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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 11:25 AM
Original message
DEAN says "I'm not your guy"

Again distancing himself from a progressive agenda, Howard Dean was quoted on healthcare reform in today's New York Times: "My plan is not reform -- if you want to totally change the healthcare system, I'm not your guy." Dean advocates incremental changes that leave insurance giants in the center of healthcare.

By contrast, Kucinich supports a commonsense plan of national health insurance for all -- a proven success in industrial democracies far less wealthy than our country. Kucinich says that only by eliminating the waste, bureaucracy and profiteering of insurance companies, can everyone be covered -- a sentiment echoed by Physicians for a National Health Program.

Incremental change over the years has left 40 million Americans uninsured and millions more underinsured -- a failed approach, says legendary public health physician and Kucinich endorser Quentin Young: "You can't leap an abyss in 2 jumps." For more on the Kucinich plan:
http://www.kucinich.us/issues/issue_universalhealth.htm
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cjbuchanan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 11:27 AM
Response to Original message
1. Do you have a link?
thanks
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-01-03 05:42 AM
Response to Reply #1
59. No, I'm sorry, I don't. It was a mailing I got yesterday, and it says
'today's' NYTimes, but did that mean yesterday's or the day before's? Or even the day's before that? I don't know.
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LuminousX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
2. Reform Fails
We've seen that too often. Efforts to reform the system ends up not doing anything. Dean's plan expands what is already in place, requiring very little legislative effort, very few places in which it can be held up by contrarian forces.

Once people get access to health care, then we can start talking reform. Once they are in the sytem, it becomes harder to kick them out.
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Pavlovs DiOgie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #2
7. What I trust in Dean's plan
is that he's actually done it! It works in Vermont.
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=policy_statement_health

See for yourself. :)
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rogerashton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #2
12. Give an example?
Reform attracts Rethuglican lies like a dead possum attracts flies. But can you give an example of an actual health care reform that has failed?

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LuminousX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. Examples
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UnapologeticLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #12
25. I'll give you three
Three Democratic presidents have tried to reform the healthcare system: Harry Truman, Jimmy Carter, and Bill Clinton. They have all failed because the Republicans and the special interests and even some Democrats in Congress have killed their initiatives. So Dean and I think a lot of the other candidates with incremental approaches are being realistic about what they can get through Congress. Even getting any of these plans through is going to be tough, because they all are bad for the drug companies and contain some employer mandates. Kucinich's plan is great but it will never, ever get through Congress.
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #2
19. "Once they are in the sytem, it becomes harder to kick them out."
What, you mean like destroying the social safety net?
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LuminousX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. essentially, yes.
Look how long and hard the GOP has worked to undo Roosevelt's and Johnson's programs.
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #22
30. I believe you should reexamine that
All it took them was getting both houses and a sympathetic President. Virtually within moments after that, it was done.

We must do it all in one go, just the way social security was created. Because, as von Clausewitz reminded us: one cannot cross a chasm in two jumps.
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LuminousX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. All They've been able to do is erode it, not dismantle it.
What works is getting voters into the system. Once voters have a benefit, taking the benefit away become difficult. Once we get a majority coverage, we can start talking about the inefficiencies of it and bringing it all under one comprehensive system.

I want people covered ASAP, not covered when we can finally get a Congress and President willing to truly address it instead of turning into a political quagmire.
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-01-03 05:49 AM
Response to Reply #32
61. That's a pretty good 'erosion', then, because
all that's left is social security. Anyone too young for that no longer has a right to live. Since nobody has a right to a job, anyone who's unemployable is totally screwed.
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ModerateMiddle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #2
52. "Once they are in the sytem, it becomes harder to kick them out."
You are unfamiliar with the concept of budget cuts?

Medicaid kicks people out all the time.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
3. Kucinich can't get single-payer through Congress...
...nobody can. Dean has said that his solution isn't perfect, but it WILL get people insured and since it's just an expansion of already-existing programs, it stands a much better chance of making it through Congress. Once THAT is accomplished, he says, we can start working for a better system.

This is ANOTHER reason I chose Dean over Kucinich. Kucinich has good ideas, I just doubt his ability to implement them. Dean is more pragmatic. He starts from a "what will work?" position and tries to maximize it rather than a "what's the ultimate dream?" position that (at least in cases like this) has very little chance of success.
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ConservativeDemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #3
9. Pragmatism vs Psychosis
I agree with everything you said.

There is something vaguely disquieting about how many people in this website pretend that conservatives have no support or political power.
Idealism is laudable. Psychosis is not.
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damnraddem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. I support single payer; but it has no chance in the near future.
Any other 'reform' is likely to end up like Clinton's. Until the country is ready to reform healthcare payment, plans will get nowhere. If Kucinich can start selling people on single payer, good! But I don't think Kucinich himself can get anywhere in the race for prez, even though I like him. Dean is a moderate, but one who speaks out for a Democratic agenda, including opposition to PNAC and imperialist wars. I think he has a much-better chance than Kucinich, is better than others who have a chance, and is infinitely better than Holy Joe. I'll vote for any Dem candidate other than Lieberman, but I hope it's Dean (unless I am pleasantly surprised by a Kucinich candidacy).
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #3
14. I agree.
Edited on Thu Jul-31-03 12:34 PM by Feanorcurufinwe
I agree. Although I think single-payer is ultimately the way we must go, it just won't pass in the current climate. That's why I like John Kerrys plan (http://vote-smart.org/speech_detail.php?speech_id=M000005280) which is carefully crafted to bring down costs, expand coverage, AND get through congress.
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JeniB Donating Member (287 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #3
99. That's exactly how I feel about Gephardts plan.
It's not pie-in-the-sky. It's very doable. I haven't read Dean's but I will. One of the things I like about Gephardt is that he knows what he can pass through Congress.
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LuminousX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
4. By the way
this isn't distancing at all. This has been his position from day one.
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cspiguy Donating Member (679 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 11:34 AM
Response to Original message
5. eliminating the waste, bureaucracy and profiteering of insurance companies
Edited on Thu Jul-31-03 11:36 AM by cspiguy
eliminating the waste, bureaucracy and profiteering of insurance companies will only lead to greater waste, bureaucracy, and profiteering by government agencies. I'll stick with Dean. Easier to hold companies feet to fire then to change institutional systems once they get badly hosed and broken like in Canada, UK, France, and Scandinavia. Let's not mention eastern europe where the idea came from. They are in "advanced stages" of reform.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 11:36 AM
Response to Original message
6. Dean "is My Guy"!
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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 11:41 AM
Response to Original message
8. I, too, would prefer a single payer system,
sanely administered. People really need to wake up in this country about our crappy health care that costs more and gives us less than other systems in other countries. I don't think it is politically unfeasable, either, just maybe unfeasable in the very short term.

But running in the middle IS taking a much different position than the Republicans these days - they've move the goal posts so far to the right that just being a sensible centrist is like being a radical from outer space. Let them rot out there on the right.

Go Dean!
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walkon Donating Member (919 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 12:06 PM
Response to Original message
11. I love Kucinich's Plan
But we live in a corrupt America and we will have to settle to go one step at a time. I believe Dean represents a step in the right direction. Clean up campaign finance, improve voting reliability and get the media to do its job. These steps must be taken before a Kucinich can get elected, IMHO.

On the PBS Watergate special one of the ending interviews said Watergate "trial" was successful because Congress did its job, the Courts did their job and the Media did its job. How likely is it that the same thing will happen today to thwart the current attempt to take over the entire government by the Executive branch?

Richard Nixon thought he was above the Law. He was wrong - and the rest of the government entities did their jobs to prove it. Bush thinks he's above the Law. How will he be proved wrong?
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rogerashton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
13. There is so much despair here!
If everyone who says "it can't pass" would get out and work her or his butt off for real, liberal democrats it would pass.

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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Where were you in 92
Where were you in 92-94? I was watching CSPAN. And I can tell you from watch the debate on the very limited reform plan then, that there is no way single-payer could get through without a significant liberal majority in Congress. I'm not saying it won't ever happen or that we shouldn't work towards it. But it is not going to happen as quickly as we'd like.
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. Exactly. Because it was a dreadful, ugly, patchwork plan
Edited on Thu Jul-31-03 01:28 PM by Mairead
Kucinich's plan is simplicity itself: expand Medicare. Medicare already works, it already has a huge track record.

The Clinton plan was this terrible hodgepodge that nobody could understand because, apart from keeping the hands of the elites in the till, it looked like something that the soviet bureaucracy might have come up with (except that the actual soviet plan was just like the Canadian or UK system: you feel sick, you call in at a doctor's office).

Kucinich's program would sell like hotcakes because the US Labor Party's 'Just Health Care' plan gets enormous support wherever it's test-marketed (see http://www.justhealthcare.org).

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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #20
48. No, that's not the reason
No, that's not the reason it didn't pass. The actual merits of the plan were barely discussed. It was totally obstructed by the Republicans. The fact is, and you just can't honestly deny it, we don't have the votes. We would need a large majority in both senate and house to get Kucinich's plan through.
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-01-03 05:45 AM
Response to Reply #48
60. The merits of the plan were barely discussed
because it was so impenetrable, not for any other reason. Nobody could discuss it! The GOP simply took advantage of that and muddied the water even further.
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dpbrown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
17. The time is right for Universal Coverage
All other industrialized nations have it.

Dennis has a way of paying for it. No other candidate comes close.

Everyone I talk to, when I tell them that Dean is for more of the same in health care, shoveling federal money to insurance companies while failing to rein in the out-of-control bloat in the Pentagon, tells me they're behind Dennis' plan.

Dennis can make this come true. Clinton almost made it happen before the DLC and the insurance companies undercut his plan.

Dennis won't let what happened to Clinton happen to him.

DK in 04!

Be a menace for Dennis!

Dan Brown
Saint Paul, Minnesota
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LuminousX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Assume Dennis has to Work with a republican majority
in at least one house. What will he sacrifice out of the plan to get it pushed through?

You can't answer that question but the GOP are firm in their effort to stop a national healthcare system. So do people have to wait yet another four years hoping for a sympathetic Congress to get health care? This is bullshit and this is what has pissed me off with the All or Nothing approach. These people who live in an idealized world aren't the ones who need medical assistance.

