I say a proton is not the same as a hydrogen atom.Does anyone disagree

[DEMVET-USMC]

In my posting re: BHT: this argument has come up believe it or not. I say a proton is a positively charged particle with a formal charge of +1. And that a hydrogen atom has a nucleus consisting of a proton with an electron in a atomic or molecular orbital. How say you ? This silly argument concerns my BHT posting. Please check in with your thoughts on this question. I am well aware of the isotopes of hydrogen , please stay with the question as specified.

[fsbooks]

1. agreed

certainly related, but not the same. But is a hydrogen ion the same as a proton? I'ld think so.

[DEMVET-USMC]

6. I was specefic, of course a proton is a posively charged ion. Did I not

say that. Furthermore, because of the way in wich hydrogen atoms behave , so to speak, during the vast majority of organic reactions it is an extremely important distinction between a proton and hydrogen atom, or ion both +1 or -1. ...Oscar

[iconoclastic cat]

2. A proton is one of the subparticles of the ion.

[DEMVET-USMC]

8. Yes a proton is an ion. What else you say is unclear. Are you thinking of

hydronium ions? ...Oscar

[iconoclastic cat]

10. I was wrong! That was a guess.

Sorry!

[olddem43]

3. I think the proton is the same as the Hydogen nucleus

[DEMVET-USMC]

9. That is what I said.

Oscar

[Leprechan29]

4. As far as nuclear reactions are concerned

The ions are the same. The only difference would be an electron around it. Strip the electron and they are the same.

That seems to be agreed upon here

[Bill McBlueState]

5. agreed

In, say, the study of stellar interiors, "proton" and "hydrogen" are used synonymously. But "hydrogen" is understood to be shorthand for "positively charged hydrogen ion" in that case.

[DEMVET-USMC]

12. Well I say it is a pollution of the linguistics of chemistry and physics

to use the term proton and hydrogen atom or hydrogen as the same as they are two distinctly different entities. ...Oscar

[DEMVET-USMC]

11. Yes we agree on that, but lets be clear, a hydrogen atom stripped of its

electron is a proton. A proton is arguably the most reactive ion along with an electron not connected to the nucleus of an atom. These sorts of reactions take place in fractions of a nonasecond

[DEMVET-USMC]

15. A hydrogen atom by definition is not stripped of its electron and has it

otherwise it would be a proton and not a hydrogen atom. What about that do you not understand. ...Oscar

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DEMVET-USMC]

13. I posted that BHT site and you can kiss........

Oscar

[Bdog]

14. It depends on the context.

In chemistry, a proton is considered a hydrogen ion. In physics, a proton can be considered a subatomic particle.

I think you will be hard pressed to find hydrogen atoms by them selfs with one electron and one proton.

For what ever reason, atoms like to have a certain number of electrons in their orbits irregardless of the charge imbalance this may cause for the individual atoms. What follows after that is called chemistry.

Under normal earthly circumstances, you will find hydrogen as a molecule H2 or as a ion...H+

[DEMVET-USMC]

18. Wrong. H2 is just that ,and an ion as you said. The "NORMAL" form of a

of a molecule H2 .....H+ is an an ion is totally false. BECAUSE THE NORMAL FORM OF H2 HAS TO BE NONIONIC. Small ions such as H2+ are extremely reactive , and do just that ,react eventually forming stable molecules depending on the environment they exist in. ...Oscar

[Bdog]

21. If you say so...

It is a free country and you can believe what ever you want.

[DrWeird]

19. Actually, in chemistry...

at least organic chemistry, a proton is referring to the superfluous H's that act as filler in organic molecules, pretty much because of proton NMR spectroscopy.

The term hydrogen itself refers only to H2, there are free protons H+, hydride ions H-, I assume you're aware of H3+ because you said "earthly", there is the hydrogen atom itself which you never ever see in organic chemistry, and there are the H's in organic molecules, which can be called "the hydrogens" or, more commonly, "protons".

