I need a new hot water heater. I have $800

[Wednesdays]

budgeted for a new unit and installation.

Our old (ca. 1976) natural gas tank is finally biting the dust. We live in Oklahoma City. We don't use a whole lot of hot water at a time, especially after installing a water-saver shower head. The current tank is 40 gal. and that is way more than we ever needed--I think we could easily get by on 15 gallons of hot water at any given time.

We're looking for a new hot water tank (or tankless system)--the most energy-efficient possible, given our budget. We'll consider electric as well as natural gas. Any suggestions?

[panader0]

1. At the Home Depot/Lowes they usually have three levels

of water heaters; good, better and best, each one gets slightly better energy usage. Even the best ones are less than $250.00 and installation is easy. All you need do is shut the water off, disconnect the old one, install the new one and turn the water back on. I wish I was closer, I'd be glad to do it.

[Turbineguy]

18. Be sure to replace those flexible hose sections too.

They work-harden and become fragile and prone to failure.

[Wednesdays]

20. Flexible hose sections?

As far as I can tell, the only things running to and from the tank are hard metal pipes. Sorry, I'm just clueless when it comes to plumbing.

[Turbineguy]

34. Flex hose

usually between the hard pipe and the heater. Installation becomes easier and temperature change stresses are countered.

If you are clueless about plumbing have the heater installed. Although in the grand scheme of things it's not that difficult to do yourself, when you consider the cost of missteps (like breaking the glass liner in the tank or a water leak that you discover after a weekend away) professional installation is a wise move.

I believe Home Depot has a deal where you come in, buy the water heater of your choice, they arrange delivery and installation and cart off the old heater.

[Wednesdays]

27. I have to thank you and everyone for the wonderful insight

This thread has been very helpful. Thanks!

:hi:

[roody]

2. How about the "on demand" type?

[Lasher]

3. Tips from Consumer Reports

Look past capacity. Most water heaters are sold on that basis. But a water heater’s first-hour rating (FHR) is more important, since it tells you how much hot water the heater can deliver in an hour of use.

Determine how much hot water you need based on the busiest hour of an average day. Figure on roughly 2 gallons for shaving, 4 gallons for washing face and hands, 5 gallons for preparing food, 10 gallons for a dishwasher, and 20 gallons each for a 10-minute shower and a load of laundry. Factor in growing children and other issues that can increase your water needs.
Once you’ve arrived at a total, be sure that the FHR on the new heater’s yellow EnergyGuide label meets or exceeds that amount.

Consider gas. Based on national average fuel costs, gas heaters cost roughly half as much to run as electric models and can pay for their higher up-front cost in as little as a year. Factor in the cost of running a gas line to your home if you don’t have one. Also consider adding insulation to hot-water pipes and the cold water pipe exiting the water heater.

You may have heard about tankless water heaters, which save energy by heating only the water you draw. Those savings can add up to some $50 per year compared with conventional heaters. But even at that rate, it will take more than 25 years for an average household to recoup the extra $1,300 or so those units cost to buy, install, and maintain.

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/appliances/heating-cooling-and-air/water-heaters/waterheater-tips-205-gas-hot-water-heater-electric-hot-water-heater/overview/index.htm

Sorry, no CU ratings of water heaters available.

[ret5hd]

7. where did they come up w/ $1300 extra for tankless?

maintenance? essentially $0
installation? no more than installing a new conventional water heater
purchase price? NOT even close to $1300 extra.

[Lasher]

11. Don't know, I just passed the information along as I found it.

Too bad they don't have more information, particularly ratings. Note that the article is over 2 years old. Cheap imports and technology improvements could have changed things by now.

[Wednesdays]

21. See...that's where I'm confused

I've come across similar articles to the CR one you pointed out, and it's not clear whether my using a tankless would save energy and/or money in the long run.

Like I said, my family doesn't use a huge amount of hot water, and we usually time it so we're not using two or more hot water appliances at the same time.