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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. Possibly we should elect the sympathetic Congress this time too, then?
If everyone would get some therapy and kick their 'learned helplessness' neurosis, we could have everything we want. There is nothing we cannot have if we are willing to work together.

We have enough analyses
Now I am eager to see deeds!
While you exchange your pleasantries,
Another's bold new plan succeeds!
Your talk of moods kindles no flame,
The waverer always waits and loses;
One should ever seize without distrust
The best of all in iron grip
Once grasped, one will not let it slip.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #23
28. Not in one fell swoop, no
Not in one fell swoop, no. Look I'm optimistic about our chances. I'm hoping we can take the Senate and the House if the Prez candidate has coattails. But the idea that we could win liberal majorities big enough to pass single-payer in the next election is just not realistic.
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LuminousX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #23
33. Not enough seats
There just aren't enough seats in contest to make that happen. So we ask people to wait just a little bit longer for their health care.

Bull. Let's get in, do something now, do something that is nearly impossible to stop. Take care of the problem NOW and then start building the single payer system.
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dpbrown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #18
26. Dennis represents a "Reagan Republican" district
He won't have a problem working with Republicans.

But the key is to return the House and Senate at the same time.

http://www.kucinich.us/electable.htm

Dan Brown
Saint Paul, Minnesota
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #26
38. That is pure fantasy
His district has been represent either by a Democrat or a majority of Democrats for my entire life time save four years. Martin Hoke beat an indicted Mary Rose Ockar in 92 and a treasurer who messed up with derivatives in 94. That is it. His district is one of the most economicly liberal in the state and probably the nation.
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dpbrown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #38
46. You're obviously the one having a fantasy, not me
"His Congressional district includes the suburb of Parma, Ohio, described as "one of the original homes of the Reagan Democrats." An Ohio daily calls it a "conservative Democratic district," which he carried by 74% in 2002. Being a success there may be a better predictor of national success than holding statewide office in a liberal stronghold like Vermont or Massachusetts."

"He beat a Republican incumbent for mayor in 1977, for state senator in 1994 (overcoming the national right-wing tide) and for
Congress in 1996."

http://www.kucinich.us/electable.htm

Prove otherwise, please.

Dan Brown
Saint Paul, Minnesota


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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #46
51. Parma might be one seventh of his district
Edited on Thu Jul-31-03 11:10 PM by dsc
Parma has fewer than 80k and Congressional districts have around 600k. His district is largely Cleveland (around 200k) and Lakewood (50k). I live in the district (as opposed to St Paul). Cuyahoga County is a Democratic strong hold. Hagan carried Kucinich's district with ease. Gore carried it by over 2 to 1.

The only issues on which this district is even sort of conservative are social ones where the old Dennis was a good fit. Economicly his district is a liberal as it gets. No major city in his district has a Republican mayor. His district has one Republican State Senator and I think 2 State House members. That is out of 3 and 9 respectively. With the exception of Tubbs Jones district there isn't a more Democratic one in the whole state.

On edit

Here is one comparison that backs me up.

10th Congressional District, 66.8% in '98, 2nd term
D.C.'s Political Report's Prediction: 77% Democratic, Roll Call's Outlook: Likely Democratic, Campaign & Election's Odds: 4:1 Democrat, Congressional Quarterly's ranking: Safe Democrat,Dennis J. Kucinich (D) 74.9%steel worker Bill Smith (R) 22%business consultant Ron Petrie (L) 3.1%

11th Congressional District, 80.4% in '98, 1st term
D.C.'s Political Report's Prediction: 90% Democratic, Roll Call's Outlook: Safe Democratic, Campaign & Election's Odds: 5:1 Democrat, Congressional Quarterly's ranking: Safe Democrat, Hotline Scoop's Tier Three Freshmen,Stephanie Tubbs-Jones (D) 84.5%'94 / '96 nominee James Joseph Sykora (R) 11.5%independent bookseller Joel Carl Turner (L) 2.2%, '96 nominee / dentist Sonja K. Glavina (NL) 1.8%,


The top paragraph is Kucinich's district the second is Tubbs Jones. Her district is ranked safer but not by much. And only the villiage idiot would call her seat Republican.

Here is my link.

www.dcpoliticalreport.com/2000/OH00.htm


Again I know from whence I speak on this.
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gottaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #17
35. The time is now--hear that
One of the most persuasive arguments, which in this primary I first heard Moseley Braun make, but see echoed in Kucinich's statement, is that the current system is harming our major industries, and since we're all paying for it anyway, we might as well do it in a way that doesn't put our manufacturers at a disadvantage.

When I look at GM's or Ford's financials, I get like a sinking feeling, and while there are a lot of reasons behind that, the rising costs of health care are nothing to sneeze at.

Universal health care is the right prescription for our ailing manufacturing industries. It will make them more comptetive with European and Asian companies, and it will in all probability lead to more job creation.

The times have changed, and Dennis is right there at the vanguard with his health care proposal.

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ThorsteinVeblen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
21. Kucinich is unelectable
Edited on Thu Jul-31-03 01:29 PM by ThorsteinVeblen
Just look at the guy...just look at him.



The guy is about as inspiring as a wet, wool blanket.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #21
27. Kucinich is sincere and endearing to anyone who takes the time
to truly listen. Only a wet, wool blanket could manage to find a way to criticize Dennis for his looks. I wouldn't doubt that DK could access more stunning women than most of his critics.
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tpub Donating Member (508 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #21
29. I find that picture very inspiring
He looks like an honest, open person.
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ThorsteinVeblen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #29
42. Unfortunately you are in the minority
Realistically Kucinich doesn't have a prayer in hell. His policies are too radical and his leadership style alienates me and most other Americans. Most of us see him as effeminate and weak.
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Nazgul35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. Enough already....
As a Dean supporter it is time for us to point out those amongst us that go over the top! You have been way over the top on alot of threads and I for one am getting tired of being painted with the same brush for YOUR BEHAVIOR....making comments about a very distinguished and honorable man simply to gain cheap points certainly does not do Gov. Dean any favors.

I am asking that in the future you rise above the high schoolesq i know you are but what am I debating style or one can only conclude that you are in fact not a supporter of Dean's but an agent provacator whose sole purpose is to undermine and annoy....

I personally would like to appologize to all of Congressman Kucinich's supporters from all of Gov. Dean's supporters (those with half a brain or more) for such an idiotic statement!
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ThorsteinVeblen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #43
47. I am tellling the truth
And sometimes the truth hurts. I am not attacking anyone personally, I am discussing perceptions.

In the 2004 election, we are dealing with Karl Rove. It seems to me that some people here are floating up in the clouds in some sort of fantasy land where the American public is some enlightened, non-violent entity who will re-elect Jimmy Carter if only the Democratic Party would nominate him again.

I hate to burst your bubble but the Democratic Party needs to toughen up. If you truly want progressive reforms you have to have an electable candidate. The reality is that Kucinich is not electable.

If you don't think Rove will attack him on his "radical-leftie", "effeminate" qualities you are incredibly naive. The Republicans have been very effective in portraying the Democratic as such. For 30 years conservative media, conservative think tanks and conservative candidates have pounded and pounded on the point that Democrats are "weak". That is the current perception in the America electorate. If you don't believe me, look at the polls. Then look at Rove's talking points for the 2004 election.

The Democratic Party needs to change. It needs to portray itself as masculine and willing and able to defend this country against Terrorism. It also needs to differentiate it's Foreign Policy vision from the Republican nightmare. It needs to be able to counter the Republican media spin forcefully and with passion. The DLC has destroyed the Democratic Party by holding it back, editing it, hushing it, weakening it, making it second guess itself. Kuncinich is a reaction to this. But Kuncinich does not have the qualities to motivate anyone beyond the small percentage of the Democratic base who votes purely on issues.

If you think I am being hard on Kucinich now, just wait and see what happens if he get nominated. Rove will destroy him. Kucinich is McGovern - only worse. He is perceived as weak and effeminate and would cast this palor over the entire party ensuring that the spin of the last 30 years is cemented into the brains of the American electorate. If Kucinich can't handle the flames now, he should get the hell out the kitchen.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-02-03 04:44 AM
Response to Reply #47
67. So What? I say to Rove "Bring 'Em On"!
Kucinich is strong enough!!!

When are WE going to be strong enough to support him?

When are WE going to be strong enough to stand up to Rove's machinery by standing next to the greatest man in this race?

Because until the day we can do that, Rove's machinery will ALWAYS win!


This Is The Moment... The Time is Now!
http://www.muzility.com/video/viewer.php?code=kucinich/moment (watch it, please)

We are living in one of the most EVIL times of this world and we are at a cross-road. The world may not be able to afford even a little bit more evil in the White House. We need a Ghandi in this fucking country! And we need him now!

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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #43
54. I agree with Naz on this one
I don't think ANY candidate is unviable at this stage. They ALL have issues that should be heard. I'm supporting Dean, but we need to hear from ALL of the candidates...
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-02-03 04:35 AM
Response to Reply #43
66. Apology accepted! And because of posters like you,
I will try to pay closer attention to my posts for unintended insensitivity towards other candidates and ask any DK supporters who might go over the top to stop.

Thank you

And PS to Thorstein, My heartfelt thank you to Nazgul35 is also because of all the other Dean posters who upset me in the past (though many of them turned out to be freepers on a spree) so it's not meant to focus on you. Just on the principle.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #21
44. nice to see that you are playing the republican way thor
wink
They are the ones who say people are too ugly to win I think thats why you are impling. Give the man respect for crying out loud, he may not be what some regard as handsome but this is not a beauty paegant. Give the man a chance and listen to him he has very good ideas if you listen. Hes a behind the scenes fighter it seems but in reality hes been on the frontline for a while now and I hear from a Kucinich supporter who met him hes gonna introduce legislation to repeal the Patriot act. He has many good qualities hes been fighting the war for a long time and even spoke at rallies I am not sure if you support Dean or not but I know that Dean never spoke at one.
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ThorsteinVeblen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #44
50. I don't know handsome from not when it comes to men
but I know strength, fortitude, leadership and inspiration. I am afraid to say that Kucinich projects none.

