, that's going to be tough with the all powerful oil and gas industry fighting the development of such vehicles every step of the way, but that's a political problem, not a technological one - the technology's here now and works great.

[gateley]

3. You don't need to talk to them.

You're not going to change anyone's mind. So relax. You're doing your part with the car you drive. :hi:

[primavera]

13. I suspect you're right

Certainly I haven't had much luck preaching the virtues of hybrid vehicles. If anything, I've probably done more damage to them by impressing people that Prius owners are smug, self-righteous, and preachy. Sigh. Sorry, people, my intentions were good at least.

[Captain Angry]

4. Some thoughts.

1: For the people excited about 20mpg over 15mpg, it IS a 33% improvement. :-)

2: Some people still don't believe in climate change in relation to human influence. If they don't by now, they're not going to. No sense in arguing it. It's too big for some. Others don't care since nothing will change before they're long dead.

3: People from the USA identify with their vehicle more than any other culture. Muscle cars might be their connection with their dad. The luxury car a personal goal. The big truck offers them the ability to go camping with their kids. You're not going to change any of that.


My situation: I had an attempted sports car, which means good looking but slow. But it got decent mileage. Into the 30's. It was the first car I ever bought, and I drove it for 6 years. I gave it to my brother who drives it now. I replaced it with a hybrid SUV. I preordered and bought the 2005 Ford Escape Hybrid 4WD. I did this for several reasons. 1: I wanted a union built hybrid. 2: I wanted to vote with my dollars to show a US automaker that there is demand for a hybrid. 3: I play ice hockey and my gear wouldn't fit in a Prius (if it had been made in the USA). I live in an area that sees a lot of weather, and 4WD only reduced potential mileage by 2mpg.

By being one of the first hybrid drivers in the state, I was a novelty. I gave rides, let other people drive it, and was the designated lunch driver since my friends all had pickups or large SUVs.

I am going to drive this for as long as I can, or until I have a decent job again AND a 100mpg car comes out. When that happens, the SUV will go in the garage for winter driving, and I'll be in the new car in good weather.

I don't try to teach anybody about climate change, but I'm OVERT about the things that I've done. My friends compared me to the South Park snob episode, but not because I became arrogant, but because I wouldn't shut up about the things I was doing to cut back on consumption.

I had bumperstickers on my wall at work about hybrids, had a watt-meter on my desk so that people could take it home and figure out what cost them the most to operate, etc. I talked about my electric bill being under $20.00. How I'd basically sealed off the rooms I didn't need and was going to buy a smaller house when I moved next. I had brochures for solar panels at my desk, etc. So I was a serious pain in the ass, but EVERYBODY knew who to go to when they got curious.

Now, I'm unemployed, so I'm not putting any miles on my car. I walk to lunch if I do go out for food. I'm a little too far to walk home with groceries, so I just save up and do a big run instead of smaller purchases.


So, back on track. You will never make any headway with somebody who is interested in speed off the line. It's the opposite mindset of what they'd need to have. In a nation that values a sport where people drive in a circle 500 times every weekend, we have some work to do.

[primavera]

10. Thank you for the great reply

Living in an urban area already awash with Priuses, I haven't gotten quite the same novelty value out of my car (although I do get the occasional question). But I've had a like experience with my little motorscooter, which gets close to 100 mpg. I admit, I take a certain perverse pleasure from filling up at the gas station next to some big SUV that's just pumped $100 bucks into his/her vehicle and sympathetically lamenting the rising cost of fuel: "Damn, can you believe these gas prices? Why, I must have spent $5 on gas this month!" :evilgrin:

But thank you again for sharing your experience with educating through example, I think that's a great way of making a positive impact.

[Captain Angry]

12. You can't force people to learn. They have to want to.

I just made sure they knew where to come to find out more.

My experience at the gas station is a little different. Whenever somebody driving a non-hybrid Escape sees me, they ask how my mpg is. I reply 33 this tank, and it will improve as it gets warmer. They get quiet and say thanks. (They knew they could have spent the extra $3000 or so, but it wasn't cool.)