[Lasher]

32. It's not a simple thing.

Big difference between a small point of use application just for a shower, and a whole house setup which seems to involve big bucks. I'm not an expert on the subject that's for sure but I think you might regret it if you just jump into on demand water heaters without first making sure where you're going to land.

IMHO,

Lasher

[China_cat]

17. The one we looked at for our house

is only $750 and anybody even semi-competent in DIY could install it.

[Wednesdays]

22. What model was that?

nt

[China_cat]

28. I'll have to ask my husband.

He's also got the online link to it. I'll have it for you by this evening.

[China_cat]

33. Ok, here's the info

the price is up about $30 since we last looked (other repairs have to come first) but when we do it, it'll be with this company because it's American made (even if some of the components aren't) and that's one of the things we look for.

http://www.gotankless.com/products.html

[Xithras]

44. I would NOT want to take a shower with that thing.

That spec sheet says that the max temp rise at 3 gallons a minute is 64 degrees F. My pipe water is right around 50F, which would put the water at the tap at 114F MAX. That's a fairly warm shower, but not really hot. And that's at 3 GPM! Most showerheads use 7-10GPM...and even low consumption showerheads use around 4. Doing a little math, a 9GPM rainshower head would see a max temp rise of 21 degrees, putting the shower temperature in the low 70's. That's cool, or at the most lukewarm. If someone were to open another tap somewhere in the house, that would get real cold, real quick.

$800 is cheap for a tankless, and it's obvious why that one is so low priced. I wouldn't even want to imagine filling a bathtub with that thing. You can find Bosch units from discounters for $1000 bucks that will do a 75 degree rise at 4GPM...that's the minimum I'd ever consider buying. The Bosch units also run on 120v power so you can run it on existing circuits...the one you linked to requires a dedicated 220v/200amp circuit. With power requirements like that, I have to wonder what that tankless unit would do to your electric bill!

[Lasher]

10. Oops, posted reply in wrong place.

Duh :dunce:

[ret5hd]

4. tankless water heaters save energy and space...

about the size of a phonebook (slightly larger if using gas)

[happyslug]

16. Most I have seen are Larger, but still smaller then a new Tank.

Lowes and Home Depot carry them. I have used one for years with no problem.

[Bruce McAuley]

5. Instant-on natural gas water heater from China...

The cheapest solution for sure.
We bought one using propane for our other house this spring, and it cost around $200 delivered from China.
Bought it on eBay, of course, but even the ones built in Japan(Paloma) are good and can be bought for about double that amount, and other companies build them also.
We've been using a medium-small Paloma for years, and while the shower pressure isn't great, the water will run and stay hot as long as you have the tap on. It's hot enough to do the dishes at a distance of 30 feet or so away. It also works on our washer, but never gets the water really hot there because of the washing machine heat control.
I don't know how it'd work on a dishwasher, I think it would benefit from being close for that.
Heck, for $400, you could buy 2 of the Chinese ones. They work with a sparker rather than a pilot light like the Paloma, but appear of decent enough quality and in my limited experience with it seems functional enough for the time being.
I figure about 5 gallons of propanea month for all our hot water needs is about a rough average, for a 2 person household.
Hope this helps, good luck!

Bruce

[Wednesdays]

23. What part of the country do you live in?

If your winters don't get very cold, I know those kind work very well. The winters here are generally mild, but we occasionally get an arctic cold snap. I remember some of those heaters increase the water temperature by only 48 degrees, and so the water would still be too cold to use.

Still, it's worth looking into. What is the brand name of the one you bought? Or, if there's no name, could you point me to a link of a similar one at eBay or another site?