I am working with reality here. I didn't right the book, I am just trying to deal with the rules. The rules, moral or no, are there.
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ThorsteinVeblen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-02-03 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #44
85. The guy is not too "ugly" to win
Edited on Sat Aug-02-03 03:08 PM by ThorsteinVeblen
The guy is too wimpy.

Hey, I don't make the rules. I just know that you ignore them at your own peril.

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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-02-03 03:15 AM
Response to Reply #21
64. Disagree Thorstein
Edited on Sat Aug-02-03 03:23 AM by Tinoire
I believe THIS election will not boil down to looks and slick marketing. People are too upset about the situation we're in and are looking at the issues and candidates more keenly than ever. And the internet is a big help.

If you don't like Kucinich's ideas just say so and stick to that. This type of attack is beneath you. All the candidates look Dorky in their own way if you ask me except for Clark and then Kerry- and I'm neither an admirer or supporter of either one because of things they've done these last few years.

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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-02-03 03:35 AM
Response to Reply #21
65. DK
has my vote...he looks fine to me.And better yet,he thinks fine too.
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dpbrown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
24. Dean is unelectable
There are two strategies for winning.

The DLC strategy says: the pie is always shrinking, and 40% always vote one way and 40% always vote the other way, so engage in focus-group politics to snare enough of the 20% in the "middle" to win.

The "conviction politician" says: people are disenchanted and will respond to a healthy, populist message, and that will bring non-traditional voters to the polls, thereby dipping into the other, bigger pie of people who don't vote.

Kerry, Gephardt, Graham, and Lieberman subscribe to the first theory.

Kucinich subscribes to the second.

Dean subscribes to neither. His followers are "proud" of pissing off both the so-called centrists, as well as dissing the "thinking liberals." His entire support structure, so far, is made up very vocal activists in the middle between liberals and centrists.

There's no way that kind of constituency will translate into a win against Bush, a guy who got enough votes to steal the election by "being a guy someone could have a beer with."

It's time for a conviction politician to win. While Kerry is making some moves in that direction, Kucinich is already there. He wins in a conservative district filled with "Reagan Republicans."

Kucinich is the politician the people have been waiting for. Wake up and smell the new day in America.

http://www.kucinich.us/electable.htm

Dan Brown
Saint Paul, Minnesota
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jiacinto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-01-03 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #24
58. Well
The distirct that belongs to Kuchincih has ALWAYS been Democratic. With the exception of a handful of elections in the 1990s his seat has always sent Democrats to Congress. His district, while being blue collar, is not conservative. It may have "Reagan Democrats", but it was never Republican.

And Kuchinich can't win the general election
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-02-03 05:05 AM
Response to Reply #58
69. Oh God Carlos. And then I read your posts
Edited on Sat Aug-02-03 05:05 AM by Tinoire
Why does God make me fall from the heigth of the discussion Thorstein and DpBrown were having to your tired, eternal line that "Kucinich is unelectable"?


I don't like almost all of your opinions because you are too centrist for me, but you have some great posts. But Carlos, please believe me"Kucinich is unelectable" is NOT one of them.


I beg you to please stop zig-zagging around this board with that phrase. I think we ALL got your point loud and clear. Now could you please tone it down a little and treat us to more of your well-thought out posts?

On edit: Thank you
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-02-03 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #69
75. His post is in direct response
to one claiming Dean is unelectable. Is it OK for people to say that about Dean but not Kucinich? If so, why? If not, then why single Carlos out and not comment on the post directly above his?

And Carlos is dead on with his description of that district. It is not some conservative bastion that you would like us to believe it to be.
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-02-03 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #75
81. So does Dennis get the big margins despite Parma, or with Parma?
I think that might be important.

I note too that the site you pointed out calls seats 'safe' or 'not safe' correlationally--i.e., 'safe' seems to mean 'as long as this incumbent stands for re-election'. I note, too, that Dennis's re-elections seem to have been against the current.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-02-03 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #81
82. Gore carried his seat
two to one and Hagan carried it while losing big statewide. Any incumbent will do better than any non incumbent at keeping a seat. But this is not some conservative seat. I don't know how well he did specificly in Parma but he had very token opposition and did only slightly better than Gore did in the district as a whole. That doesn't make him unelectable but it also doesn't make him the second coming of Clinton.

I also note you still didn't address your double standard. No criticism of the Dean is unelectable post but criticism of Carlos.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-02-03 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #75
86. Carlos has some really good posts but 2 things & he is wrong
I am simply tired of that one line because as I read the boards last night I found that exact same post in at least 3 threads. Carlos can do better than that.

And no, it's not ok for people to say that about Dean (or any other candidate). I'm not defensive about DK, I'm just tired of THAT line from Carlos all the time.

Also Carlos is wrong about that district always having been Democratic. That is factually incorrect. Read below. I have great hopes for this man DSC and I respect your choice in preferring Dean. I hope we will soon have the opportunity to have a civil, respectful debate on Dean vs Kucinich because most of us here are progressive, sincere and only wanting the unselfish best for our country. Peace

Is Kucinich Electable? Can He Beat Bush?


If any Democrat has a history of attracting swing voters and "Reagan Democrats" in winning elections against better-funded Republican opponents, it is Dennis Kucinich. He has repeatedly defeated entrenched incumbents. He beat a Republican incumbent for mayor in 1977, for state senator in 1994 (overcoming the national right-wing tide) and for Congress in 1996.

His Congressional district includes the suburb of Parma, Ohio, described as "one of the original homes of the Reagan Democrats." An Ohio daily calls it a "conservative Democratic district," which he carried by 74% in 2002. Being a success there may be a better predictor of national success than holding statewide office in a liberal stronghold like Vermont or Massachusetts.

Kucinich is a winner because he builds Wellstone-like grassroots campaigns against bigger-spending opponents. He is a winner because of his blue collar roots and populism, reflected in his battles for heartland voters against unfair, corporate-friendly trade deals.

He is an unabashed progressive who wins because swing voters who don't agree with him on every issue still see him as a fighter for their interests, as someone who will put the interests of workers and middle-class consumers ahead of big-money interests. No Democrat is better positioned in 2004 to attract 'Reagan Democrats' and swing voters with a frontal attack on how Bush policies hurt them and favor the rich.

Republicans use "wedge" issues to pry away traditionally-Democratic white working class voters -- a tactic that has not succeeded against Kucinich. In '96, for example, Republicans used his support of gay rights as a wedge, and he stood firm and triumphed.

On the other side of the spectrum, no other candidate can attract disaffected voters, 3rd party voters and Ralph Nader supporters to the Democratic column like Kucinich. Across the country, Nader 2000 voters and Green Party sympathizers are joining his campaign, as are other 3rd party supporters.

It's been a long while since progressives and the Democratic base have been so motivated, and so angry -- over manipulation and deceit that began in the 2000 election and continued through the Iraq war (now finally catching up with the Bush team). No candidate can better tap into and mobilize the anger of the Democratic base than Kucinich, who has never wavered in his opposition, who has courageously led the way in exposing war manipulation, and who speaks with passion to the big issues that animate Democratic and progressive activists.

Kucinich has been a winner in a swing district in the swing state of Ohio. And Ohio has 20 electoral votes. It is the state that is key to national victory; only two candidates in the 20th century won the presidency without carrying Ohio.

Al Gore lost Ohio in 2000 despite the Herculean efforts of Kucinich, as vividly described by journalist James Ridgeway in an article written days before the election: "Kucinich is a shoo-in, but hauling Gore along will be a daunting task. Shuttling back and forth from Washington, Kucinich has put together an old-fashioned canvassing operation throughout Cleveland and its suburbs that is one of the largest such efforts in the nation. By election day, 400 to 500 people will be on the streets...

"Day after day, members of the laborers, electricians, plumbers, and steelworkers unions crowd into Kucinich's tiny office on Lorain Avenue, piling signs into the backs of cars and pickups before hitting the neighborhoods. The general approach is for volunteers to use Kucinich's name to get a foot in the door, then ask for support for a Democratic judge before uttering the vice president's name."

Kucinich's best efforts couldn't win Ohio for Gore in 2000, but Kucinich can win Ohio himself if he is the 2004 Democratic presidential candidate. And in presidential politics, as Bush-strategist Karl Rove knows well: As Ohio goes, so goes the nation.
http://www.kucinich.us/electable.htm

In 1996, two years after his state legislative victory, Mr. Kucinich ran for the House and unseated a Republican incumbent, Martin R. Hoke. http://thespiritoffreedom.com/news_20030423.htm

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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-02-03 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #86
87. This is just not true
Sorry but I live here and this is a heck of a lot of spin.

First his district. Yes it includes Parma a city of about 80k. Congressional districts are around 550k to 600k. That makes Parma about 1/7 of his district. Parma also has a relatively liberal state Rep and a Democratic State Senator. His district includes Cleveland's west side (200-225k), Lakewood (50-60k), and several other western suburbs. Half his district is made up of two solidly Democratic enclaves. Cuyahoga county has no county wide Republican elected officals save judges which run on a non partisan ballot. His current district has been represented by either all Democrats or 2 Democrats and 1 Republican for every year since the 1960's save 1993-1997. That is about as Democratic as a seat is going to get. A guy named Stanton represented part of this district in the late 60's and early 70's back when it was three districts. In the 93-97 timespan Martin Hoke represented the entire district. He won in 92 against Mary Rose Ockar who had written over 300 bad checks on the House Bank and was under indictment. He won in 94 against the Cuyahoga county treasurer who bankrupted the county with investments in derivates and also got convicted.

That isn't a Republican district. It also gave Gore a close to 2-1 margin in 2000. The only issues on which this district is at all conservative (abortion and gay rights) Dennis used to be in at least partial agreement. He was pro life and he also supported DOMA. He has since changed his tune on both but he wasn't elected nor reelected as a pro choice, pro gay marriage candidate. Time will tell on that.

I am not saying he is unelectable but he also isn't piling up victories in Republican areas. The one victory which is impressive is over Sinagra in 94. That was a true upset but it was in a very Democratic district. Sinagra won in 90 and was a one term wonder. But still, Dennis was outspent and Sinagra was scandal free so it was an impressive win.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-02-03 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #87
93. Thanks for your honest perspective
I like the sincerity that you bring to these discussions. Your final paragraph is a very bright note and I appreciate that :)

The important point though (since I'm just not a demographics type of gal - poetry not math if you know what I mean) is that he won. He won and he can win again.