[primavera]

14. Good advice

I've gotten an amazing number of queries from people about my motorscooter, and I always point out the advantages in terms of fuel economy, maneuverability, parking etc., I'm almost positive that I've won over at least one or two people that way.

Any, thanks again. I'm off the bed, but have a great night!

[silverojo]

21. Sadly, that vehicle can't transport a family

And you pay for that fuel economy in the increased risk of getting your brains splattered all over a major street. I used to want a motor scooter, till I saw one in an accident. The sight of a street bathed in blood from a fatal injury caused me to save up for my first car, instead.

[primavera]

33. No, that's very true

Scooters are very limited in their application and I would certainly never recommend anyone take one on a freeway, for instance. But, if you live in a densely-populated urban area (as many of us do), where traffic prevents people from going much above 25 mph anyway, I'm not sure they're any more dangerous than, say, bicycles. In a way, you actually have a bit of an advantage over bicycles in that you're bigger and covered in flashing lights, so you're more visible to drivers. You also are better equipped to keep pace with traffic. If you're on a bicycle going 15 mph and a car behind you is driving 30 mph, the car will overtake you fairly quickly; if you're going 25 mph on a scooter, it will take the car longer to overtake you, giving the driver of the car that much more time to notice you. And, if you are in a crash, the frame of the scooter will give you at least a little more protection than a bicycle would give you and you're probably also wearing a standard motorcycle helmet, which provides considerably greater protection than a cycling helmet. But of course, you're quite right that you don't have the same protection you'd have in a car and you're limited to one passenger at most, so they're not for everyone. But for some people, they can be a great choice. Just look at how popular they are throughout Europe - you see more people on scooters in some places than in cars.

[AndyTiedye]

26. The Ford Escape Hybrid is Still the Most Fuel-Efficient and Cleanest-Running SUV in the US

We have one too. Bought it in '04.


It is excellent for longer trips and those involving bad roads
requiring some ground clearance. There are some places a
Prius wasn't meant to go.

I have seen some Escape Hybrids being used as delivery vehicles.
This is not surprising, as the hybrid powerplant is ideal
for the sort of stop-and-go that kind of use entails.

[Captain Angry]

31. I would have bought mine sooner...

But they did the staged rollout of the 4WD model. The coasts got the 2WD, and then it wasn't until May 2005 that the 4WD model was released to the states in the middle.

[Speck Tater]

5. Why take their problems on your own shoulders?

Don't you have enough problems of your own? Do you really need to go find problems that belong to other people?

They will learn when they learn, and not one minute before.

They are losing something very dear to them. There's grief and mourning to deal with. Remember, each person has to go through grief in their own way and on their own time table. And it always starts with denial. Let them work through their denial in their own good time.

They CAN learn. They WILL learn. But you, or me, or anyone else will NEVER teach them what they are not prepared to accept. In the mean time just leave them be.

[tom_paine]

8. I don't know. Anyone know how to talk to a junkie and convince him to take smaller doses of heroin?

Same thing.

[primavera]

11. LOL!

I love the analogy, but it falls short in one respect: at least the heroin junkie knows s/he's an addict. What astonishes me is how many people, even here on my beloved DU, are all ready to support measures to combat global warming - as long as it affects somebody else. It apparently never dawns on us to think that we ourselves might be contributing to the very problems we're railing against.

[tom_paine]

19. Human Nature. n/t

[depakid]

39. Unlike the herion junkie, Americans have been bombarded with advertisement

and propaganda that reinforces their behavior and drives demand.

For example, back in the 80's, young women used to like to drive VW Rabbit convertables -cute, fun to drive, easy to park. That gave way in the 90's to hulking SUV's which are a bitch to drive in the city, are a pain to park and aren't safer especially in inexperienced hands, due to the their handling and braking characteristics.

Basically, a migration from pot to heroin.