[Bruce McAuley]

39. I live in eastern Washington State, the cold part...

Our winters get down to -15 below at times, we live in a single wide mobile home, and it depends on how warm you keep the house and how cold the water coming in is.
The Paloma has worked well even in very hard water, and continues to work well even after 5 years of hard use.
The Chinese unit is named Arizbao, and is also a medium small unit, try this link:
http://cgi.ebay.com/INSTANT-TANKLESS-WATER-HEATER-SYSTEM-NATURAL-GAS-NG_W0QQitemZ110154696881QQihZ001QQcategoryZ42234QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
to see a comparable unit, looks the same.
Good luck

Bruce

[Wednesdays]

40. Thanks for the info! I'll check that link promptly.

Ah, having indoor heat would indeed make a difference. Our tank is in an uninsulated garage, with the outlet pipes running through an uninsulated crawl space. The pipes themselves are probably not insulated either.

See, we bought this house recently from a woman who was the original owner. She she was very tight on her money, but that meant that the house underwent almost zero changes since it was built in the early 1950s, including any type of insulation. We were the first to install cable TV, a dishwasher, and even a garbage disposal in this house! The hot water tank is probably only the second in the house's history...like I said, it is vintage 1976. :)

[Bruce McAuley]

42. Yup, insulation is important for any water heater...

Insulate the pipes coming in with those foam tubes all along their length, and the room where the water heater resides, it doesn't have to be a big room, the instant water heaters are fairly small compared to the tanks but you do have to vent them outside via insulated 4 inch exhaust pipe. Also the hot water pipes coming to your sink, shower, and washing machine area need to be insulated too to save the heat for the faucet end.
I'd never buy another water tank type heater. Our cost is only about $10 to $12 a month for all the hot water we need, and your natural gas is likely cheaper than the propane we use.
These units are guaranteed, and do seem to get the job done, but check out the big box hardware stores too for comparison.
Use the money you save to buy insulation!

Bruce

[Warpy]

6. A tankless water heater can cost that much

but if you have hard water, you'll probably want to have a water softening system with it. I'm afraid those mineral deposits will screw up a tankless system pretty quickly out west. It's the reason I'm not considering one.

A standard 15 gallon water heater turned all the way down is a great way to go for an energy and hot water miser. You can increase the efficiency by giving it a winter coat of insulation. Kits are available all over the place. Insulating any exposed pipes is also a great idea to boost efficiency.

This is what I've used for 11 years and I've never run out of hot water.

[Wednesdays]

24. Is that 15 gallon tank gas or electric?

It seems tough finding a gas tank that's less than 30 gallons. Don't know why that is.

And yeah, I've gotten into the habit of turning the temperature all the way down during periods of low use--particularly at night. Although my wife gets annoyed if she needs to shower and I've forgotten to turn the thermostat back up, LOL.

[Warpy]

30. I've had both gas and electric

and I've turned them both to the lowest setting and been a miser, so I haven't noticed that big a difference. The gas is cheaper, but it's city gas. You might want to consider an electric tank if you have propane delivered, as propane might be slightly more expensive. Gas is more efficient, though.

I've found 120 degree water perfectly adequate for all uses.

[Wednesdays]

31. Yeah, about the water temperature

I read that water at 104-105 is hot enough for a comfortable shower. I tested it out and in fact, 104 degrees was plenty hot. And unless something like diapers is involved, that's hot enough for the washing machine, too.

The only sticking point is dish washing, where water at that temperature isn't adequate for good cleaning, let alone sanitizing. For that, I might get a "point-of-use" water heater at a later date.

[dweller]

8. for about $20

i installed a timer on my 40gal.
Comes on at 6am-10am, off again until 6pm-10pm, then off again.

wrapped it with a water heater blanket (about $15, i think). Never had a problem with the timer or w/ hot water needs. There is an override button to turn it on/off at anytime outside of the timer settings.

available at Lowes Home Improvement, or HD.

dp

[LiberalEsto]

9. Can you put a timer

on a gas water heater?