As an idealist who has seen idealism win, both in history and in politics, I abhor self-defeating attititude and believe that if that's what posters believe they should either keep it to themselves or back it up with the facts relevant to that particular discussion on that particular thread- like you just did and like Carlos has often done.

And I still do plan to have a Dean supporters, please weigh in thread but to tell you the truth I am SO physically tired that knowing how man Dean supporters there are, the thought jars me because that thread won't be slow-moving enough to keep trouble out if trouble decides to show up! Peace & thanks
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-02-03 04:56 AM
Response to Reply #24
68. Dpbrown!! WHAT do you do for a living? !!!
You need to hire your services out! Do you have any idea how much punch was packed in that post?! I'm just glad you're supporting my candidate because that was powerfully written


Your whole exchange with Thorstein and other posters have been a fascinating read (so kudos to all, even Thorstein for these last few posts) but you just WHOMPED it!

You really, really need to write more at DU and consider doing it professionally. You too Thorstein, but first you need to rub off a few angles a wee bit. Wow. Thank you both. Fascinating thought processes and abilities to get it out. That was better than a BBC debate. :toast: for your abilities
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 02:04 PM
Response to Original message
31. Kerry Is With Dean For Making It Do-able
Kerry's plan:

"It builds on the system we have now instead of trying to create a government-run bureaucracy. We don't need to reinvent the wheel. But we do need real and far-reaching reform.

I will not add bureaucracy - I will slash it. I will not stick Americans into a one-size-fits-all program - I will give them more options and more choices.

In the year 2000, America spent $1.4 trillion on health care. In 2010, that number is estimated to be twice as high. Unless we do a far better job of containing costs our health care system will literally collapse.

It would be one thing if all those dollars were being spent making Americans healthier. They're not. Our system simply has too much waste and too much fraud; there's too much inefficiency and too much abuse, too much bureaucracy and too much greed."

Kerry will cut bureaucracy and costs through:

1) subsidizing catastrophic costs to reduce premiums by up to 10%.

2) up front preventive care

3) demanding the switch to computer medical records

4) cutting out bulk-buying middlemen

5) weeding out meritless malpractice suits (keeping patient's rights)

I've put his plan in an easy-to-read format:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=9760&mesg_id=9760

And people say there's no positive threads anymore...

<>
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LuminousX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. Dean Gephardt and Kerry
All have a realistic pragmatic approach to the problem. I think any of those three programs would work (rarely is there only one way to solve a problem and normally the best solution is the one that is actually applied to the problem).
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genius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 03:06 PM
Response to Original message
36. His health care plan leaves a lot of people and children behind
Back in Vermont, children were refused coverage because the payments were to low.
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LuminousX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. "a lot of people and children"
What percentage of population? He never claimed 100% coverage. Hell if we could get coverage to 90% nationally we'd be taking a HUGE step forward.
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genius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. It would be easy to institute a health care plan for all
but that has to be a priority. Dean's priority seems to be military spending.
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LuminousX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. Laughable Claim
Easy to institute, eh? Then why hasn't it been done?

Practical solutions are needed. Saying military spending means more to Dean is just bizarre and I think that you may be going into my ignore file. I haven't seen a written agenda of what Dean's priorities are, but health care was one of the first issues I saw him speak about.

I haven't seen any proposed budgets because there aren't any yet. So where does this claim come from?
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Pavlovs DiOgie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #39
45. No
His priority has clearly been outlined: balancing the budget. That's his number one goal. He's firm on that, and that matter won't change. Love those emotional claims though based on perception instead of facts.
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 04:12 PM
Response to Original message
41. Which is exactly how Dean
Edited on Thu Jul-31-03 04:20 PM by Nicholas_J
FAILED in Vermont. He tried to weasel his way around the exixting system,raising costs so much, and giving ENROMOUS profits to the health service providers and insurance companies that are Dean's Bechtels and Harkin Oil. If Dena gets into office. one can expect to pay more for ones health care, to pay larger co-payments, to have all kinds of hidden taxes inserted into the consumer tax system, and emormous windfall profits going to insurance commpanies.

In 1992, Vemront had 90.6 percent of its population having some kind of health care insurance, whetther through work, medicare or medicaid. Byt the year Dean left, his grand incremental plan increased this to 91.4 percent.

Both Medicare and Medicaid are very much broken systems. They need to be FIXED.

AS I have said in the past. Deans promise to do for the U.S. with regards to Univbersal Health Care, wnat he did in Vermont, is ome promise he will easily keep, as he did nothing. EVERY additoinal person who recieved health care in Vermont while Dean was governor recieved it due to changes in Medicaid made by Bill CLinton. There was not health care legislation in Vermont increasing health care, exceapt a few pieces that harmonized Vermont law with changes to medicaid.

Dean created a DISASTER in Vermont with his incremental methods.

This is what a comission started by Dean said about Deans incremental method,and leadership in health care:

I. Authority, Scope

A. On January 24, 2001, Governor Howard Dean issued an executive order establishing a Special Governor's Bipartisan Commission on Health Care Availability and Affordability.

A. Our commission is made up of people who have spent years listening to testimony and otherwise studying the problems of health care availability and affordability. We have differences, some of them passionate differences, in our political philosophies, and it should come as no surprise that we differ on some of the directions reform should take. Although we have taken a substantial amount of new testimony during the past nine months, our real task has been to try to find common recommendations, despite our philosophical differences.2

B. Based on what we have learned, we do agree on this: Health care in Vermont is near a state of crisis -- some of us would say it is already in crisis -- and all health care sectors are on edge. We also note that many of these problems are national or even global in scope and that our abilities to solve them at the state level are limited.

C. Health care costs in Vermont, now exceeding $2 billion a year, are of a sufficient magnitude, however, and are increasing at a sufficient rate to place state government itself in jeopardy, including every program for which it appropriates money. By comparison, Vermonters budgeted $1.8 billion for all state government services in FY 2001 (not including federal funds).3

We are rapidly approaching the point at which these costs will directly conflict with our ability to do such things as to maintain roads and bridges, for example, or to provide cost-effective services to our infants and children, to promote agriculture and tourism, or to provide any other services our citizens have come to expect.

D. We do not have a health care system in Vermont.4 That means:

1. No one is in control.

2. No one is responsible for ensuring that high-quality medical care is adequate for the needs of the public.

3. No one ensures that medical charges are appropriate or that they are paid in full.5

4. There is a "disconnect" between the consumer receiving health care and the entity paying the bill. Consumers are shielded from the cost of the service.

5. There is no global budgeting or targeted growth planning for health care in Vermont.

6. There is little in the way of public accountability for the performance of health care institutions, or for their long-term planning.

7. Although administrative costs, including those associated with government paperwork burdens, have reached an unacceptable level, no one has been able to do anything about it.

E. This commission does not recommend the Single Payer option, even though we have been told by The Lewin Group that it could cover all Vermonters, including more than 51,000 currently uninsured, for 5 percent less than what we are collectively paying now.6 Some of our opposition is on philosophical grounds, but in practical terms, we reject that option for a variety of reasons, including:

1. Concern over the negative financial impact on small employers and wage effects on employees in terms of reduced wages or lost jobs (assuming that most program costs would come from a payroll tax).

2. Concern over whether, in the American historical political context, it would be possible for government to control costs and utilization.

3. Doubt that program funding would be maintained at an adequate level so as not to place health care institutions at financial risk and cause providers to leave the state.

4. Belief that the political consensus necessary for implementation does not exist.


http://216.239.37.100/search?q=cache:aC9QzqwOEmkJ:www.state.vt.us/health/commission/docs/report/mainreport.doc+%22Howard+Dean%22+%22Incentive+Plan+for+Medicaid%22&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

This is just Dean inching away from providing ANY sort of solution for the Health Care crisis.Again, a hustle to try to make certain that he can capture as much of those billions for his big health business backers as possible.

Even though numerous consultants hired to determing the best way to provide universal health insurance is SINGLE PAYER, Dean is still stubbornly trying to force the plan he NEVER was able to get to work nad which in fact threatened to collapse the entire government of Vermont without adding coverage to a substantial percent of Vermonters without it.

Dean is trying to weasel pit ofhis original, I can do this and do it cheaply crap now that it is coming out that he didnt know what the hell he was talking about.
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keek Donating Member (289 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #41
49. HELLO???
"We also note that many of these problems are national or even global in scope and that our abilities to solve them at the state level are limited."

:think:

Are we reading the same document? the committee recognized that the problems can only be fixed at a FEDERAL level.

The committee did not recommend the single payer option.

"This commission does not recommend the Single Payer option... Some of our opposition is on philosophical grounds, but in practical terms, we reject that option for a variety of reasons, including:
1. Concern over the negative financial impact on small employers and wage effects on employees in terms of reduced wages or lost jobs (assuming that most program costs would come from a payroll tax).
2. Concern over whether, in the American historical political context, it would be possible for government to control costs and utilization.
3. Doubt that program funding would be maintained at an adequate level so as not to place health care institutions at financial risk and cause providers to leave the state.
4. Belief that the political consensus necessary for implementation does not exist." {ahem...}

Look, as always you are trying to make up a huge controversy. You fail every time. Gov. Dean is running for President because there are massive problems with the Democratic party and Republican party. There is only so much he can do as a Governor and he is running for higher office because as President he can do even more than what he could have done at a state level. He has worked on the Health care system in VT. Does he say that it's perfect, flawless? no. Is it a good plan? YES. Why? Because he is not all about flooding billions and billions into an entirely new system. He is pragmatic. He says, "how can we improve health care?" Answer: prevention and improving the existing system so that we have a base to expand upon in the future.




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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #49
53. Sorry you neglect to point oiut the real issues
Edited on Thu Jul-31-03 11:57 PM by Nicholas_J
Dean still had NO plan, and this report clearly points that out. THey state that the best way, perhaps the only way to do what is recommeneded is a single payer plan.

D. We do not have a health care system in Vermont.4 That means:

1. No one is in control.

2. No one is responsible for ensuring that high-quality medical care is adequate for the needs of the public.

3. No one ensures that medical charges are appropriate or that they are paid in full.5

4. There is a "disconnect" between the consumer receiving health care and the entity paying the bill. Consumers are shielded from the cost of the service.