[Extend a Hand]

9. I don't tell people what to drive

I tell people to google "peak oil"
and tell then that I'm preparing and I don't want to bad karma in the future for not warning other people. If we're at my house I show them my electric bike. Most people still look at me like I'm crazy but at least I'll not have bad karma for not trying to warn people ;)

[defendandprotect]

16. You don't mean a ...

motorcycle, do you?

I've really always wondered why electric bikes-- which are quiet, right? --- have never been
that popular in the US that I'm aware of.

I would have loved to have had one ---

How much?

[Captain Angry]

17. The ones I've seen are from $800 - $2000+.

I'm holding off on stuff like that until I have a job. :-)

[Extend a Hand]

30. no it's an electric bike

it was expensive (for a bike) but way cheaper than a car ($1200) for a steel slightly used model.
Here is the one I bought
http://www.bicycleman.com/bionx-electric-bikes/index.htm

This is the store where I bought it. We drove up to NY one weekend and this guy lets people try them out. He has a huge selection. http://www.bicycleman.com/recumbents/recumbents.htm

[defendandprotect]

40. ooohoo . . that's different looking --

Was just also reading that scooters are becoming more popular as gas prices soar/yahoo --- video

[defendandprotect]

15. Tell them to rent the movie, "Who Killed The Electric Car?" . . .

Explain to them that American car manufacturers aren't stupid enough to be making cars for the past
30 years with dropping MPG . . . but that they were working for the oil industry in ripping off Americans.

They are also dropping SUV's --- sitting on lots for a year now --- and getting worse.
If they read any news they will know this --- ??? !!!

We need to nationalize the oil industry --- in fact, take back control of all of our natural
resources from the few private families that control them.

If GM doesn't want to do it, Congress can raise a corporation to produce Electric Cars --
and we can subsidize both ends of it --- manufacture and purchase. We can replace all the
gas-guzzlers on our roads in 3-5 years.

Who are these people voting for --- ?

Are they concerned about single payer health care or McCain privatizing Social Security?

Have they noticed that our temperatures are averaging 25 degrees above normal?

It's not even mid-June and here in NJ we have temps going into the high 90's ... !!!

[primavera]

34. Oh man, don't even get me started

I can't even talk about Who Killed the Electric Car? without just getting enraged. I firmly believe that one of the core causal factors in our complacency on vehicle emissions has been our honest belief that we didn't have much choice in the matter, that the tehcnology simply wasn't available to produce electric vehicles more viable than the garage project toys of hobbyists. Now I learn than the technology to produce a perfectly viable all electric car has been available for decades and that technology has been intentionally withheld from the American public? We could have been driving these things and setting an example for other American motorists for 30 years now! Oh, the evil of it all! :mad: I know, I'm doing it again, sounding like some radical ecoterrorist. See, this is why I can't discuss Who Killed the Electric Car, it just gets me too riled up.

[defendandprotect]

41. THAT's what's supposed to happen --- can you imagine the feelings when people

discover that we're going to lose humanity --- and possibly the planet itself --- because the personal families who control the oil industry didn't want to move on --- and they had the
money to run decades of propaganda denying GW!!!???!!!

This is only stage one anger as far as I can see re electric cars ---

Meanwhile, if we spread the word --- nationalize oil --- get electric cars on the roads ---
we can do it quickly -- 3-5 years --- subsidize both ends of it --- mfg and purchase!!!

And, wow -- what beautiful cars!!!

Easy maintenance ---

The oil industry --- and the American car mfgers should all be in jail!!

[silverojo]

18. Try telling people to slow down

That'll really get the temper tantrums going, LOL.

In all honesty, not everybody is physically able to stand these super-small cars (for starters, the seats are really painful if you have back or muscle problems...a problem with ALL newer cars). Plus, I live in a small town and have to drive to a nearby city for doctor visits, shopping, etc. So I need a car with enough room to stow a month's worth of groceries for a family; sadly, our town's only small grocer is unable carry a fraction of what the average family needs.

So, even though I have a sedan, I do what I can to save gas. First, SLOW DOWN. It makes a HUGE difference! Second, combine trips. Third, don't use the air conditioning unless you absolutely have to (I know that, in the desert areas, doing this could result in illness or death, so I don't include desert-dwellers in this!). Fourth, move as close as possible to where you work. Finally, keep your tires inflated properly, and keep your car in good shape.

