Oops! Chevy Volt Cost Estimates Rise From $30,000 To $48,000 - Wired

[hatrack]

EDIT

Kruse said the battery packs have been configured to fit in the car and they're currently undergoing charge/discharge cycle testing. GM plans to have test mules running soon and a production prototype to show reporters this summer. He said the biggest challenges to meeting the 2010 deadline are getting the batteries nailed down and sorting out the electrical accessories so they don't suck the batteries dry. (Read the latest on the Volt's development from GM here and the Detroit Free Press here.)

Figuring out how to make wipers, a stereo and other accessories that don't kill the Volt's range has proven a tough nut to crack, and it's one reason the Volt's price seems to be rising. The Volt came with a $30,000 price tag when GM unveiled it at the North American International Auto Show last year. At this year's show, Lutz told us it could hit $40,000. Now he's saying it could hit $48,000 and it could be years before GM sees a profit from it.

Kruse didn't have anything to say about that, but it's not unusual for automakers to lose money on new technology. Toyota is widely believed to have heavily subsidized the Prius until it caught on, and GM undoubtedly will have to do the same with the Volt. How long it takes to achieve profitability "will depend upon how the vehicle is received in the marketplace and how quickly we can ramp up production," Kruse says.

GM is counting on the Volt and the Saturn Vue plug-in hybrid (also expected in 2010) to wrest the green mantle from Toyota and help meet tightening federal fuel economy standards and California's zero-emissions vehicle mandate. The California Air Resources Board recently cut the industry a lot of slack by loosening the ZEV mandate but told automakers to ramp up production of plug-in hybrids. General Motors will play along but remains committed to hydrogen fuel cells as the best way to hit triple-digit fuel economy -- even though there's no fueling infrastructure to speak of and California's "hydrogen Highway" is, so far, a road to nowhere. "Like much new technology, a Catch 22 develops," Kruse said. "Will we invest in hydrogen delivery for vehicles that do not exist, or will we create vehicles that you cannot buy hydrogen for? This is where government leadership can help."

EDIT

http://blog.wired.com/cars/2008/04/can-automakers.html

[LisaM]

1. An ex-Toyota employee claimed the Japanese government subsidized the Prius

Toyota denies it, but apparently the relationship between Toyota and the Japanese government skates a very thin legal line.

Don't get me wrong. I think the governments SHOULD subsidize the research.

[DainBramaged]

6. It was the President of North AMERICAN OPERATIONS

Who claims (without any legal action against him or vehement refuting by Toyota) that the Japanese government fully subsidized the Prius so as to save Toyota billions of dollars.

And if you don't think that Lutz was "snowing" the press during this "conversation" keep believing the Volt will cost nearly $50,000.

[DCKit]

11. I've done the math.

At current prices, a Lithium ion batter pack capable of powering an all-electric, small, light commuter car comes in around $30K, and not much less for a plug-in hybrid. The add-on NiMh batter pack for the Prius plug-in upgrade is currently $10K, but would work for most urban commuters.

The American car companies keep moving the goalpost beyond what is reasonable to what is too expensive or unattainable to excuse their continued reliance on current technology and, even though there are a huge number of Americans who are eager for a small, inexpensive, electric-only commuter car, they keep telling us there is no demand - as they did with the EV-1. The time has come and gone when they could successfully shame us into buying American. Too many are fully aware that the people running our domestic car companies don't give a shit.

[rusty_parts2001]

2. Wow--No wonder GM is losing market to Toyota

[DainBramaged]

4. You are clueless

And a statement like that only belies your lack of knowledge about the Domestic car market.

[tinrobot]

8. How is that?

Toyota shipped more cars than GM last year, the first time in 76 years that GM was not the top manufacturer. Toyota also has higher profitability than GM.

Not that I'm a Toyota fan, but the numbers are the numbers. I do hope GM turns it around.

[lectrobyte]

14. Not quite sure what you are getting at. I keep reading articles like this,

and just think it's too bad GM & Ford bet the farm on trucks and SUVs while peak oil was sneaking up on our over-consumptive asses.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601101&sid=aT3FHO.QlyUE

April 1 (Bloomberg) -- Automakers led by General Motors Corp. said U.S. sales dropped last month as record gasoline prices and growing concern the economy may be in a recession kept consumers away from showrooms.

GM's sales plummeted by a greater-than-forecast 19 percent. Ford Motor Co. and Japan's Toyota Motor Corp. fell more than 10 percent for their biggest declines in 2008. Honda Motor Co. and Nissan Motor Co. also slipped, while Germany's Volkswagen AG and South Korea's Hyundai Motor Co. gained.

...

U.S.-based automakers' share of their home market decreased to 48.4 percent from 51.6 percent a year earlier, according to Autodata Corp. of Woodcliff Lake, New Jersey. Asian companies boosted their share by 2.5 points, to 44.4 percent.

Cars outsold trucks for the first time since May 2007, Bloomberg figures show, reflecting a shift in demand amid record high gasoline prices. Trucks are generally higher-priced and more profitable for automakers.