5. There is no global budgeting or targeted growth planning for health care in Vermont.

6. There is little in the way of public accountability for the performance of health care institutions, or for their long-term planning.

7. Although administrative costs, including those associated with government paperwork burdens, have reached an unacceptable level, no one has been able to do anything about it.

E. This commission does not recommend the Single Payer option, even though we have been told by The Lewin Group that it could cover all Vermonters, including more than 51,000 currently uninsured, for 5 percent less than what we are collectively paying now.6 Some of our opposition is on philosophical grounds, but in practical terms, we reject that option for a variety of reasons, including:

1. Concern over the negative financial impact on small employers and wage effects on employees in terms of reduced wages or lost jobs (assuming that most program costs would come from a payroll tax).

2. Concern over whether, in the American historical political context, it would be possible for government to control costs and utilization.

3. Doubt that program funding would be maintained at an adequate level so as not to place health care institutions at financial risk and cause providers to leave the state.

4. Belief that the political consensus necessary for implementation does not exist.

F. In the alternative, we have proposed a number of initiatives that would collectively address many of the problems of health care availability and affordability. Among our recommendations are measures

1. To promote personal responsibility for health behaviors.

2. To curb excessive administrative costs.

3. To offer health care availability and affordability to more people by extending Vermont Health Access Plan coverage with minimal damage to the commercial insurance market.

4. To strengthen the insurance market and promote the possibility of more insurers offering health insurance.

5. To enhance education and critical thinking about health and related topics.

6. To curb unnecessary health care utilization.

G. We also recommend that the Legislature take greater responsibility for ensuring the availability and affordability of health care in Vermont.7

H. We recognize that many of the availability and affordability problems in Vermont require federal solutions,8 and we include with this report a letter to our Congressional Delegation with recommendations for federal action.

I. This commission is united in our belief that decisive action must be taken by the Legislature in the immediate future, and that new and unprecedented ways of approaching the challenge, including those presented here, must be given careful consideration.

III. Context of the Problems

This outline is presented as a frame of reference for the problems we identify and the recommendations we present elsewhere in this report. We understand that is not a complete treatment of the subject, but we offer it as a guide to understanding the context of our discussions.

A. By conventional measures, the quality of health care in Vermont is considered to be good.

1. As is the case in any state, quality varies significantly by location, by provider sector, and by availability of competent professionals and paraprofessionals.

2. The methods of measuring health care quality in Vermont are limited. Vermont creates and has amassed significant amounts of health care data, but has not yet learned to use these data to drive decision making. Policy makers have inadequate information about

a. Basic system-level outcomes.

b. The relationship between quality and financial incentives offered by vendors, insurers and others doing business in the health care economy.

B. The health care economic sector in Vermont, now exceeding $2 billion, has grown to a size comparable to the size of state government;9 unlike state government, however, its spending decisions are not legislated or subject to gubernatorial veto or similar consequences, nor are they subject to public stewardship controls such as the state government's Capital Debt Affordability Advisory Committee.

1. One partial exception is the Public Oversight Commission's review of hospital operations.

a. There has never been any overall assessment, however, of the appropriate range of services to be offered by Vermont's 14 community hospitals.

2. Health care spending is rising far faster than personal income or government revenue.10

3. Like others in the United States, Vermonters pay considerably more per capita for health care than do people anywhere else in the industrially developed world.11 As noted above, we now spend more on health care than we do in state revenues to support state government.

4. The current health care financing arrangement employs a combination of public and private funds and direct and third-party payments.

C. Vermont provides government coverage intended to be sufficient to ensure financial access to health care for children, pregnant women, and new mothers.

D. Vermont ranks among the highest in the nation in the percentage of residents who have health care coverage.12

E. Most patients in Vermont aren't directly responsible for the actual costs of their health care.

F. The financial access to health care varies enormously. For some people, there are minimal financial barriers to obtaining necessary care. For others, necessary care is financially inaccessible.

G. With significant exceptions, Vermonters have enough health care facilities and personnel to serve their needs. The chief exceptions are related to shortages of primary care practioners in some rural parts of the state, dentists in some areas, physicians in pediatric subspecialties, nurses and nursing assistants.

H. Generally speaking, Vermont's utilization rate for medical care is below the national average and the national utilization rate is the lowest in the industrial world.

1. Vermont inpatient hospitalization rates are below the national average. Data on outpatient utilization are incomplete.13

2. U.S. hospital utilization rates are the lowest in the industrialized world.14

3. Vermonters on Medicare visit the doctor less frequently than do Medicare recipients in any other state. Data on doctor visits by non-Medicare patients are incomplete.15

4. U.S. citizens in general visit the doctor less often than do people in any other industrialized nation except Britain.16

5. The relationship between higher utilization rates and higher health care and coverage costs is complex. In certain areas of preventive care, for example, curbing utilization does not necessarily curb costs.

6. Of those who seek health care, a very small proportion uses a very high percentage of our health care resources.17

7. Even greatly decreasing utilization rates among the larger portion of the population that is healthy would have limited effect on care and coverage costs, since these are not the people using most of the health care resources.

8. The intensity of care, another aspect of utilization, clearly affects costs. "Intensity" refers to the substitution of a more expensive procedure or treatment for one that is less expensive. MRIs, for example, are more intensive (and more costly) than X-rays, and brand-name drugs tend to be more expensive than generics.

9. While increased costs attributed to utilization can be caused by the increasing use of high technology equipment and procedures, this increasing use can also result in higher quality of care.

10. In general, neither lower nor higher utilization rates are reliable indicators of appropriate care.

I. Vermont adopted community rating in the early 1990s to assure that all small businesses and individual Vermonters have access to health insurance at rates generally available in the marketplace without discrimination based on health status or, within certain parameters, age.

1. Some insurers withdrew from the Vermont market because they did not wish to compete in a community-rated marketplace where they were required to insure all types of risks at similar rates.

2. Community rating has the effect of lowering costs for older people and those with medical conditions while raising them for younger, healthier people. It does not provide incentives to avoid freely chosen risky behaviors.

3. Higher prices for younger people and for businesses with a young, healthy workforce may result in their foregoing insurance entirely, or, in the case of small businesses, in their choosing to self-insure.18

J. Government regulation limits market forces in both health care and health care coverage for certain policy purposes. Limitations are imposed, for example, to make private coverage available for people with medical problems and to spread the cost over the insured population.

1. Vermont ranks about average in the nation with respect to the number and scope of its insurance mandates.

2. Government regulation has not achieved the goal of satisfactorily controlling costs.

http://216.239.37.100/search?q=cache:aC9QzqwOEmkJ:www.state.vt.us/health/commission/docs/report/mainreport.doc+%22Howard+Dean%22+%22Incentive+Plan+for+Medicaid%22&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Since this is a GOVERNMENT document, it is permissable to publish large sections of it.

Regardless, This plan points out that Dean nas NEVER had a plan for Vermont he killed the original planfor universal health care by threateneing a veto to the single payer plan. His own ideas for a multipayer plan had even LESS support than the single payer planned and got killed before it even left the Vermont House of Representatives. So Dean killed his own baby, because he wanted a plan that force all small employers to provide health insurance to all employees, even if these were small mom and pop businesses hiring a kid to do deliveries and could not even afford Heal INsurance for themselves, much less an employee.

Virtually all the coverage provided to people without insurance, which before Dean became governor 90.6 percent of the state had coverage, and by the date of the report above. 91.4 percent were covered. At this incremental rate of .8 percent increase in ten years, Deans incremental methods would take 0ver 100 years to provide 100 percent coverage in Vermont alone.

Vermonters, getting sick of Deanfailing to keep this pact for universal health were fairly sick of him by 2000, betweeen the Republican attacks on Civil Unions, and the losses to the Progressive PArty due to Deans conservatism, Dean himself feared that he would not get the 50 percent vote required, and the decision would be made by secret ballot in the legislature...the REPUBLICAN legislature.

So Dean again PROMISES health care by 2002:

Dean promises health coverage for all by 2002
October 4, 2000

By FREDERICK BEVER Vermont Press Bureau

BURLINGTON - Gov. Howard Dean on Tuesday unveiled an ambitious goal for Vermont's health care system - enactment by 2002 of a plan that would lead to health insurance coverage for every state resident.

Appearing at a press conference at the Burlington Community Health Center, Dean said he would build on proposals expected from a $1.3 million, yearlong study of Vermont's health care system aimed at finding ways to get insurance to Vermonters who currently lack it.

"It will allow us to look at the infrastructure essentially for going to universal health care for all Vermonters," Dean said. "It's a complicated subject; $1.3 million is a lot of money, and I think we ought to be able to figure out how to solve the problem. ... We're going to look at some innovative things."

Those innovations might include a state subsidy to help small employers buy health insurance for their workers, or the expansion of federal or state health insurance programs. Although the study will emphasize building on existing programs, it may also include consideration of more radical changes, such as the "high risk pool" and "single-payer system" advocated, respectively, by Dean's Republican and Progressive opponents.

http://www.geocities.com/dmmead/2002/sc0110.html

http://rutlandherald.nybor.com/News/State/Story/13593.html

THis time he adds a vague statement about helping small businesses with grants to assist them. But as soon as the election is over, the promise is forgotten:

But by 2002, what is Dean doing:

Slicing the state budget


By Tom Zolper
Free Press Staff Writer

MONTPELIER -- When the state's economy drooped this fall, Gov. Howard Dean huddled with his cabinet members to deliver a sober message: Prepare to diet.

In weight watchers' language, all state agencies were instructed to plan to lose up to 10 percent of their body weight. The good times were over.

When legislators return to Montpelier on Tuesday for the opening of the session, they will find the state's finances in worse condition than when they left in June. Money from tax collections flattened this fall just as costs for schools, road projects and government health-care programs were climbing.

Lawmakers will make difficult decisions on spending and taxation, some for the first time in their careers. Dean will ask them to go along with his austerity program. But crowds of Vermonters and special interest lobbyists also will warn about the consequences of budget cuts.

http://www.geocities.com/dmmead/2002/sc0110.html

And these are among Denas recommended cuts:

Governor’s Budget Cuts Medicaid Programs

Governor Howard Dean, in his eleventh and last budget address, cut several Medicaid programs including prescription drugs, dental care and vision services. Dean told lawmakers times a tough and sacrifices had to be made.