By doing this, I'm able to get by on just $24 worth of gas per month, at $4/gallon.

Sure, I'd love to get a Prius, if I could tolerate sitting in it, or if I could afford one. But I can't. Actually, I'd love to see the day when SUV's that use alternative fuels were readily available.

But right here, right now, in this economy (who the hell can afford a new car, anyway?), the best thing to do is do the best you can with what you've got.

I know you mean well, but you are being a bit presumptuous. Since moving back to small-town America, I can completely understand why people love their SUV's. When they're able to drive into town for a doctor's appointment in the dead of winter, and I'm stranded at home...who's the idiot? The person with the power to get where he's going, or the person who lectured about SUV's while completely forgetting other people's needs (= me), and discovering that I'm at a huge disadvantage?

I've actually found that most people around here manage by using their cars to get around, while leaving their pickups/SUV's parked at home. Then, when they need the larger vehicles for hauling, or to get through difficult road conditions, they use them.

Yes, there are those people who use their monster trucks as their surrogate penis, and the idiots who think they should race on the freeway as if it's a NASCAR track. These people deserve all the criticism we can throw at them.

But there are situations that require larger vehicles, and ways we can reduce consumption now. With luck, in the future, we'll be using some sort of alternative fuel or a hybrid, so that everyone can drive what they want, without damaging the environment.

Of course, convincing the Chinese and Indians to do the same is going to be one hell of a hard sell....

[defendandprotect]

42. Well, as far as I can see today's Toyotas and Hondas are probabl y

near as big as our American cars --- they USED to be smaller ---
and the gas mileage is still almost double?

The Prius is a bit weird --- but this is a first outing --- we're decades behind!!!

And when you start talking about electric cars --- see: "Who Killed The Electric Car?" . . .
they are beautiful and the pretty much as big as American cars.

[AndyTiedye]

22. Which Car Goes Faster At Rush Hour, The Muscle Car, or the Prius WITH THE CARPOOL LANE STICKER

:) :) :)

[TreasonousBastard]

23. The quick answer is not to talk, but...

to just beat the crap out of them.

Slightly more thought does bring up a few things, though. First is that we have somehow become an entitlement society-- we should have what we want.

Well, for a wealthy society that's not necessarily always a bad thing, but it does cause problems when what you want affects me. It's easy to call you out on playing a loud radio at 3 AM, but tougher to call you out on driving a gas hog that's helping to raise gas prices, clogging the roads, and adding to smog and global warming. In both cases you believe you have a "right" but it's tougher to prove your right doesn't exist on the second one.

It also pays to remember that there are some out there who drive their gas hogs not only to prove to us peons that they can afford to buy the beast, but afford to run it, too. When they complain it cost $150 to fill it up, this type is not complaining, but bragging that they HAVE $150 to fill it up.

There are many more who have either bought into the bullshit of advertising and/or who have convinced themselves of the many reasons why they absolutely need such a vehicle.

There are, of course, those who actually do need such a vehicle (though not as many as claim they do).

None of the above will be terribly interested in any criticism of their choices, so we're back to just beating the crap out of them.

[primavera]

35. Okay, you and I should definitely not get together

We'd be in jail in no time for beating the crap out of SUV and monster truck drivers! :hi:

[AndyTiedye]

24. The $$$$$ Dials on the Gas Pumps Will Do the Talking

[provis99]

27. your angry respondents sound like my brother-in-law

After he quit his job, he mortgaged my sister's business to buy a pickup truck, his very own surrogate penis. He was obviously having a midlife crisis and was apparently becoming impotent. The pickup truck was a Nissan "Titan". Freud makes more sense to me every day...

But if you think big vehicle owners suffer from a Freudian complex, check out the gun forum on our very own DU...

