"Who are these people backing Howard Dean?"

[CMT]

"The rain was coming down and traffic was teh usual aggravating slog. At the California Tortilla restaurant in Rockville, Md., on a patio boasting a view of a suburban parking lot, nearly 70 people gathered around cafe tables with stranger, writing letters to people they didn't know..."

"I'm not some wild-eyed radical or someone who usually gets this involved, but I really feel that I need to be part of a grass-roots effort to put Howard Dean in the White House," Richard Lutz, a 52-year old Silver Spring, Md., linguist, wrote to Anna Houdek of Spillville, Iowa. "We must defeat George Bush before even more damage is done to the America that I know and that I love."

Good article on the types of people who show up at Meetups and why they want Howard Dean as president.

http://www.theunionleader.com/opinion_show.html?article=23427

Who are you? I'm a 39 year old male who works as a patient care coordinator in a hospital. I want Howard Dean because I think he has the best ideas to save this country from Bushism.

[DrFunkenstein]

1. Representative Because They Are Vague

I've noticed that alot of Dean supporters give very foggy reasons for their support, mostly from a gut reaction. There is something to be said for gut reactions, but I wish people would be a little more articulate about why Dean is the man.

[Kahuna]

3. Well, you know.... 'Dean is the *ONLY* candidate attacking bush..'

What a load. :eyes:

Dean has an EXCELLENT! vision for foreign policy. Psst. Who doesn't compared to dumbya?

[CMT]

4. not at all

I know many Dean supporters who are not vauge. They like him becuz 1) he is a figher 2) he has a good record as governor of Vermont 3) they like his plan on health care 4) he was against the war and hasn't backed off of his position. 5) they like the way he speaks his mind. 6)they like his stand on civil liberties 7) they like the idea that the US needs a new foreign policy based on cooperation rather than being the world bully. 8) they like his record on fiscal policy

Well, I could go on but we did have about 30,000 letters last week written to undecided Iowans giving our reasons why we support Howard Dean. How many letters have supporters of the other candidates written in support of their candidate?

[stickdog]

5. Specifically Dean.

Dean is a fighter. Dean is an outsider who hasn't sucked up to Bush like Bush were God.

Dean is listening to and responding to the informed, active Democratic base.

Dean has taken a principled and winning stand on 95% of the issues:

http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=about_issues

[DrFunkenstein]

7. Far Be It For Me To Call That Vague

So what you are saying is specifically that Dean is a fighter, an outsider, and an atheist. And his policies are good, except for 5%.

I made a point of not saying that all Dean supporters based their support on an emotional reaction to his rhetorical style.

I'm not trying to make fun of you or anything, Stickdog, but that was a pretty concise example of what I was talking about.

[stickdog]

14. Do I really have to tell you the 5% I disagree with?

I'd rather have single payer, but I too don't think it has a chance at this moment in time.

I'd like to see defense funding slashed, but campaigning on this would effectively kill the Dems chances in a general election.

I'd like to see a promise to investigate every move Bush has made, but that wouldn't win the election, either.

I'd like to see medical pot legal (hell, all pot), but I too don't think a Presidential candidate could win emphasizing this in his platform.

I'd like to see the entire Patriot Act repealed, but I'm OK with just repealing 75% of it.

I'd like to see more tax relief for the poor at the expense of the rich, but I'm OK with just getting rid of what Bush has done and tightening up inheritance tax loopholes while raising the family business taxfree exemption.

I'd like to see an even greater focus on corporate responsibility, but Dean's platform works for me.

I agree with Dean's approach on everything else I can think of. And every compromise he makes is one I can live with at this point in time.

[UnapologeticLiberal]

6. My reasons for supporting Dean

1) He has demonstrated a lot of political courage. In 2000, he put his whole political career on the line to support the civil unions bill. Some people say he did not go far enough or he only did it because of the Supreme Court ruling, but the bottom line is, he did it, and it is more than probably any other politician in the US has done for the cause of gay rights. I am not gay, but I firmly believe in equal rights, and I admire a politician who is willing to stand up for them, even when it is politically unpopular.

2) He talks to people my age, addresses our issues, and has gone out of his way to recruit college students to be involved in his campaign. Most politicians ignore us, since we don't vote and don't have a lot of money. Because we feel ignored, we don't vote, and it is a pretty vicious cycle that is harmful to the party, which should be thinking not only about winning today but building a new generation of Democrats.