[GoesTo11]

3. I wonder if public transportation would be a better use of $

Make a good system. Save a lot of fuel. Save a lot of money. That kind of thing. Just an idea.

[phantom power]

5. why do you want the terrorists to win?

[OKIsItJustMe]

7. Old recycled news, misreported at the time

Here's the story that started it all:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23778688/

...

But even the plug-ins Lutz is championing could face resistance in the marketplace because of price. GM's Chevy Volt, first unveiled as a concept in January, 2007, can go 40 to 50 miles on a single charge of a lithium ion battery, and then a gas motor kicks in to move the car and recharge the battery at once. The company once targeted $30,000 as the price for a Chevy Volt. But the cost of developing the technology is making that an unreachable dream. Lutz now figures a more realistic price for the Volt would be about $48,000. He reckons that $40,000 might be possible, without making any profit. Only government tax incentives could take the price tag nearer to $30,000.

...

He'd already said that GM wouldn't make a profit at $40,000. Now he says a "realistic price" (i.e. one at which they would make a profit would be $48,000.)


Let's see what he says here:

http://www.mercurynews.com/weekenddrive/ci_8812176

...

Plug-in hybrid cost: While General Motors plug-in hybrid vehicles might still be on track for a 2010 or 2011 launch, the prices will likely be much higher than originally anticipated. General Motors first true plug-in hybrid vehicle will be a version of its two-mode Saturn Vue gas-electric hybrid. It will use next-generation lithium-ion batteries that should allow the Vue to travel 40 miles on electric power only and have a fuel-economy rating of 60 mpg. But according to Lutz, the two-mode hybrid system will add about $8,000-$9,000 to the price of the Vue, with the plug-in technology adding another $8,000-$9,000 on top of the cost of the hybrid system. When all costs are tallied, Lutz says the Vue will list for about $48,000, about $1,000 more than a base Corvette. The Chevrolet Volt will be much more expensive than originally planned when it launches in November 2010. I gave up on $30,000, but I haven t given up on $40,000, Lutz said. He cited higher-than-expected battery prices for pushing up the Volt s price

...

[tinrobot]

9. I remember when a good computer cost $5,000

Now you can get one for less than a grand.

New technology is always expensive. Once development is amortized, prices will come down. I'm happy GM is at least developing the technology.

[Nay]

10. I'm happy that GM is doing the Volt, but dang, our family has a

great double income and I cannot and will not pay $48,000 for a car. I guess I'll be going with a used Corolla, just like I've been contemplating. $5000 and 35 mpg -- not bad. And that extra $43,000 I'm NOT spending on a new car buys an awful lot of gas.

[XemaSab]

13. Get a used Honda instead

:hide:

[DainBramaged]

15. Why not buy a REAL American car

Or is the Japanese marketing propaganda too great to resist?

Put another American out of work, buy Japanese.

[XemaSab]

16. With all due respect

a lot of "Japanese" cars are made in the US, and a lot of "American" cars are made in Mexico or Canada.

I encourage people to do their homework before buying a car.

[DainBramaged]

17. Japanese cars are "assembled" here with Japanese parts

In Non-Union plants with the profits going back to japan, and WE in the Domestic auto industry aren't allowed to compete on a level playing field against them nor can we build manufacturing plants in Japan or Korea to make "Domestic" cars.

We gave them everything to open their plants in the South and Ohio, and we have nothing to show for it except lost tax revenues and the inability to penetrate their markets.

Free trade, good for the Japanese, bad for America.

Every time an American buys a Japanese car, transplant or import (ask Honda where the engines are made) another Union member is kicked in the groin.

[XemaSab]

19. And what happens when a company like Ford or GM

makes their cars in Canada or Mexico? :shrug:

[DainBramaged]

20. With UAW labor in Mexico and Canada

Something the Japanese refuse to allow. We also make cars in Australia, Europe and South America. But we don't (except for the Chevy Aveo, made in Korea, at $9995 the least expensive car in America with a 5 year 100,000 mile powertrain warranty and 35MPG to compete against the Yaris and Fit) import them here to compete with North American products.

[XemaSab]

21. According to the UAW website Toyota Corolla and Tundra are Union Made

:thumbsup:

[DainBramaged]

22. NUMMI

Workers at new United Motor Manufacturing Inc. (NUMMI), a GM-Toyota joint venture; and Mitsubishi Motor Manufacturing of America Inc. (MMMA) also belong to the UAW.

It used to be the Chevy GEO plant.


http://www.nummi.com/

http://www.uaw.org/about/members.html

Ask Toyota why they won't allow the UAW at their other plants.


I

[lectrobyte]

23. And GM is building engines in China and selling them in Chevy's

here. Delphi, isn't that a GM deal too? It's really a global marketplace, and really really hard to tell what's an "American" product anymore.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/26/business/worldbusiness/26chevy.html?ref=business

OSHAWA, Ontario — General Motors car engines were once the stuff of American legend. The Beach Boys sang, “nothing can touch my 409,” about a powerful Chevy V-8. Oldsmobile owners in 1981 were so angered that their cars had been fitted with Chevrolet engines instead of Oldsmobile “Rockets,” the subject of another hit song, that they successfully sued G.M. over the swap.