[happyslug]

15. Depends on the Model, some come with it already.

The purpose of such timing units is to permit the temperature of the Hot water to go down when they is low expectation of use (When one is Sleeping OR at work for example). They must be set to warm up at least one hour BEFORE you expect to use the Hot Water. Easy to do, a simple override of any order on the heater unit to start to heat (or burn in the case of Natural Gas) EXCEPT when the hot water is needed.

[dweller]

25. thanks for answering that, i didn't know

and couldn't get time to look for a gas unit.

one advantage of the blanket, it keeps temps up for a while before the timer kicks back on. I don't think we've waited over 15-20 minutes at anytime for hot water, scheduled or overrided.

dp

[LiberalEsto]

29. Sounds wonderful

Thanks for the info.
Mine is an old model, way past its expected lifetime. I'm trying to figure out what we can afford to do when it comes time to replace. Seems getting an EnergyStar model with a timer might be the least expensive way to go.

[VLC]

12. Check for rebates from the govt. for getting a tankless

That could affect your decision.

[madokie]

13. and you can buy a 40 gallon cheaper than a 30 gal one

I kid you not. Locke's Supply tell me its because they sell more 40 gallon ones and if I wanted a 30 gallon it would have to be special ordered. how's that for apples

[happyslug]

14. Thought about Solar?

Solar is a little bit high, but has the advantage of lower cost of use. Basically you have a Solar Water heater on your roof. Cold water goes thought the Water heater where it is heated by the sun (Sunlight changes from ultra-violent to infrared as it passes through Glass. making it even hotter inside the Solar water heater). Once heated the water goes into your Hot Water tank till used.

Upside: Lowest cost of heating water (Zero cost).

Downside:
1. Must have a roof that can take the weight of the Solar heater
2. Must have back up system on Cold days where the sun is not sufficient to heat the water.
3. Some sort of gouge on the hot water tank to make sure the hot water coming out is not excessive during the summer (Best done by a automatic temperature gage that mixes in cold water to bring down the hot water temperature when in use.
4. Lost of heat during the Night, so you may have colder water in the Morning when most people want it.

Yes, the downside is longer then the upside list, but given the cost of Natural Gas and electricity the downside does not really equal the upside in warmer climates. Even in Winter on days where the temperature in above freezing you can run a direct system (In areas of the Country with regular temperatures below Freezing in winter and two step system is preferred. In the two step system a non-freezing glyceride is run through the Solar panel and then run into the water tank. The sun heats up the glyceride in the Solar heater part, and then that the glyceride is used to heat the water in the Hot water tank. Thus the water is NEVER exposed to Freezing Temperatures.

Notice the above requires some major construction, but is an option to look at.

[Wednesdays]

19. Can all that be done for less than 800 dollars total?

:shrug:

[happyslug]

26. I doubt it. but you should look into it.

Some references to look at (These are business in the business of selling Solar, but they are a good starting point):

http://www.solarroofs.com/
http://www.solardirect.com/swh/swh.htm
http://www.gaiam.com/realgoods/
http://www.apricus.com/index.htm

They are others, I found these about a year ago and bookmarked them for my own research.

[skids]

38. No but what you may be able to do...

...is save enough out of the budget to put in all the cutoff valves and stuff you would need for solar, so if you ever have money to do solar, you don't need to have the plumber come back again.

Also be sure if you have a tank to get a mixer valve, even if they assure you that the tank is "adjustable" -- you have to keep that tank hot to avoid the possibility of an infection with legionella, so you keep it hot and then mix it down. Some states even require it by law.

[NMDemDist2]

35. we had tankless in PHX and loved it! we had to add some electrical

service for it (like adding a 220 service for a stove or dryer)

it would be cheaper (and more efficient) if you have natural gas service

also it helps if you have fairly soft water......

but I bet it would be darned close to your budget even if you need to add something to get it hooked up

we got ours through Home Depot and it saved a ton of power right away compared to keeping 50 gal of water hot 24/7 with electric

edit: typo

[phantom power]

37. I would think twice about gas. It's going away along with the oil.

[Trillo]

36. Tankless gas-powered

requires a larger diameter flue vent. It all adds up to a higher parts and installation cost.