[Cobalt-60]

28. They'll keep feeding their Asphalt Elephants until the money is gone

It seems that the higher gasoline rises in price the faster the pickups
and SUVs push through traffic.
I've had otherwise rational people argue that they get better mileage at 70 than 60.
And some of them just love their big old cars.
I feel their pain.
When I sold my Impala SS it was like removing a limb.
But it was too much car for commuting.
It had to go. Feeding it would have pulled me into the abyss.
Some of the people herding these beasts will eventually be driven to smaller machines.
Others unfortunate enough to require large vehicles will be driven to more efficient operation.
I just cant believe 4 bucks a gallon isn't painful enough to inflict the lesson on everyone.

[defendandprotect]

44. See: "Who Killed The Electric Car" . .. and let's move on it!!!

[Warpy]

29. The truth is that they KNOW

which is why they're getting defensive. Most of them are in upside down loan positions, meaning they owe more on the monstrosity than they can get for it in sale or trade and that means they're stuck with them. That gives them an incentive to find something to love about the beast that's eating them out of house and home. So telling them what they already know is just rubbing salt into wounds they already feel.

The truth is also that the US companies make decent small cars, sturdy and efficient. You'd just never know it from their advertising. The big 3 are handing the small car market over to foreign companies on a silver platter by not promoting their own cars. Undoubtedly the US makers will be offering hybrids in the future, along with plug in varieties.

By telling people to dump the beast they're stuck with and buy a foreign economy model, you do come off as elitist and preachy. People know what you're saying is true every time they have to put gas in the thing and listen to it slurp up the first five dollars worth as they turn the key in the ignition. What they don't want is to hear it from other people who have already been in a position to switch to something they don't have to mortgage their first born to drive.

[primavera]

36. Excellent point

I think you're right that I give people too little credit for being able to arrive at sensible driving choices independently, although to you look at the the number of gas guzzlers still on the road and listen to the vitriolic responses of gas guzzler defenders and you can imagine how I got this way. But rubbing salt in the wound is defintiely not going to help. Thanks for your insight, I hadn't thought of it that way.

[tinrobot]

32. Fuel efficient cars are sexy

This article explains it all:

EcoGeeks get all the girls

Just in case you needed another reason to care about the environment: It turns out girls dig guys who dig environmental technology.

According to a study conducted by GM as part of this year's Challenge X competition:

* Nearly 9 in 10 women (88 percent) say they'd rather chat up someone who owns the latest fuel-efficient car versus the latest sports car.

* Eighty percent of American car buyers would find someone with the latest fuel-efficient car more interesting to talk to at a party than someone with the latest sports car.

* More than 4 out of 10 (45 percent) 18- to 43-year-olds say it's a fashion faux pas nowadays to have a car that's not green or environmentally friendly.

http://green.yahoo.com/blog/ecogeek/539/ecogeeks-get-all-the-girls.html

----

Half the reason people buy gas guzzlers (particularly sports and muscle cars) is because they think those cars are sexy. Well, those cars USED to be sexy. The paradigm has shifted. The people who buy cars for sex appeal will catch on soon enough...

[primavera]

37. In a related vein...

... just had to share this.

[MountainLaurel]

38. Should I sneak over and post that?

And then quickly leave?

:evilgrin:

[Boomer]

43. Try talking Zero Population Growth

You think you get flamed, just try bringing up the subject of how every new baby is yet another drain on finite resources. Your discussion will seem like a love fest in comparison.

To paraphrase:
"This episode has made me acutely aware that I need to work on my approach to people who love their children. But I'm not really sure how to say what I believe needs to be said on the topic of Americans' rising population growth without offending people."

Sad truth is, some topics are too incendiary for people to actually hear what you're saying.

[defendandprotect]

45. Religious teachings are a big block to sanity re overpopulation . . .

patriarchy is basically suicidal and had a lock on women's bodies and reproduction for hundreds of years and more ---

You can go as far as parents recognizing that when they have more than one child, they're creating
competition for the first child --- for their time, family resources, money for education ---
jobs ... whatever!!! Right?