The Dean budget for FY 2003 is $891 million in state spending, one percent more than the state expects to spend this fiscal year but nearly 3% less than the budget passed last year ($916 million). Revenues this year are expected to be $50 million below budget. Dean wants to use the "Rainy Day" fund to cover some of the $50 million shortfall but does not want to tap that fund for FY 2003. Next year’s budget is based on revenue estimates of $893 million.

If passed as presented, Dean’s budget would:

Eliminate the VScript Expanded Program.

Reduce the Vermont Health Access Plan pharmacy benefit.

Increase the co-pay up to $750/year for medicines under both the VScript and VHAP pharmacy programs. (Those eligible now pay only a few dollars for each filled prescription).

Eliminate the Medicaid dentures, chiropractic and podiatry programs.

Reduce the adult dental programs (cover pain and suffering only, not preventative care).

Add a 50% co-pay to adult vision programs.

Add a $250 co-pay per admission to VHAP inpatient hospital benefit.

Reduce the hospital outpatient payment by 10%.

Establish a hospital outpatient co-pay of $25.

These cuts would save about $27 million, $11 million in state money. Few advocates for the elderly are happy with the budget and have vowed to restore the money lost to these programs. A coalition of over a dozen advocacy groups held a rally and press conference at the Capitol building to denounce the budget cuts.

Dean also reminded lawmakers that they failed to pass a cigarette tax increase last year and suggested the 67 cent tax increase should be passed this year. Currently the Vermont cigarette tax is 44 cent/pack. Opponents of increasing the tax argue that this is, at best, a short term solution, especially since the number of smokers is declining. Opponents also complain that a higher tax would put the businesses along the Connecticut River at a huge disadvantage with New Hampshire because this increase would put the Vermont tax considerably higher than the New Hampshire tax. Proponents of a higher tax argue that a higher cigarette tax not only would provide badly needed money but also would discourage teenagers from smoking. Most studies show that high price is the most important factor in reducing teenage smoking.

http://vnavt.com/vahhavoicewinter2002.htm

Dean IS offerd ALTERNATIVES. INcome tax increases. Thje exact same program that was passed by Governor Snelling before he dies, and which got rid of the budget deficits Dean inherited. He laso inherited the actions that reduced them, but Dean is careful not to give the credit to Snelling, to whom it is due:


Progressives call for higher taxes for rich
January 25, 2002

By JACK HOFFMAN

Vermont Press Bureau

MONTPELIER — Vermont Progressives renewed their call Thursday for higher taxes on the wealthy in order to avoid some of the budget cuts that Gov. Howard Dean outlined earlier this week.

The Progressives said their proposal was designed to mirror the surcharges adopted during that last budget crisis, but they have not proposed an expiration date for the new surcharges.

Dean reiterated his opposition to raising the income tax shortly after the Progressives unveiled their tax plan. Dean contends Vermont’s marginal income tax rate — that is, the top rate paid by those in the highest income brackets — already is too high.


http://timesargus.nybor.com/Legislature/Story/41293.html

Far from being a man of vision, Dean is so conservative, and wrapped so tighly into that conservativism to return to the VERY methods that worked a decade earlier and which he takes credit for.



Finally, the Senate, decides trhat Dean is so conservative and so in league with republican ideas, that they just override him and pass a budget that adds money and gets rid of some of Deans cuts:

Senate adds money to budget, angers Dean
May 9, 2002

By ROSS SNEYD The Associated Press

MONTPELIER — Senators passed a 2003 state budget Wednesday that the governor made clear he would veto if it ever reached his desk.

Just hours after an angry Gov. Howard Dean leveled a series of charges about how irresponsible he believed the Senate, controlled by his fellow Democrats, was being, senators did precisely what he warned them not to do.

Even the governor’s closest allies in the Senate ignored him. Sen. Nancy Chard, D-Windham, recommended restoring $440,000 to one of the pharmaceutical assistance programs and the Senate voted 22-7 to go along with her.

“I’ve become convinced that we have a philosophical difference between the governor, the Republican House and this Senate,” said Senate President Pro Tempore Peter Shumlin, D-Windham.

“The governor and the Republican House want to balance this budget on the backs of our most vulnerable Vermonters. The Senate wants to balance this budget on the backs of the pharmaceutical companies who are charging too much for drugs.”

http://timesargus.nybor.com/Legislature/Story/46513.html

Sorry, Deans economic conservatism, and his entire nature is one of a man who is TOO fixed in his opinions to change when change is needed.

Nothing has ever come out of anything conservative. It takes a liberal and progressive nature, and a liberal and progressive politician to be bold and courageous enough to let go of ones own opinions quickly and respond rapidly in a crisis. Dena just does not have than nature, He is a one trick pony. He knows only one anwer an applies it to every problem. That is Cut taxes, Cut spending.

Thats the same answer that George W. Bush has for everything.

Months ago I posted that Dean will eventually start backing away from Universal Health care, and strt the same old incremental crapola. Sorry with now more thna FIFTY million people witout health insurance, ands prices raising so fast for others that they frequently do not get treated, even with insurance, because they cannot afford their share of the payments, an incremental answer is not the right one. It is TOO late for incrementalism.

The most interesting point in the study is that it states that Vermont is only at the national average for providing health care. Affter Deans supposed ten year effort, that is pathetic.





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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-31-03 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #53
55. And ANOTHER Dean dollar...
Edited on Thu Jul-31-03 11:58 PM by MercutioATC
Nick, you're going to cost me a fortune at this rate...

Gov. Dean thanks you, though..

explanation:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=9385&mesg_id=9385
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-02-03 08:12 AM
Response to Reply #55
71. It's a pity that your responses don't address the substance
of what Nicholas posts. His posts look like fairly solid stuff, to me. I can recall only one thing that I spotted that was 'off' -- a critcism of Dean by what turned out to be a lumber-industry sockpuppet.

Why not address the substance rather than channeling Reagan?

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RevolutionStartsNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-02-03 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #71
74. This particular criticism is getting tiring....
Lots of people here have addressed the substance of what Nicholas and other people have posted about Dean. There are, if you look, some good threads about Dean's stances on various issues where thoughtful discussion ensues. But after awhile, it gets tiresome to have to respond to the same thing over and over and over....

So most of us have stopped responding. So the accusations become wilder..."Dean is mostly to blame for the war..." -- should we be trying to counter this? What's the point?

I am tired of being called uninformed, mindless, etc. I do not think all non-Dean supporters are fans of Karl Rove. I accept that other people within my party may have different views on the issues and may prefer a different candidate.

I can't speak for the few Dean people on here who DO attack the anti-Dean threads...but there are just as many anti-Dean people starting those threads.

Off to hit the surf...
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #74
94. It wouldn't re-appear if there were substantive responses
I haven't seen substantive responses gleaned from third-party liberal sources (we are supposed to be liberal/left here, right?). I've seen claims and assertions taken from Dean's website or speeches. They don't do the job.
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #74
105. That is the problem with many Dean supporters
The criticise criticism of Dean, but cannot come uo with ANY valid progressive or democratic resons for Deans promises and then failure to come through:

Dean has failed to keep most of his campiogn promises to the public. and though he kept every promise to big business and his republican supporters what we are seeing here is a Dean re-run:



Dean promises health coverage for all by 2002
October 4, 2000

By FREDERICK BEVER Vermont Press Bureau

BURLINGTON - Gov. Howard Dean on Tuesday unveiled an ambitious goal for Vermont's health care system - enactment by 2002 of a plan that would lead to health insurance coverage for every state resident.

Appearing at a press conference at the Burlington Community Health Center, Dean said he would build on proposals expected from a $1.3 million, yearlong study of Vermont's health care system aimed at finding ways to get insurance to Vermonters who currently lack it.

"It will allow us to look at the infrastructure essentially for going to universal health care for all Vermonters," Dean said. "It's a complicated subject; $1.3 million is a lot of money, and I think we ought to be able to figure out how to solve the problem. ... We're going to look at some innovative things."

Those innovations might include a state subsidy to help small employers buy health insurance for their workers, or the expansion of federal or state health insurance programs. Although the study will emphasize building on existing programs, it may also include consideration of more radical changes, such as the "high risk pool" and "single-payer system" advocated, respectively, by Dean's Republican and Progressive opponents.

Aside from the controversial civil unions law, health care is shaping up as a top issue in the gubernatorial campaign. Dean, for instance, said health care would be the theme of his campaign this week.

His GOP opponent, Ruth Dwyer, unveiled her plan last week, sharply criticizing the policies of the Dean administration. And Progressive hopeful Anthony Pollina planned a press conference on the same subject today.

According to Dean administration figures, expansion of the Dr. Dynasaur children's health care program has made sure that all children in Vermont have health insurance coverage.

The administration's analysis also shows that 93.7 percent of all Vermonters have some sort of coverage - a number Dean said should look even better when firmer figures become available.

Recent U.S. Census Bureau figures appeared to show that the number of uninsured Vermonters jumped significantly between 1998 and 1999. But Dean and independent analysts say the federal figures are unreliable when reporting figures for small states like Vermont.

http://rutlandherald.nybor.com/News/State/Story/13593.html

But a few short years later:

Medicaid cuts will affect thousands of Vermonters
January 23, 2002

By DAVID MACE

Vermont Press Bureau

MONTPELIER — Tens of thousands of Vermonters would see their state health care benefits rolled back or cut off completely under Gov. Howard Dean’s proposed budget, which seeks to wring $16.5 million in savings from Medicaid.

In an effort to curb costs in a rapidly expanding part of the social services budget, Dean is proposing to require many people who got coverage under his expansions of Medicaid programs to pay for a greater share of their health care.

Medicaid is the state-run program that uses both state and federal money to provide benefits to the poor and disabled. Over the past several years Dean has expanded the programs by allowing participation by Vermonters with incomes higher than the federal guidelines.