I installed my own a few years ago, and while the unit works OK, I'm not certain I would make the same decision a second time knowing what I know now. It's awesome for supplying a flow of water to one outlet at a time, but if another demand is placed on it at the same time, it simply doesn't flow enough hot water to either faucet. Another 'single use' problem is for the "warm" setting on the clothes washer: the flow of cold water needs to be restricted, otherwise the water is too cool. Consequently, filling the machine takes a bit longer, and because of how I do my own laundry (put the powdered soap in after it is filled and agitating) it irritates me, but in the bigger scheme of things isn't that big of a deal.

[NNadir]

41. It appears that no one is recommending a solar hot water heater.

I wonder why that is.

If you were to install a solar water heater, you could get thousands of threads around the world devoted to your decision.

[Trillo]

43. Probably poor engineering,

and if it wasn't dumb engineers, then perhaps it was dumb CEOs overriding the engineers decisions, perhaps for financial reasons.

What I found with our previous solar water system, which BTW was replaced with the on-demand tankless system, was that it required an electric pump to pump the water into the solar collector and back from the solar collector to the hot-water storage tank. That's fine. What wasn't fine was the alkalinity of our water (about 8.1-8.2) resulted in the electric pump requiring replacement every year to year and a half. That's also fine. What wasn't fine was that this pump, at the time, cost near $200, every time it needed replacement. It worked out to about $10 per month, plus installation and replacement costs (which I substituted with my own labor).

IF the engineers could have placed the storage tank ABOVE the solar collector, and used convection (heat rises) to both pull cold water from the bottom of the tank, and push hot(ter) water into the tank, then we would likely have kept that system. Unfortunately, we had no way to move the hot water storage tank to a location above the collector, at least no cost effective method. We would have needed to install a second story on the home to do so.

Our water heating bill (the solar system also had natural gas assist) went down slightly after installation of the tankless system. The old solar tank itself was corroded and its internals dissolved, so we believe that a new solar tank would have decreased this billed amount on the solar system with gas assist, however, the specialized tank's cost was far, far in excess of the cost of a typical water heater. We didn't own the system when it was new, so had no way to judge what kind of savings we would have with a new, expensive tank and new pump every 1.5 years.

In all, having a solar system was more costly than its tankless replacement. We kept the collectors (they're still on the roof), just in case we ever want to change back to solar, but they weren't evacuated-tube type collectors, so they're probably junk anyway.

[NNadir]

45. pH 8.1?

Wow. That's almost enough to make lutefisk.

Solar hot water is free. That's why every water heater in North America is a solar water heater.

You are merely imagining you spent money, probably because you've been drinking caustic water.

[Trillo]

46. In all fairness,

since the electric motor and (water) impeller were not separately replaceable, I do not remember checking whether the pump kept failing because the electric motor failed, or the impeller stuck due to deposits. I do remember the pump wasn't a discount store item, only a few boutique 'solar' places had them, and you know, they have rather expensive bills to pay and their own debt to service, given their smallish market, which obviously also commands a profit premium due to the energy "savings" of their products.

8.1 is, I understand, a common water district pH, as it tends to line pipes with lime or calcium, instead of corroding them (if it's on the acid side), or so I've read. Over time, with a standard water heater, if one doesn't annually drain them, there can be quite a white sediment formed at the bottom drain, at least around here (my experience of SoCal).

The full chemistry of the water, its various impurities, and how the deposits form with heating and cooling cycles is a bit beyond me, theoretically. But yes, you're probably right about that overactive imagination issue.