3) The nature of his campaign. While other Democrats are off courting big-money donors, Dean is raising money in small increments from ordinary people like me and building a huge grassroots operation. He has brought in a lot of people who have never before been active in politics, and the people I meet in the campaign are believers, people who are passionate enough to give their soul to the campaign despite how slim our chances are. Being a part of this campaign so far has been one of the coolest experiences ever, and it is so exciting now to see him go from having virtually no chance to being considered a serious contender, because I had a feeling a long time ago that he was going to go a lot farther than anyone expected, and it is cool to see that playing out.

4) He just inspires me, in a way that is hard to explain. I have seen him speak live 4 times now, and have watched him numerous times on C-Span. Every time I see him, I forget about how much the odds are stacked against us and I just feel empowered, like there is hope for beating Bush in 2004 and taking back our country.

I know those things are more stylistic than issue-based, but that is because there is not that much of a difference between most of the Democrats on a lot of issues that are important to me. I'm not like a lot of other Dean supporters who are angry at other Democrats and think that they are sellouts, and I would never base my judgment on their position on a war that will be yesterday's news by November 2004, unless I think that they as president would be eager to start more wars, and I don't think any of the candidates are. I like almost all the candidates and I will support any of them against Bush. I did not even want to get involved in the primaries, but after I saw Dean speak I realized I had to.

But the principal questions I ask are: can the candidate get people fired up and excited to support him, can he beat Bush, and if he is going to be a sacrificial lamb, can he at least inspire the next generation of Democrats so that our party will be the majority in the future? I am not sure about the second one, because I am not sure if any Democrat can beat Bush the way things are going. But I am very sure of the first and third of those questions, and that is a big part of why I support Dean.

I hope that helps.

[DrFunkenstein]

10. I Have To Respect An Emotional Bond With A Public Servant

I think it is a great thing that he does inspire so many people to get involved again, or at least to re-direct their anti-war energy. It felt good going to the anti-war marches, and I understand what you mean. I also applaud Dean for his support of civil unions, and am impressed by his campaign's creative strategies. And as far as inspiration, I must say that I met with Bill Clinton during the 90's, and despite my immense distaste for his triangulations, I came away very energized to fight the good fight.

These are all real issues, particularly Dean's ability to reach out to the disillusioned. For myself, though, I think that this can only be carried so far. After awhile, we have to look at actual policy. We are talking about public servants, after all. And that's where I part company with Dean.

It's not that Dean is a BAD candidate, he is a left-leaning centrist well within my comfort zone. It's just for me, I liked Nader for his reforms, not for his cult of personality. In my dreams, I would want a candidate that embraced Nader's progressive vision without being a, well, a flake.

I honestly feel that if people took the time to look at the issues, they would prefer Kerry. Corporate crime, election reform, media democracy, renewable energy, and so on - the bread and butter of progressive politics - have been a commitment for years for Kerry.

There are people that are consciously willing to ignore the details in favor of the big picture. They think Dean's energy more than compensates for the details. These people I have little problem with - they are being pragmatic in their own minds. It's the people who allow themselves to remain truly ignorant of the details that I am more concerned about. I'd have to put you in the first group, along with many here at DU. My point is not to bash Dean or his supporters, just to get the issues back onto the table.

[stickdog]

16. Well, what the hell is Kerry waiting for? He needs to start campaigning

against Bush now, with authority, on every issue.

Sorry, but so far, his play-it-safe routine has let Dean lap him several times over.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

19. Thanks for the voice of reason, Dr. Funk

This is it for me, at least to some extent: my support for Dean has to do with The Big Picture. I also agree with Kerry on many issues, and I disagree with both Dean and Kerry on some others.

But Dean's whole package is what gets me going. It's not cult of personality, for me -- before I knew who he was I was a bit turned off by his image, he seemed a bit too slick for me. But when I listened to him speak I heard something different than I heard from the others. I have tuned out politicians for so long, dismissing most of them as self-serving and corrupt, but here's one that speaks to me.

But I will be happy enough if Kerry gets the nom, and I will work hard for him. He would make a great president.

[RandomKoolzip]

2. I'm a cook at a crappy restaurant in Nashville.

I don't even make enough to cover my bills every month. I've always been political, but I've never considered giving money to a candidate until Dean came along. I gave him 50 bucks. If you saw my monthly budget, you'd see the sacrifices I've had to make just to give him that little. I really hope he gets the nomination.

[genius]

8. Ignorant or Republicans

Dean seems to be more of a Republican than a Democrat. I know the Repubiicans are eager to see him get the nomination because it will be just like having a Republican run against a Republican. The Republicans can't lose if Dean gets the nomination.

