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CHIMO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 08:04 PM
Original message
World Bank head calls for debate on new gold standard
The head of the World Bank has reignited the debate over the future of the global monetary system by urging world leaders to consider reintroducing a gold standard to guide currency movements.

Robert Zoellick, president of the World Bank, said today that the world's largest economies should build a more co-operative monetary system. This would increase investor confidence and stimulate future economic growth, he argued.

"This new system is likely to need to involve the dollar, the euro, the yen, the pound and a renminbi that moves towards internationalisation," said Zoellick in an article published in the Financial Times. "The system should also consider employing gold as an international reference point of market expectations about inflation, deflation and future currency values."

Zoellick's comments came just three days before world leaders gather in Korea for the G20 summit, where the US Federal Reserve's decision to embark on a fresh $600bn (£370m) fiscal stimulus is expected to be widely criticised.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/nov/08/world-bank-new-gold-standard
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54anickel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 08:21 PM
Response to Original message
1. Such a barbaric relic....
:evilgrin: The Bretton Woods Institutions, that is...
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
2. Idiotic.
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DoctorK Donating Member (124 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. paper money is idiotic
"An almost hysterical antagonism toward the gold standard is one issue which unites statists of all persuasions. They seem to sense-perhaps more clearly and subtly than many consistent defenders of laissez-faire -- that gold and economic freedom are inseparable, that the gold standard is an instrument of laissez-faire and that each implies and requires the other.

In order to understand the source of their antagonism, it is necessary first to understand the specific role of gold in a free society.

Money is the common denominator of all economic transactions. It is that commodity which serves as a medium of exchange, is universally acceptable to all participants in an exchange economy as payment for their goods or services, and can, therefore, be used as a standard of market value and as a store of value, i.e., as a means of saving.

The existence of such a commodity is a precondition of a division of labor economy. If men did not have some commodity of objective value which was generally acceptable as money, they would have to resort to primitive barter or be forced to live on self-sufficient farms and forgo the inestimable advantages of specialization. If men had no means to store value, i.e., to save, neither long-range planning nor exchange would be possible.

What medium of exchange will be acceptable to all participants in an economy is not determined arbitrarily. First, the medium of exchange should be durable. In a primitive society of meager wealth, wheat might be sufficiently durable to serve as a medium, since all exchanges would occur only during and immediately after the harvest, leaving no value-surplus to store. But where store-of-value considerations are important, as they are in richer, more civilized societies, the medium of exchange must be a durable commodity, usually a metal. A metal is generally chosen because it is homogeneous and divisible: every unit is the same as every other and it can be blended or formed in any quantity. Precious jewels, for example, are neither homogeneous nor divisible. More important, the commodity chosen as a medium must be a luxury. Human desires for luxuries are unlimited and, therefore, luxury goods are always in demand and will always be acceptable. Wheat is a luxury in underfed civilizations, but not in a prosperous society. Cigarettes ordinarily would not serve as money, but they did in post-World War II Europe where they were considered a luxury. The term "luxury good" implies scarcity and high unit value. Having a high unit value, such a good is easily portable; for instance, an ounce of gold is worth a half-ton of pig iron.

In the early stages of a developing money economy, several media of exchange might be used, since a wide variety of commodities would fulfill the foregoing conditions. However, one of the commodities will gradually displace all others, by being more widely acceptable. Preferences on what to hold as a store of value, will shift to the most widely acceptable commodity, which, in turn, will make it still more acceptable. The shift is progressive until that commodity becomes the sole medium of exchange. The use of a single medium is highly advantageous for the same reasons that a money economy is superior to a barter economy: it makes exchanges possible on an incalculably wider scale.

Whether the single medium is gold, silver, seashells, cattle, or tobacco is optional, depending on the context and development of a given economy. In fact, all have been employed, at various times, as media of exchange. Even in the present century, two major commodities, gold and silver, have been used as international media of exchange, with gold becoming the predominant one. Gold, having both artistic and functional uses and being relatively scarce, has significant advantages over all other media of exchange. Since the beginning of World War I, it has been virtually the sole international standard of exchange. If all goods and services were to be paid for in gold, large payments would be difficult to execute and this would tend to limit the extent of a society's divisions of labor and specialization. Thus a logical extension of the creation of a medium of exchange is the development of a banking system and credit instruments (bank notes and deposits) which act as a substitute for, but are convertible into, gold.