[primavera]

46. Okay, you got me, that one would be a tough sell!

Although I confess to being surprised by just how attached people are not merely to being able to own and operate vehicles, but to specific types of vehicles. Personally, I've always looked on a car as a means of conveyance, no more, no less. From my point of view, the only reason I haven't been driving a Prius or a Yaris or whatever my whole life is because they weren't available earlier. So I keep thinking that everyone should be as delighted as I am that this technology is now available to the mass market and I have a hard time understanding why not everyone is as excited about it as I am. But, as one of the other posters on this thread observed, for many Americans, a car isn't just a car, but some mystical part of their social upbringing, a sacrosanct manifestation of their hopes, dreams, aspirations, a visceral part of their self identity. Who knew? And here I thought it was just a box with wheels and seats that performed a certain function. Oh well, call me an idiot.

[MountainLaurel]

47. Oh lordy, isn't that the truth

Been there, watched the discussion board implosion when that topic came up.

[CRF450]

48. Like I said in that thread, people have preferences and tastes for what they like/dislike

I for one prefer a high performance car, and a truck for my job and other utility purposes. Thing is, I dont get to drive the car that much, I'm forced to drive the truck alot now this time of the year, so whats the point in getting an econo car? (speaking strickly of my situation)

Additionally many people live lifestyles that when it comes to automobiles or general transportation, we have no alternatives. Its gonna be much easier for cars to switch to more effecient alternatives, but what about the SUV's, trucks and commercial vehicles? They still have to have the power and utility they currently have to get the job when needed at anytime.

Even if a Prius is the only most suitable vehicle for most people, its still not for everyone despite saving a ton in gas. I just dont like because of its looks, performance, handling. I just flat out hate how it drives, the same goes for most econo cars. I care about the environment like everyone else here does, I'm not going to pay 15 grand or more for an auto I'm not to going enjoy driving. Much less afford one, cause I have a house now.

[kestrel91316]

50. Sadly, we have a large libertarian contingent here who seem to

have us confused with them. They will viciously attack anyone who suggests the American Way of Life (TM) is not viable with respect to the use of gas hog vehicles.

And the pro-US car thing I just don't get. I gave US cars two tries and they failed miserably. But I'm a bad person for having a Honda and driving it for TWENTY YEARS..........

[primavera]

55. Agreed

One does seem to keep coming up against this sacrosanct "American Way of Life" thing quite often, as if it were some inviolable, carved in granite, eternal quality. Which is kind of a problem, because most conditions change over time, and what may be appropriate in one context may not be in another. Yet we stick to this notion that perceived rights and freedoms we laid out for ourselves centuries ago should never change. No matter how much the population grows, how much technology changes, how much the environment or public health degrades, any suggestion of changing behavior is unfailingly met with the same "Well, of course we all care about protecting the environment, just so long as it doesn't impact my American Way of Life lifestyle choices, so long as actually doing anything about it remains somebody else's problem." Sigh.

:banghead:

[NYC_SKP]

51. It never came up that I'd tell anyone to give up their SUV.

But when the topic has arisen, my comments have been met with "but I need the passenger space", to which I might say, "well get a 7 passenger Camry wagon" until I realize that they were taken of the US market after 2006 (but available elsewhere).

The bottom line, only when the price of fuel rises will many folks give them up.

I do, however, gloat whenever possible about the mileage of my Prius and I talked my sister and girlfriend into a hybrid Camry and hybrid Civic.

[Howzit]

52. Your prejudice against gas-guzzlers may need a little tune-up

All you know about someone driving an SUV or muscle car is that they have chosen to drive these vehicles. You don't know anything about their other life choices, or how these combined decisions affect the volume of fuel they consume.

Consider person "A" using a 20 MPG vehicle to commute 5 miles to work each way. Compare this to person "B" who chooses to drive a 50 MPG vehicle, but commutes 50 miles each way. Both of these people have chosen where they live, where they work and what they drive.

If your goal is to reduce fuel consumption, then you must recognize that person “B” would use 4 times as much fuel as person “A”. Yet, you would censure person "A" and congratulate person "B" because all you know about them is what you can see. This is prejudice, plain and simple.