[DEMVET-USMC]

27. Wrong, I specifaclly stated a hydrogen atom is not a proton. What is hard

to understand about that is beyond my comprehension . ...Oscar

[Bdog]

28. By normal earthly circumstances

one atmosphere and room temperature

I'm an mechanical engineer not a chemist...if you can provide a link for H- and H3+ and where they occur in the natural environment that would be nice.

[DrWeird]

45. Sorry, no links.

Hydride ions, H-, are quite common in organic chemistry. You usually see them in reducing reagents, like LiAlH4, or NaBH4. They're most commonly used to reduce carbonyl compounds, but you see hydrides in lots of places.

Like biochemistry. For reductive biosynthesis you use NADH and NADPH. If you took any biochemistry in high school or college these should be familiar, as they are part of the citric acid cycle, electron transport chain, etc.

H3+ is out of this world. It was first discovered by astronomers, hence the pun "earthly". It's a rather odd little species. Three atoms but only two electrons. It's actually a three centered bond.

[DEMVET-USMC]

48. Thank you for that informative reply DrWeird.

I seem to recall Linus Pauling discussing this in his book titled: GENERAL CHEMISTRY, I know he discusses H2+ and remember him stating that this is the simplest molecule possible. It has 2 protons with 1 electron revolving around both protons and some times around and between both protons. He calls it the " hydrogen molecule ion ". It is worth mentioning that Linus Pauling won the Nobel Prize in Chemistry for his work on the nature of chemical bonds. I have the book here now, and am paraphrasing and quoting from it. The very beginning of chapter 6. THE CHEMICAL BOND. ...Oscar

[DEMVET-USMC]

38. H3 is a form of what can be called a hydronium ion,though I do not recall

making any reference to "earthy" ever. Whatever, a proton is a proton and a hydrogen atom is just that. It is an important distinction, and that was the purpose of the original post. A proton is a particle with a formal charge of +1. A hydrogen atom is a proton +1 with an electron which has a formal charge of -1. That alone is a very significant difference. A hydrogen atom has a net electromagnetic value of 0. As does an H2 molecule <0+0=O>. IT IS NOT AN ION AND A PROTON IS +1H ION. Oscar

[DrWeird]

44. No, Oscar, a hydronium ion is H3O+.

(sorry, I don't know how to do subscripts and superscripts here, you'll just have to imagine.)

It's the conjugate acid of water, H2O.

H3+ is something completely different.

[DEMVET-USMC]

52. You are right about that. I was answering questions as fast as I could and

slipped up on that one. I do not know if an H3 molecule exists or not. There may be some sort of resonance and or ring structure that would allow for it. I really do not know. ...Oscar

[DrWeird]

16. Well, it's really a matter of semantics.

If you're talking about those H's drawn, sometimes, on organic molecules, most organic chemists refer to those as protons. They do this for two reasons, they react most often like protons, that is they react with Bronsted/Lowry bases. The other reason is because they're characterized with proton NMR. When you analyze an organic molecule by convential means, you look at the protons (the H's).

Now they can also be called hydride ions when used that way. Or you can call them hydrogen atoms, that's OK too. Although they don't fit the absolute definition of hydrogen atoms. Since it's not a single electron, when it's bonded to another atom, the proton has two electrons in its valence shell, not one.

But like I said, that's just semantics. It's just three different ways of saying the same thing.

So I've got a question, why are you starting a new thread arguing semantics when you haven't answered my challenge in the other thread?

[DEMVET-USMC]

20. Oh really, well if what you say is true, then most chemists do not know

the difference between a particle and an atom. ...Oscar

[DrWeird]

22. So what you're saying is that atoms aren't particles?

Is that what you're claiming?

[DEMVET-USMC]

31. Yes,they are composed of particles,the nucleons and their electrons

Hydrogen is unique, in that it only has one proton as its nucleus. Nevertheless, a proton is a particle, and by itself it is not an atom. ...Oscar

[Bdog]

34. Listen...

I'm a mechanical engineer not a chemist. However, I have taken required courses and labs in chemistry.

There are ionic bonds...an atom has given up a number of electrons to another atom...and the two resulting ions are attracted to each other.