A free banking system based on gold is able to extend credit and thus to create bank notes (currency) and deposits, according to the production requirements of the economy. Individual owners of gold are induced, by payments of interest, to deposit their gold in a bank (against which they can draw checks). But since it is rarely the case that all depositors want to withdraw all their gold at the same time, the banker need keep only a fraction of his total deposits in gold as reserves. This enables the banker to loan out more than the amount of his gold deposits (which means that he holds claims to gold rather than gold as security of his deposits). But the amount of loans which he can afford to make is not arbitrary: he has to gauge it in relation to his reserves and to the status of his investments.

When banks loan money to finance productive and profitable endeavors, the loans are paid off rapidly and bank credit continues to be generally available. But when the business ventures financed by bank credit are less profitable and slow to pay off, bankers soon find that their loans outstanding are excessive relative to their gold reserves, and they begin to curtail new lending, usually by charging higher interest rates. This tends to restrict the financing of new ventures and requires the existing borrowers to improve their profitability before they can obtain credit for further expansion. Thus, under the gold standard, a free banking system stands as the protector of an economy's stability and balanced growth.

When gold is accepted as the medium of exchange by most or all nations, an unhampered free international gold standard serves to foster a world-wide division of labor and the broadest international trade. Even though the units of exchange (the dollar, the pound, the franc, etc.) differ from country to country, when all are defined in terms of gold the economies of the different countries act as one -- so long as there are no restraints on trade or on the movement of capital. Credit, interest rates, and prices tend to follow similar patterns in all countries. For example, if banks in one country extend credit too liberally, interest rates in that country will tend to fall, inducing depositors to shift their gold to higher-interest paying banks in other countries. This will immediately cause a shortage of bank reserves in the "easy money" country, inducing tighter credit standards and a return to competitively higher interest rates again.

A fully free banking system and fully consistent gold standard have not as yet been achieved. But prior to World War I, the banking system in the United States (and in most of the world) was based on gold and even though governments intervened occasionally, banking was more free than controlled. Periodically, as a result of overly rapid credit expansion, banks became loaned up to the limit of their gold reserves, interest rates rose sharply, new credit was cut off, and the economy went into a sharp, but short-lived recession. (Compared with the depressions of 1920 and 1932, the pre-World War I business declines were mild indeed.) It was limited gold reserves that stopped the unbalanced expansions of business activity, before they could develop into the post-World War I type of disaster. The readjustment periods were short and the economies quickly reestablished a sound basis to resume expansion.

But the process of cure was misdiagnosed as the disease: if shortage of bank reserves was causing a business decline-argued economic interventionists -- why not find a way of supplying increased reserves to the banks so they never need be short! If banks can continue to loan money indefinitely -- it was claimed -- there need never be any slumps in business. And so the Federal Reserve System was organized in 1913. It consisted of twelve regional Federal Reserve banks nominally owned by private bankers, but in fact government sponsored, controlled, and supported. Credit extended by these banks is in practice (though not legally) backed by the taxing power of the federal government. Technically, we remained on the gold standard; individuals were still free to own gold, and gold continued to be used as bank reserves. But now, in addition to gold, credit extended by the Federal Reserve banks ("paper reserves") could serve as legal tender to pay depositors.

When business in the United States underwent a mild contraction in 1927, the Federal Reserve created more paper reserves in the hope of forestalling any possible bank reserve shortage. More disastrous, however, was the Federal Reserve's attempt to assist Great Britain who had been losing gold to us because the Bank of England refused to allow interest rates to rise when market forces dictated (it was politically unpalatable). The reasoning of the authorities involved was as follows: if the Federal Reserve pumped excessive paper reserves into American banks, interest rates in the United States would fall to a level comparable with those in Great Britain; this would act to stop Britain's gold loss and avoid the political embarrassment of having to raise interest rates.