The company has since eliminated brand distinctions between engines, saddling them with names unlikely to inspire songwriters, like Ecotec, Vortec and Northstar. But some owners of the Chevrolet Equinox, a “compact” sport utility vehicle built in North America, might be surprised to learn the origin of the engine under their hoods — it’s made in China.

Last year, China exported more than $12 billion in auto parts, up from less than $2 billion in 2002 — the majority to North America. The increase in exports has added to the problems plaguing North American suppliers. Most famously, Delphi, which is seeking to emerge from bankruptcy, has closed dozens of plants and moved some production overseas to become more competitive, including to China.

[DainBramaged]

24. How much of he Japanese cars are Chinese content

Delphi isn't a part of GM any longer. And you should check Chinese content in Toyota and Honda, or just track the containers leaving the Port of Los Angeles for their factories in the South.

Starting with the 2008 model, a larger American-made motor became an option in a higher-end version of the S.U.V. The same model of engine as the one made in China is produced at a G.M. engine plant in Tonawanda, N.Y., about a two-hour drive from the Canadian factory that builds the Equinox.

Oh, and this the last year for the Equinox. The engine was part of a joint venture. Just like the Aveo. I noticed you left out that paragraph.


The idea of using the Chinese engine did not sit well with the Canadian Auto Workers, the union that represents workers at the Equinox factory. Because of its complexity, engine assembly uses a higher proportion of skilled, well-paid workers.

And Basil E. Hargrove, the union’s president, blames what he calls unfair trading practices by Asian manufacturers for much of the North American industry’s problems.

“Today it’s South Korea and Japan, and tomorrow it’s going to be China,” he said. “It’s only a matter of time before G.M., Ford and Chrysler are going to deal with the crisis they face by going into these countries and shipping into here. Very few consumers ask: where is the engine built or where is the transmission made?”

[lectrobyte]

29. I'm more of a Mopar fan, can't really comment on Chinese content of Japanese cars.

And speaking of Japanese, doesn't GM now buy engines from Honda? Seems pretty ironic for a company called "General Motors".

[Zachstar]

26. And give a ton of my cash to unions? LOL!

When I decide to drive my car will be a ZENN from CANADA (Their support of EEstor will change the future of driving). US cars are crap in my view and are failing fast.

When EEStor is put into Canada, Tesla, and cars from Japan. US companies that provide little more than good trucks in my view will be defeated.

I'm not going to be sucked in by that union propaganda of being patriotic by buying American cars.

[CRF450]

12. And are you people really sure its going to cost that much?

We'll never know untill its released to the public.

[gear_head]

18. how much tax credit should be allowed, when they go on sale.n/t

[DainBramaged]

25. These threads always become attacks on either GM or American cars

DU members, who refuse to even view the Labor forums even though they are in their best interest, attack threads about GM or FORD or CHRYSLER as if they are part of the Bush administration, and gleefully sing the praises of the imported cars and other crap they buy, knowing the middle clas and our manufacturing base is being sold out.

I will never get it. I thought Unions and Union made products were supposed to be an American right, not poison.

After the election, I will leave here knowing that most on DU who support the imports and aren't Union friendly weren't really Democrats or Progressives, just pretenders.

[Zachstar]

27. Great way to bring people into the party eh DainBramaged?

Then again many people I have seen from a variety of different unions seem to do little more than cause trouble and ruin things for the average worker in my view.

Unions did their job by busting crap like hard child labor and crap pay for hard work.

These days multiple unions seem to be getting into other areas. Like power over parts of America. This VASTLY weakens the case for getting into a union.

Don't give me this crap about "Oh you are a republican, scab or whatever" Truth is I WAS a republican that switched. However, Just because I am a democrat now does not mean I automatically am some flag waving union member.

Some unions have gained my respect. They are generally small and do their jobs well.

However when some damn union tells me to support its base company because it is the American way or whatever, THAT is when I get offended.

Care to answer why your "Brothers and Sisters" Over at another union are going against a superior tanker design?

http://iam2061update.blogspot.com/2008/03/boeing-tanker-battle-continues.html

Why is a union getting involved with a tanker choice? Why is a Union saying we must have a Boeing REPLACEMENT for the KC-135 instead of a SUPERIOR product? The KC-45 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KC-45

Simple fact is that when I want to spend multi thousands of dollars on a machine. I want it to be a quality product and a value product. Until US carmakers and their Unions start making a quality common car I will purchase cars from other nations.

[hogwyld]

28. Didn't know we had to sign a labor loyalty oath

to be a democrat. As an American, I am free to buy whatever I feel is the best product. Right now, neither American car companies, nor the UAW are building them. When they do build a quality product at a good price, I will reconsider. Until then, your bush like calls of "for us or against us" rhetoric only antagonizes us further...