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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-06-08 01:50 PM
Original message
Oil surges more than $10 to record over $138
Suuuuuurge!

NEW YORK (Reuters) - Oil jumped $10 to a record over $138 a barrel on Friday, extending a two-day rally to more than $15 on the slumping U.S. dollar and rising tensions between Israel and Iran.

Morgan Stanley forecast falling U.S. inventories could send U.S. crude to $150 a barrel by July 4 amid signs record high prices at the pump are already cutting into demand at the start summer vacation driving season in the world's top consumer.

U.S. crude gained $10.28 to $138.07 a barrel by 2:20 p.m. EDT, adding to gains of more $5.49 on Thursday. London Brent crude rose $9.66 to $137.20.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080606/bs_nm/markets_oil_dc_16;_ylt=AgnMD3TW_cXalYp_hUZLkuqAsnsA

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GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-06-08 01:54 PM
Response to Original message
1. Spot prices have soared too
06 June 2008 18:40 GMT

Brent Blend 132.45
Tapis 135.54
Alaska North Slope 138.35
Bonny Light 137.45
Dubai 1M 132.27
Forties 132.55
Louisiana Sweet 142.87
Minas 131.72
Oman 1M 125.80
Urals 127.85
WTI 138.48
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Speck Tater Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-06-08 01:55 PM
Response to Original message
2. Does anyone know what the daily trade limit is on oil?
Most commodities have a limit price change per day, after which trading is shut down. Does this apply to oil as well?
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DJ13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-06-08 01:57 PM
Response to Original message
3. ........

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lldu Donating Member (272 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-06-08 02:01 PM
Response to Original message
4. If Morgan Stanley didn't make millions just after they ....
made this statement, I'm sure they did make it later on. This is so crazy that a company that invests money in oil should come out and say "Hey, oil is going up to $150 a barrel" and then profit off the panic they just created!

They need to be fined!
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DerekJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-06-08 02:03 PM
Response to Original message
5. Israeli Threats against Iran?!
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #5
13. Not direct threats. Olmert was just at the White House, I believe
Edited on Sat Jun-07-08 01:06 AM by tom_paine
and urged Bush to stop Iran from getting nuclear weapons "by any means".

It's on DU, so don't take my word for it, do a search for the last week or two of LBN and find the article if you wish - evaluate it and look up others so that you can evaluate the evidence for yourself.

That, IMO, is a thinly veiled threat. But even if it isn't, clearly it means tensions are escalating.

Yes, I agree that saying "Israeli threats against Iran" is a stretch, but not as much as you think.

We have to accept that our people, at least the upper Israeli leadership, has decided to follow the Bushies over a cliff. Here in Bush-Occupied America, our people make up the cream of the Bushie Propagandist Core and other areas. Our wealthiest fifth orthird, has abdicated and joined the Bushies, only 70 years removed from trying to overthrow FDR and ally with Nazi Germany.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/history/document/document_20070723.shtml

It is bitter and it is sad and it is shameful, but it is reality.

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DerekJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 03:55 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. I think you misread my post. I meant to say "May be the Israeli threats to Iran is a reason?!".
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 04:26 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. Wups! My bad.
Edited on Sat Jun-07-08 04:27 AM by tom_paine
:hi:

Like your picture in your sig.
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LaPera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-06-08 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
6. Shit, gas is already $4.55 a gal regular everywhere in my County.....
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Racinante Donating Member (4 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-06-08 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Oil Prices will Crash
NEW YORK (Fortune) -- High-flying tech stocks crashed. The roaring housing market crumbled. And oil, rest assured, will follow the same path down.

Not everyone agrees. In an echo of our most recent market frenzies, some experts pronounce that the "world has changed," and that the demand spikes, supply disruptions, and government bungling we face now will saddle us with a future of $4, $5 or even $10 a gallon gasoline.

But if you stick to basic economics, it's clear that the only question is when - not if - prices will succumb.

The oil bulls are correct in their explanations of why prices have jumped. It's indisputable that worldwide demand has surged, chiefly driven by strong growth in China, India and the Middle East. It's also true that most of the world's reserves are controlled by governments in places like Russia and Venezuela that mismanage production, thus curtailing supply growth.

But rather than forming a permanent new plateau for prices - as the bulls contend - those forces are causing a classically unstable market that's destined for a steep fall.

In a normal oil market, the cost of producing the last, most expensive barrel of oil needed to satisfy worldwide demand sets the price for every barrel the world over. Other auction commodity markets work much the same way.

So even if Saudi Arabia produces at $4 a barrel, if the final, multi-millionth barrel required to heat houses and run cars costs $50, and is produced, for argument's sake, at a flagging field in West Texas, the world price is $50. That's what economists call the equilibrium price: It's where the price that customers are willing to pay meets the production cost, including a cushion, naturally, for profit or "the cost of capital."

But today, the sudden surge in demand and the production bottlenecks have thrown the market radically out of balance.

Almost exactly the same thing happened in the housing market. And both housing and oil supply react to a surge in demand with a long lag. In housing, the lag is caused by restrictive zoning and development laws, especially in coastal markets like California and Florida.

So when the economy roared back in 2002 and 2003, builders couldn't turn out homes fast enough for buyers armed with those cheap mortgages. As a result, prices spiked. They no longer bore any relation to the actual cost of buying and improving land, or constructing and marketing a new house (at some reasonable profit margin). Instead, frenzied buyers were setting the price.

Because builders were reaping huge windfall profits, they rushed to buy and develop land. And sure enough, those new houses were ready just as buyers were retreating to the sidelines because they could no longer afford to buy a home. That vast overhang of unsold homes is what's driving down prices today.