The "Fed" succeeded; it stopped the gold loss, but it nearly destroyed the economies of the world in the process. The excess credit which the Fed pumped into the economy spilled over into the stock market -- triggering a fantastic speculative boom. Belatedly, Federal Reserve officials attempted to sop up the excess reserves and finally succeeded in braking the boom. But it was too late: by 1929 the speculative imbalances had become so overwhelming that the attempt precipitated a sharp retrenching and a consequent demoralizing of business confidence. As a result, the American economy collapsed. Great Britain fared even worse, and rather than absorb the full consequences of her previous folly, she abandoned the gold standard completely in 1931, tearing asunder what remained of the fabric of confidence and inducing a world-wide series of bank failures. The world economies plunged into the Great Depression of the 1930's."
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. The gold standard didn't work then and won't work now.
Our fiat system functions very well. The financial crises are and were the result of political failures, not monetary failures.
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DoctorK Donating Member (124 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. the gold standard did work
it was replaced to permit two things, bankers to make unearned profits lending money they didn't have in the first place, and it made it easier for governments to spend more than the public would bear in taxes.

Fiat money is political money. You can't say the financial crises were merely political without also indicting the fractional reserve system founded on government debt as the reserve.

Paper money has a long history of busts inextricably linked to the governments ability to establish 'legal tender' laws and rob the producing/saving members of society.

Fiat money replaces the restrictions rooted in the reality of supply and demand with the greed of bankers and the whims of politicians.

The WORST financial calamities in the U.S. have been wrought by fiat/paper money. The States were restricted from emitting bills of credit or making anything but gold or silver money precisely because they had routinely engaged in the same 'beggar thy neighbor' policies of printing paper money that we're trying to pull on the world right now.
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The2ndWheel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. The economy exists within the environment
We don't live in a world where the unlimited human imagination can add a zero every time we want to, and not have to pay for it in some way, at some point. The gold standard was crap, but the fiat system is that much worse. It's that much less real then even gold, which is just as arbitrary, but at least physically existed.

The crises are and were the result of thinking that the environment exists within the economy, which is both a political and monetary failure.
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DoctorK Donating Member (124 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. gold is real
gold is part of the environment. The addition of more gold to the money supply requires work to be performed (let's see Bernanke produce $600+ billion in gold over the next year as readily as he prints dollar bills!)

Gold is inseparable from the supply and demand of the environment(marketplace), and thereby more accurately transmits the information conveyed in prices.

Fiat money is completely arbitrary, leaving consumers, producers, saver, and entrepreneurs perpetually guessing what the monetary authorities will do to the unit of account day to day.

Imagine the futility of a carpenter trying to build a house when, day to day and solely at their whim, someone could change the length of an inch. After he put the time and effort into building three walls, what are the odds that the fourth would still line up and not lay waste to his efforts?

Prices are not arbitrary, money shouldn't be either. Making it so introduces unnecessary error and miscalculation on the part of all participants in the economy.
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The2ndWheel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. The value of gold is arbitrary though
It can change from person to person. One may see it as the greatest thing ever, and to someone else it's just another rock.

I'm not sure what a human economy could be based on that isn't arbitrary or relative to time and place. Why is a cow worth two pigs? Why is gold worth anything(you can't eat it, drink it, or use it for warmth)? What does that extra zero on a screen do?
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DoctorK Donating Member (124 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. it is determined by supply and demand
that is not 'arbitrary', but responsive.

The value of ice cream changes from person to person, yet the marketplace can still assign a price at any given time.

"Why is a cow worth two pigs? Why is gold worth anything(you can't eat it, drink it, or use it for warmth)? What does that extra zero on a screen do?"

A cow is worth two pigs if and only if someone will trade a cow for two pigs. Gold has been desired by consumers as a luxury for thousands of years across all continents.

An 'extra zero on a screen' could mislead participants in an exchange. If you tell me you're willing to exchange 1 cow for 2 pigs, but in reality only have 1 pig, changing a zero on a screen cannot alter that reality.

The efforts on the part of bankers and those in government they have bought (or who are too ignorant/incurious to understand) to counterfeit value (claiming more resources at their disposal than really exist) are what foster bubbles, cause inflation, and distort our economy.
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The2ndWheel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Is a luxury really something to base an economy on?
"Gold has been desired by consumers as a luxury for thousands of years across all continents."