[NNadir]

50. Your knowledge of chemistry is somewhat better than you think it is.

The pH scale is logarithmic, meaning pH 8 has 10 times as many hydroxide ions as water that is pH 7. Even so, solutions can and do vary considerably in pH. Soda pop can be quite acidic, around pH 4 and some soap solutions can be much close to pH 9.

As it happens, carbon dioxide - and there's a lot of that - is acidic, and tends to neutralize basic water that is exposed to air. When carbon dioxide is absorbed into a basic solution it makes the bicarbonate ion, which is that active ingredient in baking soda.

This ion is called amphoteric, it can act either as a base or as an acid depending on circumstances. amphoteric substances make buffers - solutions that tend to be stable pH either in the presence of acid and in base. The bicarbonate buffer is one of the most important in living systems and it accounts for the pH of blood for instance. It tends to stabilize around pH 7. Bicarbonate solutions always contain small amounts of carbonate ion and small amounts of carbonic acid.

Even very small amounts of carbonate can cause calcium to precipitate forming a gritty white scale in places with "hard" water. This is pronounced in Southern California, where water supplies are shipped across the salty deserts. The water that LA steals from the Owens valley must travel in open aqueducts through dust storms whipped up by the Santa Anna winds.

This is probably what destroyed your pump.

It is somewhat surprising that solar hot water heaters exist that do not use convective heat, especially since people have been talking about this stuff for more than 50 years.

It's kind of amazing when you think about it that they even sell natural gas and electric heaters in Southern California. It seems to me that Amory Lovins wrote in 1976 that everyone would have a molten salt heat storage system by now, one next to every hydrogen hypercar driveway.

[happyslug]

49. As a general rule, Solar water heatings work best if design as part of the home

Retrofitting them can be costly. First is to make sure the roof is angled in the direction where the sun shine most of the day. Second the roof must be strong enough to take the weight of the water ANd the panel. If probably designed no pumps will be needed, water flows to its own level and unless the source of the water is low, the water will flow up to the panel and back into the tank. Problems can be if the water source is lower then your roof, then the water must be pumped up to that level. Most Cities have high tanks for water storage, but some may be low.

After you plan for the Solar water on the roof, you have to plan for storage of the heated water. This tank can be a conventional Hot water tank but the user must understand that the water can be hotter then needed (or colder then needed). If hotter some sort of mix with cold water is needed. This should be AFTER the water tank. Ideally some sort of gage that mixes the water to keep the temperature below 120 degrees Fahrenheit. If the water is to cold, the cold water source mix should be cut off and the water go through the secondary heating source to get the water temperature up. This can be done by a Computerized control system, controlling the temperature of the water by measuring the temperatures. Sounds complicated but is simple, two pipes into the Control unit (one cold one from the Water tank) then through a small tank-less water heater to heat the water up if that is needed.

Overall the system is doable, but at much higher costs then just installing a new tank or tank-less system. Can it work? yes, but you must understand increase cost of the whole system. I do not see if coming under $1500 dollars, thus no one is saying Solar when the original person put a limit of $800, but it is something to look at and the further south you are the better the system looks.

The big problem is most homes today are design to have a hot water heater. A tank-less system is a good retrofit for the tank-less system takes up about the same amount of room. Any other system, Solar or even a mix system with your Furnace (i.e. Hot water for your use AND to to heat the home) takes make retrofitting that is generally NOT cost effective. As I said above, probably can not do it for below $800.

When I first did research on Solar water heaters in the 1970s, they were popular in South Florida, do to the fact the area had NO NATURAL GAS SERVICE. Thus all water heaters were electric and electricity was high. You also did not have to worry about frozen pipes do to the temperatures. Most Solar Water Heaters were home made and cost effective. The problem was as you went north you had to worry about Water Freezing in winter AND the access to natural Gas as a heating source.