And there are covalent bonds...atoms share electrons and are bound together.

Often a hydrogen atom has given up its electron. When this happens there is only the nucleus left...a proton. Sometimes in chemical processes, it is only the proton (hydrogen nucleus) moving around.

[DEMVET-USMC]

35. Very often during chemical reactions hydrogens depart as protons. That

does not change the definition of what a proton is or a hydrogen atom is. It is just such an example as you gave that illustrates the need for clarity between the two. ....Oscar

[Bdog]

36. So, as you just said

hydrogen often departs as protons...so was it hydrogen or just a proton?...it didn't have an electron with it when it left so according to you it wasn't hydrogen.

[DEMVET-USMC]

39. IT IS A PROTON BECAUSE IT LEFT ITS ELECTRON and is no longer an atom

These types of reactions are momentary and the fact that it is a proton with a formal charge of +1 will dictate what type of reaction will occur. ...Oscar

[Bdog]

42. Can you tell me where

hydrogen exists has one proton and one electron...and nothing more

[DEMVET-USMC]

55. Any star and on earth when a so called hydrogen torch is being used in

a portion of that flame hydrogen atoms exist as individual H-1 atoms. Hydrogen atoms can be created in a laboratory equipped to do so. The H-2 molecules split into individual atoms at a high enough temperature. This must be done in the absence of air or it will ignite. I suppose you could mix in a little of one of the Noble gasses if you wanted to and see what sort of reactions might occur as an experiment. ...Oscar

[snowFLAKE]

43. Yay!! Happy happy joy joy

I learned something today. The next time I'm dining, I intend to make a bet with somebody. The bet will be "This common ordinary table salt contains no sodium atoms."

And then, if I get any Flak, I can just refer any doubters to this thread, where Oscar has conclusively proven that once a (former) atom has lost an electron (as sodium in salt has), it is no longer an atom!

Excellent . . .

[DEMVET-USMC]

49. Geez you guys enjoy giving me a hard time. I was specifically speaking of

hydrogen. But, since you brought it up, the metal sodium combines with the halogen chlorine with what is called an ionic bond. The sodium atoms give up the one electron in sodium`s outer shell only,those electrons in the 2 remaining inner shells are still there. The chlorine atoms gain 1 electron each from the sodium atoms completing their octet of electrons. The sodium atoms now have a formal electrical charge of +1 and is now a sodium ion. The chlorine atoms have gained an electron and now have an electrical charge of -1. Because ions with opposite electrical charges are attracted to each other an ionic bond is formed. Some bonds have properties of both an ionic and covalent nature. That`s for another day. ...Oscar

[DEMVET-USMC]

53. Because hydrogen has 1 proton as it`s nucleus when that electron is

removed it is a proton , which is a particle and not an atom. The same does not hold true for sodium. When an electron is removed from a sodium atom it becomes an ion but not a particle. Please remember there are 2 electron shells remaining the first or K shell has 2 electrons in it and the second or L shell has 8 electrons. What was the third or M shell is now empty of electrons. The orbitals are there and are a force or property of what is now an ion. ...Oscar

[DrWeird]

56. Oscar, do you own a dictionary?

Ions, atoms, and little specks of dust are all considered particles.

And the atomic orbitals are s,p,d and f, in that order. Perhaps you are confusing them with the quantum numbers: l, m, and n?

[DEMVET-USMC]

61. You claim to know so much about chemistry, and say " ions,atoms,and

specks of dust are all considered particles. Now what kind of a smarmy statement is that? In chemistry, the context of this discussion, a particle has a very different meaning than a speck of dust or an atom for that matter. The particles being discussed are protons and electrons and if you want to throw deuterium and tritium into the mix, neutrons as well. So what is your point other than to be a smartass. An atom is not a particle regardless. An atom by definition has an equal number of protons and electrons. If it did not, it would be an ion. ...Oscar

[DrWeird]

67. No, Oscar, chemists consider atoms, ions, and molecules...

as particles. Especially mass spectrometrists, even big ass proteins are particles.