You might state that person “A” would do even better to buy a more fuel efficient vehicle, but, as your total miles travelled approaches zero, the seemingly all important MPG multiplier becomes irrelevant.

While you may hate the average SUV driver, you cannot tell how far any given person commutes in their gas guzzler and as such should refrain from expressing ire towards that individual. They may very well use less fuel than you do in your Prius.

[Howzit]

53. PS: I don't own an SUV, but until the fascists take over

I support your right to spend your money any way you choose. Frugal is smart, but let's not make a religion out of it. If you believe MPG is all that matters, lead by example. The rest will follow as the price of fuel goes up. Those with long commutes will naturally favor fuel efficient cars. Leave the rest alone.

[primavera]

54. I do my best

Actually, I'm person "C" in your scheme above - I drive a Prius and have a short commute. But I try not to use the Prius much, as I can consume even less fossil fuel and put out even fewer ozone-depleting emissions by taking my scooter, which gets 100 mpg. Happily, I don't need to use either gas vehicle too often, as I can walk and bicycle to many places I need to go. Under the circumsances, 10 gallons of gas lasts me about two months.

As for fascists taking over, that's too easy a dismissal of any form of government regulation. Do you perceive evidence of fascists having taken over in the fact that we have stoplights, preventing us free Americans from just blasting through intersections as we might like? Or laws against drunk driving, encroaching upon our freedom to get crocked and go out and operate a motor vehicle? Or speed limits, restricting our freedom to drive 120 mph through densely populated areas? Please. Such laws exist for valid reasons, to prevent people from behaving in ways potentially harmful to other people. We live in a free country (well, except for the Patriot Act), but there is no freedom to engage in behavior harmful to others. Consuming excessive quantities of a shared and finite natural resource, such as gasoline, and, in the process, producing excessive quantities of toxic emissions which have a well-documented negative impact upon public respiratory health and, now, it seems, contribute as well to global climatic shifts with potentially catastrophic consequences... well, call me crazy, but that sounds like a bona fide harm to me. If people's behavior is producing harmful effects, then why on earth shouldn't it be regulated?

[Nihil]

56. Don't go getting smart ...

... and bringing out that old-fashioned logic when people want to
holler about their "rights" ...

> If people's behavior is producing harmful effects, then why on earth
> shouldn't it be regulated?

Well said! :thumbsup:

Unfortunately there are three things sacred to a "true American man":
1) His penis.
2) His gun.
3) His car.

Once a hint of restricting his "freedom" to use any one of those gets
mentioned, all logic & reason goes out of the window.
:shrug:

[primavera]

58. ROTFL!

Thanks, I needed a good laugh! If only it weren't so true! :hi:

[Howzit]

59. "If people's behavior is producing harmful effects, then why on earth shouldn't it be regulated?"

If you want regulations to reduce fuel consumption and ensure fair utilization, and this seems to be your main objective, then ration how much fuel every individual can consume per year. Don't regulate what vehicle they can buy, because you don't know how they plan to use it.

It bugs me is when well meaning people start believing that they actually know better than the average person, what people need and don't need, should or shouldn't be allowed to do or to purchase. Fascism follows when these well meaning people manage to get sweeping laws passed based on these beliefs.


Edit:Clarification

[primavera]

60. Sure, that would work too

But it seems kind of excessive. I mean, some people will have a legitimate need for more fuel than others, trying to figure out who needs how many ration coupons seems unnecessarily burdensome. Less burdensome, I think, would be to stiffen mileage and emission standards for automobile manufacturers. And, of course, if more people made responsible decisions and voluntarily elected to drive low emission, fuel efficient vehicles, there would be no need for any such drastic measures. Unfortunately, most of us base our decisions not upon what we need, but rather upon what we want, which infrequently coincides with what we actually need, and frequently conflicts with public and environmental health. As a result, we now face air quality and climate change crises and consideration of regulatory solutions is becoming necessary. We had the chance to do the right thing ourselves and we blew it. Don't talk to me about fascism because we now have to lie in the bed we made for ourselves.