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has anyone tied decline of fresh water & risk of contamination from nuclear waste?

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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-08-07 01:18 PM
Original message
has anyone tied decline of fresh water & risk of contamination from nuclear waste?
Since fresh water will become more scarce because of global warming, the impact of nuclear waste leaking into the water table would be that much greater.

I thought of this because a student did a presentation on Yucca Mountain the other day, and said the risks of nuclear waste were no big deal.
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Tikki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-08-07 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
1. Unfortunately, it will take strong leadership to...
look past short term studies and corporate rigmarole on the effects of all that is nuclear.

Some of us lived it and we know of the sometimes slow but still insidious nature of any deviation in
nuclear protocol and/or safety.


The Tikkis

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Union Thug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-08-07 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Ask the guys who built the plants what they think...
My father's friend was on the crew at Hanford (concrete work, as I recall) and tells stories about the construction of the facility that make me curl up in the fetal position and sob.
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izquierdista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-08-07 01:32 PM
Response to Original message
2. Risks in perspective
That's one of the design factors for nuclear waste, and much care is taken nowadays to minimize any possible contact with groundwater. The only place I know of where radioisotopes are in the ground water is the plume of tritium heading toward the Savannah River in South Carolina (I'm not up on the latest data from Hanford). The problem at those two sites is due to practices of 3 or 4 decades ago though, not current handling of nuclear waste.

It is possible to bury waste BELOW the water table, given the proper geologic profile. If there is an impervious layer below the groundwater, then contamination of the aquifer can be prevented. Yucca Mountain is a reasonable place with a low probability of problems, but I don't think it is the best solution to the problem. I would be more in favor of disposing of ALL nuclear waste in bedded salt formations like the one at WIPP.
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-08-07 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. the Columbia River was contaminated by Hanford
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Tikki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-08-07 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. Isn't it interesting how all of us here....
that grew up in the Tri-Cities or downwind from the areas are concerned
about what Hanford production and waste did and does to the health of the locals
and how those who didn't or don't live near Hanford or any nuclear facility, for that matter, just know
everything about the long term effects surrounding contact with the nuclear industry.


The Tikkis
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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-08-07 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #4
13. 60 Minutes: Lethal And Leaking
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/04/27/60minutes/main1553896.shtml

Lethal And Leaking


April 30, 2006(CBS) Albert Einstein once defined insanity as doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Well, that’s what critics accuse the U.S. Department of Energy of: making the same mistakes over and over in a project that has already squandered billions of dollars in taxpayers' money. But the risk here is far greater than financial, since it involves highly toxic nuclear waste.

At stake are millions of gallons of radioactive liquid waste left over from the making of nuclear bombs, including the one that was dropped on Nagasaki. This waste has been sitting in underground tanks in Hanford, Wash., ever since, while the government tries to figure out how to clean it up. As correspondent Lesley Stahl reports, the waste is so lethal that a small cup of it would kill everyone in a crowded restaurant, in minutes.

...

It is contaminated by waste left over from the production of nuclear weapons. There are 53 million gallons of highly radioactive liquid waste stored in underground tanks that are now so old they have leaked one million gallons of the stuff.

...
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NMDemDist2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-09-07 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #2
16. they are mining like mad at WIPP to increase space for shipments
and the guys that built WIPP are getting hired overseas to start similar projects in Britain and France
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izquierdista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-09-07 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. How about a little pre-planning?
Build the hole in the ground first, THEN put the nuclear reactor in it. And not just something a terrier could excavate in an afternoon, I'm talking half a mile down, like WIPP. Then you don't even have to move the waste at all.
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NMDemDist2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-09-07 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. silly! that would make too much sense
what were you thinking??

:spank:


:rofl:

:cry:
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-08-07 03:35 PM
Response to Original message
5. in-situ uranium mining
They inject acid into the groundwater to dissolve the uranium ore so they can pump it out.
http://www.wise-uranium.org/uisl.html

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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-08-07 04:22 PM
Response to Original message
6. Actually, most of the worlds water supply has been destroyed, probably irrevocably, by
dangerous fossil fuel waste (sometimes called carbon dioxide) and the world's largest, by far, source of renewable energy, hydroelectricity.

As usual though, there are lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of whiny yuppie brats sitting at the computer wondering about what could happen involving radiation and not what is happening on a tens of billion tons per year scale.

In fact, the anti-nuke religion never tires of making stuff up, usually scenarios that are not now, and never have remotely been connected with reality.

Of course, all fundementalist religions start with ridiculous scenarios. The fundementalist Christian religion starts, for instance, with the idea that if you "believe" in evolution, Jesus will come back and fry your ass for eternity. Never mind that the probability of Jesus coming back and actually frying your ass for eternity is essentially zero, the religion depends on you fearing the possibility.

All fundementalist religions begin with premises and then cherry picks fringe scientific opinion to justify patently absurd immutable (or so the fundementalist claims) dogma.

Richard Dawkins - who is one of the most boring atheists on the planet by the way - takes to task the fundementalist geologist Kurt Wise who, despite a PhD from Harvard in Geology, is trying to prove that the world is only a few thousand years old:

http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/dawkins_21_4.html

Dawkins writes:

Kurt Wise doesn’t need the challenge; he volunteers that, even if all the evidence in the universe flatly contradicted Scripture, and even if he had reached the point of admitting this to himself, he would still take his stand on Scripture and deny the evidence. This leaves me, as a scientist, speechless. I cannot imagine what it must be like to have a mind capable of such doublethink. It reminds me of Winston Smith in 1984 struggling to believe that two plus two equals five if Big Brother said so. But that was fiction and, anyway, Winston was tortured into submission. Kurt Wise—and presumably others like him who are less candid—has suffered no such physical coercion.