Under the proposed budget, about 3,200 elderly or disabled Vermonters who get half the cost of long-term drugs paid for under a program called VScript Expanded would see their benefits disappear. This would save the state nearly $2.5 million. A single Vermonter with an annual income up to $19,332 is currently eligible.

And even those making less who are covered under the state’s standard VScript program will see their costs rise.

http://timesargus.nybor.com/Legislature/Story/41169.html

What we see is Dean doing exactly the same as he did in Vermont.

First speaking of the drastic and immediate need for universal health care. Now backing away from it. I would not be surprised that if Dean was elected, he would not decide totally cut coverage as unaffordable:


In interviews this week, several liberal Vermont politicians and political observers said Dean often found himself in an adversarial position with the state's liberals, as he demanded that growth in government services fall within the constraints of a balanced budget.

Even as he was unsuccessfully promoting a state version of universal health care in Vermont in the early 1990s, he was a staunch supporter of welfare reform, particularly requiring recipients to work.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A4798-2003Jul30.html


Dena has also spoken of raising the age of retirement to 68 and reducing medicare payments to doctors (patients pick up the difference) in order to balance the budget.

This is traditional Howard. He talks the big talk about everything that is needed, and that his opponents have failed to provide, and then begins to renege on his statements and promises.

He has always done this. Dean has gotten by primarily on the massive support of big business. Now while criticising the DLC for doing fare less of this than Dean has done throughout his own career. many Dean supporters still try to make excuses for Deans use of deception in order to get support.


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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-02-03 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #71
78. Then you need to read more of his posts
He has stated that George Voinovich is a liberal. He has stated in several threads that Dean spent no state money on Dr. Dynosaur. Then in other threads he claims that Dr. Dynosaur bankrupted Vermont. He has stated Dean had no role in civil unions then went on to later post he couldn't win the South due to his roll in creating civil unions. He claimed Dean had no gay rights record before civil unions. He claimed that Vermont has the death penalty. I could go on and on with substantive errors and incosistancies that his person has posted and which have been pointed out to him over, and over, and over again. Again you need to read more before you speak.
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-02-03 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #78
80. Actually, I read almost all his posts. As he points out here,
Edited on Sat Aug-02-03 01:55 PM by Mairead
they are typically quotations from sources that are rather liberal or are governmental --or at least they also seem that way to me. I could wish that Nicholas drew a more clear line between his quotes and his own additions -- sometimes I have to read twice or more to pick up where the voice changes -- but apart from that, I'm having a hard time understanding why he's being berated for what other people say.

As to rebuttals, I haven't seen many of them. I've seen a lot of angry, dismissive claims and assertions taken from Dean's speeches, etc., but not comparable third-party stuff that would refute the alleged disconnect between his record as governor and current quasi-stances. So I don't know what to do about what you're saying here.

(edit: fixed wording)
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-02-03 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #80
84. Then you must not have seen many posts by me
I directly rebutted civil unions with both quotes in his several threads and with a seperate thread. I posted Dean's gay rights record, with links, on at least five seperate occasions. I posted several sights on Voinovich and suggested print resources as well. The fact you didn't see it isn't my fault.
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #84
95. I have, you know
but you and I differ on what constitutes a rebuttal, I think.

And civil unions is far from the only issue of importance.
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #84
101. None of your links
gave any indication of Dean support for CIVIL UNIONS
Prior to December of 1999.
Nor did Dena ever do what it was completely within his power to do. To sponsor and request legislation that protected the civil rights of gays. or ask for an act that gave them the rights of Civil Union to begin with.

Dean was no leader in this area. HE was led.

Now show any record of Dean demanding Civil Union legislation. Of Dean being in the vauguard of support for gay rights, but DOING something ratther thn talking, as Dean always does. Anyone can bullshit. It takes balls, like Kerry has to actually sponros legislation, and get up and fight aghainst opposing legislation..

O.K. show me Dean proposals for civil unions. Show me his directly answering the questions of those who wanted a stance on the case that led to civil unions.

As I said, talk is cheap, and all Dean ever did was talk, until he was TOLD he had to let gays marry, or accept an alternative parallel set of laws. Dean created NOTHING.

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RevolutionStartsNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-02-03 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #80
91. The problem is...
that even though Nicholas sometimes posts an interesting article that would warrant discussion, his bias is so intense and narrow-minded that it's not worth the time.

He has called Dean "a tyrant" "a petty mediocrity" "in a way worse than Bush". He has stated that "if anyone is to blame for the war, it's Dean." The other day he also said that Dean running for president and not practicing medicine has probably saved lives...are these the words of a sane and rational person? I don't think so. He has already stated that's it's his mission to "deprogram" Dean supporters and lead them back to a normal life...Now, this is just way too far out there for me.

I am happy to discuss the issues, but not with someone who cannot be rational and cannot accept that there is room in the party for people with different opinions.

I am not one of those people who thinks everyone should like and support Dean -- he's not for everyone -- but I'd be happy if both the rabid Dean detractors (and supporters as well) could adopt a more live-and-let-live attitude.





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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #91
102. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
RevolutionStartsNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #102
104. How pleasant of you
Edited on Mon Aug-04-03 08:16 PM by Amerikav60
Really, Nick, I thought you were serious about the deprogramming. You posted about it in 2 different threads, and said you had gotten 10,000 people so far to stop supporting Dean. Was that satire? Sorry if it was just a joke. You must understand how I thought you were completely serious, as you do seem to spend a lot of time attacking Dean and making it your mission to turn people against him.

Do you deny that you said those incredibly biased things about Dean, including that he is responsible for the war, and more recently, that his entering politics is probably saving the lives of his former patients? I apologize about the turning people back to lead normal lives, I see now that was just a joke. But the other posts were not.

We disagree about Dean. No big deal. I just don't get how you can't give people ANY credit for having a mind of their own. Yes, there are probably some Dean supporters who are swept along for the ride, but that's going to be true with any popular candidate. I happen to know about Dean and STILL like him. I'm not 12, I'm not uninformed, and I'm not brainwashed.

I also like Kerry, so this whole Dean-v-Kerry thing is a total win-win for me.

But don't call me names (even ***** names), I didn't invite that. Try to be civil and people will give your posts more credence.

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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-02-03 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #80
92. today provides a text book example of his mo
He has two DLC inspired threads and one GOP inspired one. Is this either your or his definition of liberal and progressive?
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #92
96. Can you point me at them? I don't read everything these days
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #96
97. at the time they were on page 1
of this forum. They have since fallen.
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-02-03 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #71
79. Thanks Mairead.
My posts for the most part come either from leberal, Democratic supporting Vermont newspapers. from Comissions Dean himself ordered, from sources like Counterpunch progressives like Alex Cocburn, Liberal's like Norm Solomon, as well as directly from Vermont Democrats who served in the legislature while Dean was in ofice and he was fighting Democrats and Progressives continually to make sure they did not pass progressive laws, while backing bills repuublicans wanted passsed. The only thing he got stuck with was Civil Unions, and Dean didnt want to have to deal with that at all.
I am on an inside track to what is gong to happen soon, but have a signed non-disclosure agreement to not say anything.
Progressives like Badamo, who tried to re-introduce the same progressive tax scheme in 2002, that was introduced by Snellling before he died, adn actually responsible for balancing the budget in 1992, and which Dean roled back when the budget was balanced. Dena threatened to veot it, and then threatened to veto even the increses in the budget to prevent the dismantling of the VHAP program that Dean called for in his budget.

I try to make my research as liberal based as possible, but occiasionally hit a conservative source that I am unaware of. But that is rare.

This "I will contribute a dollar for every anti, Dean thread from MercutioATC has amused me. I am working on my 100th post in Word, ready for transfer. And intent to work my way to between 10 and 20,000 if possible. Money will not win Dean's campaign, as his backing off of dealing with the Health Care crisis immediately will cost him at the VERY LEAST one millionc votes, and possibly as many as ten million, because it was Dean himself who started this focus on the crisis and need, and the argument that the U.S. should be able to do what Dean did.

Mercutio objects to the figures on the unisured in Vermont, but It comes from Vermonts application to the HRSA (Health Resource Services Administration), that co-ordinates grant requests under various medicaid waivers and such):

TOWARD COMPREHENSIVE HEALTH COVERAGE FOR ALL: SUMMARIES OF 20 STATE PLANNING GRANTS FROM THE U.S. HEALTH RESOURCES AND SERVICES ADMINISTRATION

Heather Sacks, Todd Kutyla, and Sharon Silow-Carroll Economic and Social Research Institute November 2002

Support for this research was provided by The Commonwealth Fund. The views presented here are those of the authors and should not be attributed to The Commonwealth Fund or its directors, officers, or staff. This report (#577) is available online only from The Commonwealth Fund’s website at www.cmwf.org.


In September 2000, the Health Resources and Services Administration (HRSA) of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services set up a State Planning Grants (SPG) program to award one-year grants to states for creating comprehensive health insurance coverage plans for all citizens. Eleven states were selected in FY 2000 and nine states in FY 2001 for grants ranging from $800,000 to $1.6 million. The goals of the state grants were to 1) collect data on characteristics of the uninsured; and 2) design plans for providing these populations with access to affordable insurance coverage. Insurance DataAbout 51,390 (8.4 percent) of Vermont’s 608,829 citizens lack health coverage. The uninsured include people at all income levels; 21.6 percent of the uninsured had incomes below FPL; 29.6 percent had incomes 100–200 percent FPL; 22.3 percent had incomes 200–300 percent FPL; and 26.3 percent had incomes greater than 300 percent FPL. More than three-quarters of the uninsured population were employed; 66.5 percent of the uninsured were working full time and 10.5 percent were working 30 hours or less per week.

http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cache:6xtlBGAOlUAJ:www.statecoverage.net/statereports/vt11.pdf+%22Vermont%22+%22HRSA%22+%22%22Act+160%22&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

This is the data from a study from data from a grant proposal in 2002, from Vermont, in an attempt to keep Deans campiagn promise dring the elections of 2000 to provide UNIVERSALHEALTH CARE IN VERMONT by 2002.

Dean supporters absolutely caannot Deal with the truth about Dean so now state that ANY truth about Dean that is placed on DU, will result in them sending a dollar to Deans campign in order to try to enforce a coverup about Dean...Interesting isnt it?