The story is much the same with oil, with a twist. A big swath of the market isn't really paying that $125 a barrel number you hear about seemingly every hour. In China, India and the Middle East, governments are heavily subsidizing oil for their consumers and corporations, leading to rampant over-consumption - and driving up prices even more.

But sooner or later the world won't keep paying those prices: Eventually, the price must fall back to the cost of that last barrel to clear the market.

So what does that barrel cost today? According to Stephen Brown, an economist at the Dallas Federal Reserve, that final barrel costs just $50 to produce. And when the price is $125, the incentive to pour out more oil, like homebuilders' incentive to build more two years ago, is irresistible.

It takes a while to develop new supplies of oil, but the signs of a surge are already in place. Shale oil costing around $70 a barrel is now being produced in the Dakotas. Tar sands are attracting investment in Canada, also at around $70. New technology could soon minimize the pollution caused by producing oil from our super-plentiful supplies of coal.

"History suggests that when there's this much money to be made, new supplies do get developed," says Brown.

That's just the supply side of the equation. Demand should start to decline as well, albeit gradually.

"Historically, the oil market has under-anticipated the amount of conservation brought on by high prices," says Brown. Sales of big cars are collapsing; Americans are cutting down on driving. The airlines are scaling back flights.

We've learned another important lesson from the housing market: The longer prices stay stratospheric, the worse the eventual crash - simply because the higher the prices and bigger the profit margins, the bigger the incentive to over-produce.

It's even possible that, a few years hence, we could see a sustained period of plentiful oil supplies and low prices, meaning $50 or below.

A similar scenario occurred following the price explosion in the 1970s and early 1980s. The price spike caused the world to cut back sharply on oil consumption. By the mid-80s, oil prices had fallen from almost $40 to around $15. They remained extremely low for two decades.

It's impossible to predict how the adjustment this time will take shape, just as it was in housing. There the surge in supply came in places the experts swore there was "no supply," and wouldn't be any. Builders found a way to extend vast tracts of homes into California's Inland Empire and Central Valley, and even build "in-fill" projects near the densely-populated coasts.

An earlier bubble is also instructive. In the early 1980s silver prices jumped from $10 to $50 on the theory that the world was facing a permanent shortage of silver. Suddenly ads appeared asking homeowners to bring their tea sets and jewelry to Holiday Inns for a big price. Silver supplies poured from seemingly nowhere, out of America's cupboards, of all places.

And so it will be with oil. We don't know where the new abundance will come from, from shale, or tar sands or coal or an OPEC desperate to regain market share. We just know that it will appear. With prices like these, it always does.
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-06-08 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. We generally don't burn houses, silver, or gold when we buy them.
We do burn oil. If the price of oil does go back down to $70 a barrel, look around and you'll see the smoldering wreckage of an economy that has collapsed in on itself.

This industrial economy was built on inexpensive oil -- the kind that cost $4.00 a barrel. When I was a young man gasoline was practically free. I worked for ten dollars an hour, in a job that still pays ten dollars an hour, and for an hour's work I could fill my gas tank and buy lunch at Taco Bell with the change. I shared an apartment with some other guys, and my share of the rent was $84. With occasional help from my parents and grandparents I graduated from college without taking out a single loan.

You can't do anything like that today, and mostly it's because that easy $4.00 a barrel oil has been burned up.

Bummer. That inexpensive oil is not stashed away in "America's cupboards" somewhere, it's gone forever.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-06-08 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. What are you saying that relates to Racinante's post?
Your experiences as a youngster and the fact that oil is a consumable commodity are irrelevant to the argument of Racinante.

It is true that "inexpensive oil" to the tune of $12-20 per barrel is gone, what is the point of that to the post you are answering?

Racinante's post is one of the best I've seen on this forum. It's truly refreshing to encounter rationality.

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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-06-08 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Some magical unknown "new abundance" is "rationality???"
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 04:37 AM
Response to Reply #11
16. It's called Cornucopianism, and it still might yet turn out ot be true
Edited on Sat Jun-07-08 04:39 AM by tom_paine
For instance, if we discovered large scale pollution-free fusion to power our electricity and oil energy needs.

Then if massive unforeseen technology spinoffs like from the moon project replaced our oil needs in fertlizer, the rest of agriculture, plastics and packaging, and all the rest of the various things oil does chemically as well as energetically.

Finally, if global climate change has not already been set in motion by the time Stage #1, large amounts of fusion recators powering a majority of cities in the world, comes on line, thus smashing our efforts with rising seas, storm, drought, and the burning of the rainforests and destruction of the temperate forests, collapse in agricultural outputs...

...see? When you start saying it out loud, the Cornucopian Way seems MUCH more of a fantasy based on wishful thinking than that of those they contepmtuously call doomers.

I will make a concession. It is still possible that he Cornucopians are right, though I see no evidence that humanity is stirring very hard to make any of that stuff happen anytime soon (by soon, I mean "decades").
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lectrobyte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-06-08 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. Last time I checked, they weren't burying more dinosaurs...

Supply and demand. More people, more industrializing countries, demand goes up up up... Production, though, seems to be declining or plateauing depending on whose numbers you trust.
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Terry in Austin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. Supply and demand
Exactly. There are way too many excuses being bandied about, while the real story gets ignored. Or denied.

> depending on whose numbers you trust.

The EIA numbers aren't a bad place to start. Production has been essentially flat since 2004. The actual black stuff has been declining -- the total is being fluffed up with an assortment of "stunt liquids" like condensates, ethanol, tar-sands syncrude, etc.

Meanwhile, demand goes up an average of 1.5% a year, a total of 7% since 2004. That's quite a shortfall already. During the '70's oil crises, the shortfall was around 5%, and we know what that did.

We need to get off of this stuff, and fast! Save a dinosaur!

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whistle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-06-08 02:21 PM
Response to Original message
7. How much did the U.S. dollar drop this week?
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