I'm sure it has not been desired as well. That's when the trouble starts. Because if the demand is strong enough by even one person, that has consequences for everyone else involved, no matter what they think. Although that would apply to anything.
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DoctorK Donating Member (124 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. supply and demand is what you base an economy on
A luxury good is elevated to the role of money because no one want to lug around 1 ton of pig iron to buy their groceries.

Jewels don't work well as money because they lack divisibility. Pure metals like gold, silver, and platinum don't have this problem.
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whosinpower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-11-10 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Thinking outside the box for a moment
It is my belief that an economy should be based - not on supply and demand, but on labour. It is labour that gives commodities value. Without labour - all that gold just sits in the ground. Without labour, cars, trucks, trains, and all goods never get made. And, right now, labour in china is cheaper than labour in the US - which is why manufacturing has left. Somehow, perhaps a system should be put in place that gives a universal value to labour - regardless of the nation from which it comes from.

It is American labour that gives money its value. When you buy a home, the bank loans you money - but that is just numbers - it is not real - until you have invested thousands of hours of hard work to pay it back - that is what gives those numbers value.

Going back to the Gold Standard will not fix the structural problems that multi-national corporations have exploited.

Certainly supply and demand play a role in an economy. But, right now, currencies are racing to the bottom in an effort for their labour force to be more competitive. I am suggesting something quite different. I am suggesting that a miner in Russia would be paid exactly the same as a miner in Canada. I am suggesting that a sewer in China would be paid exactly the same as a sewer in America.

Not sure how a person would implement this concept given the current system. Perhaps, not a Gold Standard - but a labour standard...as a monetary standard from which all currencies are tied to.
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DoctorK Donating Member (124 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-11-10 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. why that doesn't work
you could put 50 hours of labor into making something, but if no one wants it, it has no value, regardless of how much time you put into it. In fact, the demand that others show for it determine the price put on the item you made. If there is no demand, or very low demand, the low price helps you to realize people would prefer your labor committed to making something else.

Prices established by supply and demand are the only way to find out what people prefer and how resources and labor should be committed.

Our biggest problem with China is that the money we send them for goods is used to buy our government debt instead of buying American products - employing the wealth producing sector of the economy.

The U.S. is still the world's largest manufacturer, but the decline in employment in manufacturing is often confused with a reduction in manufacturing when in in reality it is caused mostly by an increase in automation.

My cousin works at a Briggs and Stratton plant in Missouri. He doesn't spend his 8 hour shift tooling over a lathe. He spends roughly the first two hours calibrating, repairing, and verifying the robots that do most of the work. He spends the next 6 hours doing the crossword and reading, waiting for an automated alarm to signal that a robot needs his attention (parts are coming off the line out of spec).

American workers have better wages than Russian or Chinese workers because of the higher productivity they enjoy because per person there is a much higher level of capital investment (robots, tools, training, etc.)
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Art_from_Ark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-11-10 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #10
19. Gold is not a rock, it is a metal
It has been used as a monetary medium for thousands of years.

We are not a primitive culture, we have long since passed the stage where we needed to have monetary media that could directly be "eaten, drunk or used for warmth". What good is a monetary medium that is directly consumed, or can spoil? Or requires a warehouse just to store a year's supply?
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Eddie Haskell Donating Member (817 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Gold?
Why not oil? It's the only thing backing the dollar and it's costing us a fortune to steal.
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DoctorK Donating Member (124 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. we don't steal it
we buy it (with a depreciating paper currency, so we need more of this paper currency year after year...)

Oil doesn't work as well as money for several reasons:

1 oz of gold will today buy you the same amount of goods as ~650 gallons of oil.
The equivalent of $20,000 in savings in gold would be ~14 oz, or 9333 gallons of oil.
Which do you want to carry in your pocket, store in a bank safety deposit box, or put under your mattress?

Gold is an element. Its divisibility and homogeneity (there are many grades of oil with differing values) lend it to making simple fractional amounts and recombining as desired.
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Dover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #3
14. Why not solar panels or something that would promote a healthier economic and environmental
values?
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OllieLotte Donating Member (495 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-11-10 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Kidding right?
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-11-10 08:40 PM
Response to Original message
17. FIAT = Fix It Again Tony
...in the car world. And I wonder what it means here and now?
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