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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-02-03 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #55
77. If you hav to go broke
Edited on Sat Aug-02-03 01:14 PM by Nicholas_J
In order to try to STOP the truth about Dean from coming out, go broke. All of the money in the world could not keep Nixon in office, once the truth came out, all of the money in the world will not keep Dean's campaign afloat, once his record is opened.

Especially when an article like this was published by a comittee appointed by Dean, under his own government during his last term as governor. You make my point. Even Deans own government stated that the state of affair in the Health industry, was screwed up due to Deans handling of the government.

You cannot take the truth, even when it comes from Deans own government.

And the republicans stating that Dean should OPEN is record as governor is a veiled threat. Thats because they are giving him the chance to do so himself, before they pass a law requiring Vermont governors to open their records to the public if they plan to run for higher office, and make it retroactive. This means Bushs records stay closed, but Deans will be opened, for other democrats, and Bush himself.

They are saying "open it willingly, or we will open it for you, and make it look like you are trying to hide something." It is going to be a very amusing fall session in the Washington and Vermont.

I dont care, give all you want to Dean, It doesnt cost me a cent to write the articles, and no matter how much money he has, the right kinnd of scandal will RUIN his campaign. And if he has NOTHING to hide, why not open the record, which WILL beopened shortly. Vermont is under no legal obligation to keep those records closed. Deand did nothing to protect his back by making sure Democrats replaced him. And now those republicans who want Bush for president are going to open those records.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-01-03 12:08 AM
Response to Original message
56. Dean gets lots of donations from people who look like they're
affiliated with the pharmeceutical and healthcare industry. No surprise that he only wants to change in increments the system which creates huge profits for those industries.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-01-03 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #56
57. Show me a way to get single-payer through Congress...
and I might agree. Dean wants to cover as many people as possible as soon as possible. THEN we'll try to make bigger changes.
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-01-03 06:09 AM
Response to Reply #57
62. It's easy: expand Medicare
Everyone has heard of Medicare, there are millions of people who benefit from it today and can testify to the fact it works, and it can be shown to be a very low-overhead, cost-saving system.

It's an easy sell. Why don't you test-market it to your family and friends? Ask them 'if Medicare were to be expanded to cover everyone, so you wouldn't need your current insurance, how would you feel about that?' and see what they say.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-02-03 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #62
89. Medicare isn't exactly single payer
First, it has huge gaps in coverage. No prescription coverage no nursing home coverage. Those are gaping holes.

Second, there are many copays with Medicare. Not only is there a part B premium but there are copays at doctors offices and other places which amount to several hundred to several thousand dollars a year out of pocket.

Third, there are massive limits on hospital stays in Medicare.
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-01-03 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #56
63. Why would he get pharmecutial company money?
He wants to allow generics, imports, etc, and signed a law forcing them to disclose any gifts to doctors worth more than $25.00.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-02-03 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #56
88. I suppose it would be too much to ask for a citation.
I mean smearing isn't fun if you have to actually provide proof.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-02-03 05:08 AM
Response to Original message
70. Wow. Fascinating thread. Thank you DUers. Nice debate!
That was most informative and interesting! Nice debate!
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-02-03 08:24 AM
Response to Original message
72. For all those claiming Dennis hasn't a hope of getting his plan passed
I offer this from Korten's The Post-Corporate World:

In 1997, Dick Falkenbury, a cab driver, and Grant Cogswell, a part-time poet, put forward a ballot measure that promised to relieve Seattle's traffic congestion with a billion-dollar extension of the popular, but short, monrail system that was built for the Seattle Worlds Fair in 1962. Their campaign, which cost an estimated $2000, consisted largely of walking aournd Seattle with a plywood billboard showing a map of their proposed enlargement of the monorail system. Critics dismissed them as silly, naive, and irrlevant. The Seattle Chamber of Commerce called on voters to "send these dreamers and con artists back to the drawing board". Instead, Seattle's citizens gave the measure, which mandates that Seattle city council members will lose their salaries if they don't put the measure into effect, a 53% victory. Thus, two people of modest means inspired the people of seattle to speak their mind about their dream of a more liveable city in a ballot measure that broke all the rules of big-money politics.


If we choose Dennis, we also choose his healthcare plan and all his other proposals. The very fact that we came together to put him in office would be seen as a clear come-to-Jesus call by all the critters whose sole goal is to not be sacked from their wonderful jobs. Because if we can put him into the White House, we can put other people into lesser offices ad libitum.

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polpilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-02-03 09:11 AM
Response to Original message
73. Dean ALWAYS take the path to success and his incremental stage to
medical care is correct. A dedicated m.d. with a proven track record of providing care to his Vermont constituency AND the man who forced Kerry, Gephardt, and others, AFTER 30 years of doing virtually nothing (I know...I know) to FEIGN concern.

Dean '04...A true American statesman
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CWebster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-02-03 12:51 PM
Response to Original message
76. Oh look, another Dean bashing thread!
:crazy:
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George_Bonanza Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-02-03 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #76
83. I'm a firm Kerry supporter
And I would be very hesitant to post an anti-Dean thread, unless Dean was spreading lies himself and it needed a combatant. So I'd appreciate it if your opinion of Kerry and his supporters didn't find convenient scapegoats in some of his renegade supporters. And there are a handful of anti-Kerry posters here too, who call him a "coward" at very turn possible.
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RevolutionStartsNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-02-03 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #83
90. I agree with you George
Most of the Kerry (and Kucinich, and Gephardt, etc.) people on this board DO NOT post anti-Dean threads. In fact, the rational Kerry and Dean supporters actually have a lot in common and share many common views on the issues.

Personally, I wish there was a place on this forum (I thought Politics and Campaigns was supposed to be it) where people could discuss the issues and the positions of the various candidates without fear of being attacked or having the thread hijacked by the obsessives on either side.
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #90
98. Since I'm the one who posted the basenote
I suppose I should clarify something: I don't consider this thread an 'anti-Dean' thread, except insofar as he and his policies are joined at the hip. I think he's probably a nice guy, on some level.

But what I know of his policies ranges from 'leaves me cool' to 'repels me', and I don't think it'd be in the best interests of anyone except him were I to sit here and hold my tongue. Similarly, I don't expect anyone to sit on stuff they find about Kucinich. As DemBones said recently: I don't think Dennis walks on water, I just think he's the best guy on the issues and on the record. So I want to know all the bad stuff as well as the good stuff. I'd think anyone with good sense would feel the same.

The last thing on earth we need next year is a guy who's going to keep on selling us down the river while he tells us it's for our own good. We've had 20 years of that already.
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 06:03 PM
Response to Original message
100. Dean: Promoting American Health
...
For a year now, I have been traveling this country advocating a repeal of Bush's tax cuts so that we can provide universal healthcare and restore fiscal discipline. Many have questioned the political wisdom of challenging the president on politically popular tax cuts.

I believe, however, that given a choice between having health insurance or keeping all of the Bush's tax cuts in place, most Americans will choose health insurance. My plan will cost $88.3 billion -- less than half of the president's tax cut -- with money left over to pay down the deficits run up by this administration.

My plan consists of four major components.

First, and most important, in order to extend health coverage to every uninsured child and young adult up to age 25, we'll redefine and expand two essential federal and state programs -- Medicaid and the State Children's Health Insurance Program. Right now, they only offer coverage to children from lower-income families. Under my plan, we cover all kids and young adults up to age 25 -- middle income as well as lower income. This aspect of my plan will give 11.5 million more kids and young adults access to the healthcare they need.

Second, we'll give a leg up to working families struggling to afford health insurance. Adults earning up to 185% of the poverty level -- $16,613 -- will be eligible for coverage through the already existing Children Health Insurance Program. By doing this, an additional 11.8 million people will have access to the care they need.

Many working families have incomes that put them beyond the help offered by government programs. But this doesn't mean they have viable options for healthcare. We'll establish an affordable health insurance plan people can buy into, providing coverage nearly identical to what members of Congress and federal employees receive.

To cushion the costs, we'll also offer a significant tax credit to those with high premium costs. By offering this help, another 5.5 million adults will have access to care.

Third, we need to recognize that one key to a healthy America is making healthcare affordable to small businesses.We shouldn't turn our back on the employer-based system we have now, but neither should we simply throw money at it. We need to modernize the system so employers will have an option beyond passing rising costs on to workers or bailing out of the system entirely. Fortunately, we have a model of efficient, affordable and user-friendly healthcare coverage: the federal employee health system.

With the plan I've put forth to the American people, we'll organize a system nearly identical to the one federal workers and members of Congress enjoy. And we'll enable all employers with less than 50 workers to join it at rates lower than are currently available to these companies -- provided they insure their work force. I'll also offer employers a deal: The federal government will pick up 70% of COBRA premiums for employees transitioning out of their jobs, but we'll expect employers to pay the cost of extending coverage for an additional two months. These two months are often the difference between workers finding the health coverage they need, or joining the ranks of the uninsured.

Finally, to ensure that the maximum number of American men, women and children have access to healthcare, we must address corporate responsibility. There are many corporations that could provide healthcare to their employees but choose not to. The final element of this plan is a clear, strong message to corporate America that providing health coverage is fundamental to being a good corporate citizen. I look at business tax deductions as part of a compact between American taxpayers and corporate America. We give businesses certain benefits, and expect them to live up to certain responsibilities.
...
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=policy_statement_health

Summary:
The plan will cost an estimated, "$88.3 billion". This is paid for from some of the money saved by repealing Bush's tax cuts.

The Dean proposal expands Medicaid and CHIP to ages 25 and under. CHIP is expanded to adults earning up to "185% of the poverty level" (currently, $16,613).

For the "capitalist" half of the Dean plan: Folks with high health premium costs recived "a significant tax credit" to cushion the costs. The current "employer-based system" in use now will be modernized by upgrading it to the same healthcare coverage that "federal workers and members of Congress" have available to them.

Small buisnesses of less than 50 workers get lower rates than their larger competitors. Employers pick up the tab for 2 months in between jobs, but the costs of the COBRA premiums for those 2 months are subsidized, at 70%, by the federal government for employers. Corporations will receive "business tax deductions" as an incentive for supplying health care to their employees.
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #100
103. That's not as bad as the Clinton mess, but it's far from good
or simple to understand.
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