What apparently you want to say is "subatomic particles", and the distinction is important.

So now are you stating that by definition an atom has to have an equal number of protons and electrons? Would you like to retract that? Because each of those protons in your BHT molecule have two electrons, per hydrogen, i.e. proton.

[DEMVET-USMC]

50. Atoms are not particles,they are made up of particles.

...Oscar

[NNadir]

17. I say the zeroth element is a neutron.

So what?

[DEMVET-USMC]

23. As always , you have nothing to say as to the subject being discussed.

Am I supposed to be impressed by some supposed new particle of wich there are about 110. ...Oscar

[NNadir]

32. Well Oscar, frankly I think some of things being discussed are beyond

comment.

I like your threads though; your threads are fun.

Now how is that you count neutrons as being "some new particle of wich (sic) there are about 110." Are you now going to tell us that there are 110 neutrons in the universe, or will your next nobel come from describing 110 different kinds of neutrons?

What is a neutron Oscar? Is a proton with a neutron (a deuteron) still a hydrogen atom? I'd love to hear your informed opinion on this matter.

I'll bet this thread goes for hundreds of posts.

:-)

[DEMVET-USMC]

37. As far as I know: a neutron is a proton that has in some way not fully

understood at this time fused with an electron. There are different theories being kicked around at this time as to the exact nature of Nucleons including of course neutrons.L.Pauling does discuss the radioactive decay of a number of different elements. One thing they have in common is how when an Alpha particle which can be described as the nucleus of a helium atom is emitted the atom emitting the Alpha particle loses 2 protons and moves 2 places to the left on the periodic table. Also there is the emission of a so called beta particle < an electron > is emitted from the atom that is decomposing and moves to the right one place on the periodic table. So, evidently what was a neutron has given up an electron and become a proton moving that atom to the right one position on the periodic table. This is what I believe you asked about. Anyway, this information was read by me and paraphrased from: GENERAL CHEMISTRY by Linus Pauling: 1998 edition. ...Oscar

[NNadir]

64. No Oscar, you are wrong. A neutron is not a proton + an electron.

The confinement of an electron in the volume of a neutron would lead to incredible uncertainty in the energy and mass of the electron, owing to the Heisenberg relationship. This would mean that beta particles would be emitted over a huge spectrum of energy, whereas they are usually emitted at consistent measurable energies.

For instance, Strontium-90, a common and useful fission product obtained from nuclear reactors, does not emit Beta particles over a range of energies; it emits all of them at 546 thousand electron volts.

http://atom.kaeri.re.kr/ton/nuc6.html

It is true that nuclei emit beta particles which are energetic electrons and in that process the nucleus ends up with one more proton, but this is governed by an electroweak interaction that is considerably different than the view that a proton + an electron = a neutron. However the mistake you make is one that is quite natural if one thinks about the process of Beta decay. I am very glad that you have taken the time to think about the matter, and to read a chemistry text on the subject. If you read more about the subject, you will discover what I suggest.

[DEMVET-USMC]

41. I SAID PARTICLES: not neutrons .And deuterium and tritium are isotopes

of hydroden and are hydrogen. H=1P+1E D=1P+1N+1E T=1P+2N+1E . ...Goodnight, ...Oscar

[DrWeird]

24. You're really taking this personally, aren't you?

I only pointed this out because you were calling the t-butyl protons in BHT "tertiary hydrogens".

This is bad for two reasons, the hydrogens aren't "tertiary" but that's alright, since I understood what you meant, and two, a third person could think you meant the methyl attached to the ring (you know what a methyl group is, right?"

Anywho, you seem unable to grasp that in organic chemistry "protons" and "hydrogens" are synonymous, so how about from now on were refer to those protons you were talking about as "t-butyl hydrogens."

Does that suit you?

OK, now how about you go and answer my challenge.

Or are you now willing to admit you were wrong?