So it is with the fundementalist anti-nuke religion. If you ask the fundementalist anti-nuke to produce a single incident of a person being injured by the storage of used nuclear fuel, they will not be able to do it. I've done this thousands of times and I have never actually gotten a straight answer because, in fact, the number of people injured by used nuclear fuel in this country is zero. Thus the response I usually get from these fundementalists consists entirely of the claim that I treat them with contempt, which as it happens, is exactly right.

If you ask an anti-nuke to read a scientific paper on say, the external cost of the (industrially nonexistent) wind powered compressed air energy storage system as compared to the external cost of nuclear energy - Denholm, Environ. Sci. Technol. 2005, 39, 1903-1911 for instance - they will simply ignore what the article says, which is that the external cost of such wind energy is estimated to be 4 to 10 times greater than the cost of nuclear energy (as measured in the release of dangerous fossil fuel waste to the atmosphere.)

If I ask an anti-nuke to compare two real numbers, the amount of energy produced by nuclear energy and any other form of climate change gas free forms of energy, the fundementalist anti-nuke will do one or more of the following things: 1) Ignore the numbers. 2) Start talking illiterate "percent" talk. 3) Produce illiterate links to Greenpeace (and dumber) websites. 4) Talk about 2050, when most of us here will be dead. 5) Sulk about how mean I am.

But like all fundementalist religions, the anti-nuke religion depends wholly on obliviousness and indifference to data and experience and for that matter, ethics.

Nuclear power has saved millions of lives. The anti-nuke religion couldn't care less about those lives.

IGNORANCE KILLS. It always has; it does so now; it always will do so. Nuclear energy does not need to be perfect to be vastly superior to its only exajoule scale alternative, coal and all other forms of energy as well. It only has to be vastly superior, which, in fact it is.

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Oerdin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-08-07 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Mine tailings
Don't forget the huge amounts of water fowled by mine tailings, by oil spills, or ground water impacted by gasoline oxygenating agents. Fossil fuels are destroying our water supply RIGHT NOW. Solar has always been a toy which is unable to meet our real needs and wind is great but is unrelayable. Nuclear is the only answer for massive amounts of nongreen house gas electricity.
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-08-07 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. so we don't have to worry about 2050? Some people here might be around then and
most of our children will definitely still be alive.

Nuclear power at best defers the environmental price tag.
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-08-07 07:56 PM
Response to Original message
9. Scarce water is going to kill people the traditional way: famine.
If you want something serious to worry about, worry about how you're going to feed yourself. Not nuclear waste.
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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-08-07 11:30 PM
Response to Original message
11. Groundwater Contamination (Tritium) at Nuclear Plants
http://www.nrc.gov/reactors/operating/ops-experience/grndwtr-contam-tritium.html

Groundwater Contamination (Tritium) at Nuclear Plants

Tritium is a mildly radioactive type of hydrogen that occurs both naturally and during the operation of nuclear power plants. Water containing tritium and other radioactive substances is normally released from nuclear plants under controlled, monitored conditions the NRC mandates to protect public health and safety. The NRC recently identified several instances of unintended tritium releases, and all available information shows no threat to the public. Nonetheless, the NRC is reviewing these incidents to ensure nuclear plant operators have taken appropriate action and to determine what, if any, changes are needed to the agency's rules and regulations. The following information provides further basic information on tritium and other isotopes released from nuclear power plants, outlines the status of the unintended tritium leaks and the NRC's actions.

...
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izquierdista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-09-07 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #11
18. I'll believe that
I'll also believe that a 2-year old with a leaky diaper is no threat to a white carpet.
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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-08-07 11:38 PM
Response to Original message
12. Possible Solution To Groundwater-contamination Threat At Nuclear Waste Sites
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/49060.php

Possible Solution To Groundwater-contamination Threat At Nuclear Waste Sites

09 Aug 2006

Since the discovery a little more than a decade ago of bacteria that chemically modify and neutralize toxic metals without apparent harm to themselves, scientists have wondered how on earth these microbes do it.

For Shewanella oneidensis, a microbe that modifies uranium chemistry, the pieces are coming together, and they resemble pearls that measure precisely 5 nanometers across enmeshed in a carpet of slime secreted by the bacteria.

The pearl is uranium dioxide, or uraninite, which moves much less freely in soil than its soluble counterpart, a groundwater-contamination threat at nuclear waste sites.

The U.S. Department of Energy estimates that uranium contaminates more than 2,500 billion liters of groundwater nationwide; over the past decade, the agency has support research into the ability of naturally-occurring microbes that can halt the uranium's underground migration to prevent it from reaching streams used by plants, animals and people.

...
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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-08-07 11:55 PM
Response to Original message
14. Geologic Problems at Low-Level Radioactive Waste-Disposal Sites
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NMDemDist2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-09-07 10:36 AM
Response to Original message
15. did you read this article?
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Nihil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-10-07 08:47 AM
Response to Original message
20. Only dipsticks who react to a single word.
Edited on Mon Dec-10-07 08:49 AM by Nihil
More will die of thirst through "declining fresh water" than from nuclear waste.

More will die of hunger through "declining fresh water" than from nuclear waste.

More will die of lack of sanitation through "declining fresh water" than from
nuclear waste.

More will die from the lack of power through "declining fresh water" than from
nuclear waste.

More will die from the wars resulting from "declining fresh water" than from nuclear waste.

Many environmentalists are concerned about the above.
Only the ignorant ones are concerned about tying the "decline of fresh water"
to "risk of contamination from nuclear waste".

Sounds like that student should be teaching the class.

(Corrected as you didn't say it was a student in your class.)
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