Today, Natural Gas prices are DOWN from hat they were just a few years ago. I expect that to change. As Natural gas prices go up I expect more and more people to opt for Solar Water heaters to save money. While the Capital Cost are much higher, the saving from having to use LESS heat from other sources of heat can be extensive. A solar system mixed with a Tank-less system can be a huge saving, providing you can do the above. Thus today you have sources for Solar Water Panels, something that really did not exist in the 1970s. If I was building a New home I would install enough to provide me hot water. I will also install a backup system so I have hot water at any time. Over time the system will pay for itself, but you first have to pay the much higher Capital costs.

[NNadir]

51. You mean solar energy is only for wealthy people?

Who knew?

Who knew you had to buy a whole new house to get one too?

People are always representing that it's the ideal system for poor Africans.

The per capita income of Burundi is $600 per year. I guess they couldn't afford a gas heater either.

How is your solar hot water system functioning, by the way? Any problems with it?

If I had a nickel for every time I heard people say "I expect solar systems will become popular in the future..." I could afford a new house with a new solar hot water system.

[happyslug]

53. Something costing a good bit of money does not mean it is for the Wealthy.

A good example of this is the history of Zoning. When Zoning first appeared it was to keep certain areas reserved for the Rich, for the poor were willing to pay more per square foot for Housing. Another example was when Gasoline was purpose in the 1970s, the system that was set up (but NOT Implemented) get gasoline to persons based on Automobile registrations (Whether the car was running or not) instead of Driver's licence. The reason was the fear that the poor often had Drivers license but no car, while Upper middle classes people often had more than one car per driver.

The reason for both of the above situations (and there are others) is that The rich is UNWILLING to outbid the poor when the poor is willing to outbid the rich. The same with Solar Water Panels, for example the poor may be willing to pay higher rent to a landlord that provides hot water via a Solar Water system then to a landlord that does NOT (This parallel the original Zoning law, which was do to the poor being willing to pay top dollar for a tiny apartment in an area of New York City that had Mansions, the manison owners forced through Zoning laws against Apartment Complexes, to make sure they fellow mansion owners did not tear down their mansions and built more profitable apartment buildings).

The poor may opt to pay more rent for an aprtment with Solar Hot Water then another apartment do to hwo much the poor will SAVE by having access to a Solar Water heater.

A second way to look at this is capital costs, is it better to spend $100 a month to heat water after spending $500 for a Hot water heater, or is it better to Spend $20 a month from a $3000 system? A simiiar situation occurs in Housing, is it better to b\pay $500 a month rent, knowing if something major comes up it is the landlord's problem or is it better to pay $350 a month and OWN your home, knowing that if anything goes wrong YOU HAVE TO PAY FOR THE REPAIR? It is a decsion one has to make and people have ALWAYS MADE SUCH decisions.

[bananas]

52. Everyone is recommending coal and natural gas hot water heaters

The recommendations are natural gas and electric units.
Oklahoma City generates electricity from coal and natural gas, so the electric units are actually powered by coal and natural gas.
In this case, a natural gas water heater would generate much less CO2 than an electric unit.

[Kolesar]

47. My conclusion is that "tankless" are a good idea in a region with a short heating season

Where I live, the furnace runs from late September until some time in May. That "wasted heat" from the tank is not really wasted heat. It goes into the basement and heats the house. ...

MORE:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=287x5113#5115

[hunter]

48. Tankless gas water heater + teenagers = higher gas bills.

We got a tankless water heater hoping to save energy, but also because we occasionally have a lot of guests and it's nice if everyone can take a shower, but I hadn't realized that our teens had been living in fear of the shower going cold on mom or dad... Now that they don't have that fear, our gas bill has crept up.

We have very hard water here, so much so that tank type water heaters tend to fail within 6-7 years from mineral-buildup-corrosion-hotspots, but so far this hasn't been a problem with the tankless, and I'm not sure why. Maybe it's because the mineral deposition process takes time, or the particles are knocked off as the copper expands when the burners fire up. I fully expected I'd be doing an acid flush or two by now, but so far, so good.