[DEMVET-USMC]

30. You are wrong. That is what this whole thread is about. If you do not know

the difference between a proton and a hydrogen atom, what can I say ?...Oscar

[DEMVET-USMC]

40. A methyl group is a CH3 group. I will count to ten for you in the methane

series .This is a count of carbon atoms with its hydrogens C=N H=Nx2+2: METHANE,ETHANE,PROPANE,BUTANE,PENTANE,HEXANE,HEPTANE,OCTANE,NONANE,DECANE

[DrWeird]

46. Gee, thanks Oscar.

But I covered IUPAC nomenclature in my first organic chemistry class.

But in case you hadn't noticed, BHT has seven methyl groups, six of which are chemically equivalent.

What this has to do with simple hydrocarbons, I have no idea.

[DEMVET-USMC]

54. You ask me so many off the wall questions I guess I was trying WEIRD

HUMOR THERAPY ON YOU. ...Oscar

[treepig]

68. dear oscar (in the spirit of dear abby):

ok, since you're a nomenclature genius with expertise in hexane perhaps you help can help solve a mystery for me.

i very badly wish to buy some hexane but i'm confused because a 4-L bottle of something called "n-Hexane" actually costs more than a 4-L bottle of something called "Hexanes"

now the second option seems like a win-win situation. not only does it cost less, but there's an "s" on the end of the word so i assume you get more than one molecule of hexane, unlike the first bottle where it appears you only get a single molecule of hexane in the whole bottle.

i would be most grateful if you could point out anything obvious that's i'm missing here that would be helpful in my hexane-purchasing endeavors. i would be especially interested if you could work in some words of wisdom from linus pauling in your response - particularly if it's from his pre-vitamin C days.

[DEMVET-USMC]

25. Good night, the usual nonsense regarding an extremely simple principle

Oscar

[DrWeird]

26. Oscar, are you really a marine?

No disrespect, it's not that I don't believe you. It's just that I've never seen a marine run from a challenge before.

[DEMVET-USMC]

29. I am a former or exmarine. I do not run from physical fights, I am simply

tired of arguing the absurd. A proton is not a hydrogen atom and everyone should know it. A proton is by definition a positively charged nucleon, and in regards to the most common form of hydrogen, it is its nucleous with that all important electron, that makes it a hydrogen atom....Oscar

[DEMVET-USMC]

33. I never ran from fights before ,during ,or after my service as a Marine

I ABSOLUTELY DO NOT GIVE A SHIT . I get in fights all the time and sometimes lose. So what. ...Oscar

[DrWeird]

47. Then why are you running from the argument?

It seems like conduct unbefitting, to me anyways.

[DEMVET-USMC]

51. Well, I get tired after a while and do have other things to do in my life.

...Oscar

[DrWeird]

57. But you've started two more threads...

and made numerous posts.

Answer the question or we will have to assume you are incapable of doing so.

[DEMVET-USMC]

58. What question are you referring to? I went over them and answered all

of them as far as I can tell. ...Oscar

[DrWeird]

59. BHT thread, post #115. nt

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DrWeird]

69. I'm sorry, Oscar, was that your answer?

Please repeat the answer, only this time leave out anything disruptive. I sure am anxious to hear your answer, you should be able to give a mechanism without any personal attacks.

[DEMVET-USMC]

62. If, as many have stated"there is no difference between a hydrogen atom

and a proton", what holds a hydrogen molecule < H2 > together. Two protons , with a like charge of +1 would by the laws of physics repel each other. I am aware of the hydrogen molecule ion that does exist and is the simplest possible molecule, but it does have that one electron holding the two protons together so do not go off on some tangent about that. Two protons would repel each other and you all know it. CASE CLOSED ...Oscar

[DrWeird]

66. Whoever stated that?

Sure there's a difference.

I'm just saying that when you've got a covalent bond, either hydrogen or proton will work.

Oscar, how many electrons does a hydrogen atom have?

One, right?

So when it's in a covalent bond, how many electrons does it have then?

[Catholic Sensation]

63. how did this discussion get two deleted posts?

[DrWeird]

65. I guess somebody can dish it out better than they can take it.

Disclaimer: neither post was mine.