[MercutioATC]

9. Dean is a Centrist Democrat

I'm not ashamed to admit it, so am I. He's a fiscal conservative and a social liberal. I agree with the majority of his positions (I tend to be a little more socially liberal than he on some issues).

He's not a Republican. Not even close. I find it funny that some of his detractors say he's too liberal and some say he's too conservative. To at least 59,727 of us (the last Meetup count) he's just right.


I think that the Repubs have the erroneous assumption that Dean will be easy to beat because he's too liberal. That's why they're paying lip service to his campaign. Do you honestly think that they feel a win by Dean will be "just like having a Republican"?

Vote for whomever speaks to your priorities in the primary. Then, vote for the Democrat in the general. We can win this thing if we all (regardless of individual priorities) work together.

[DrFunkenstein]

11. Not Too Liberal, Just Too Eccentric

Genius always comes up with colorful ways of expressing his dislike of Dean. While I feel Dean is a centrist, he is certainly not to the right of McCain, let alone Bush (who is off the map).

Just wondering: Does Dean plan on balancing the budget by 2008? I know Kerry is committed to working towards a balanced budget, but says it's unrealistic to expect it any time soon. Where's Dean on this?

As for Republican support of Dean, it is not because he is actually liberal, but because he's seems (to them) to be a typical Democrat fruitcake that is too socially "permissive" and weak on national security. Liberal doesn't have much to do with policy to conservatives.

[Teacher4dean04]

13. Dean is very focused on balancing the budget

Vermont is one of the few states not in a fiscal nightmare right now, largely due to his passion for working off of a balanced budget. From perusing his website, I'd even say it's one of his top priorities. I have not seen him give a specific year he would have it balanced by, but after having been the governor for 12 years and having a balanced budget, I feel comfortable in relying that he'd do it as quickly as feasable (sp?).

[Teacher4dean04]

15. Forgot to add...

I am a 33 year old teacher, lifelong Democrat, not a computer geek and I don't own a pair of Berkenstocks.

[He loved Big Brother]

20. Not to mention-

Dean wasn't even required by the Vermont state constitution to balance the budget, but he did it anyway.

[stickdog]

18. Why don't you learn something about Dean?

It might be a helpful starting point for these discussions.

[DrFunkenstein]

21. If You Don't Know Me By Now...

You will never, never know me. Ooooo-oo-oo-ew.

I wasn't saying that Dean is too eccentric. I was telling you what the Republican Guard (and the DLC) are implying in their attacks on Dean. I am quite familiar with Dean's positions on the issues, although I wish he was a little more substantial in the "issues" part of his website. If you haven't guessed, I actually support Dean and think he would make a fine candidate. Obviously, I believe Kerry is more in line with my progressive positions, but that doesn't mean I dislike Dean.

One of my problems with Deanies that base their support on emotional (gut?) reasons is that it often makes it harder for them to see the other candidates as anything but not-Dean. Which I think is dangerous for the party. My hope is that the people with ties to Dean will eventually come over to the Kerry camp because of his progressive politics and foreign policy chops - which I think are good for the party as a whole. That may be after Dean drops out - if he doesn't get the bid, that is - but I hope that these Deanies will not be so zealous as to sit 2004 out or go to a third party.

Although I genuinely think Kucinich is unelectable - making Kerry THE progressive in the race - I don't think that really applies to Dean. The GOP may try to paint him as a liberal fruitcake, but I think people are going to want a real alternative to Bush's far-right antics. I think Kerry represents a greater difference, but even Dean's vocal centrism will make Bush seem the ideologue he is.

[coloradodem]

12. I am supporting Dean...

For all of the reasons articulated by previous poster's but I have one other reason. The thought of Dean being the Dem nominee scares the shit out of Dubaya and Rove, regardless of what they say through the media. I would love to see Dean standing at a podium across from Dubaya at a presidential debate in 2004. Dean will tear him apart. I will obviously support whomever the Dem nominee is even if it's not Dean but, Dean definitely inspires me the most.

[ModerateMiddle]

23. what do you base this on?

You said, "The thought of Dean being the Dem nominee scares the shit out of Dubaya and Rove, regardless of what they say through the media."

What is your basis for asserting this?

[stickdog]

17. Your post title aptly describes the Anybody-But-Dean posters around here.

[GEErnst]

22. Howard Dean, The NRA, and Political Leadership

This is as posted on Google groups for the benefit of the gun rights militants. Search http://groups.google.com/advanced_group_search for "geernst cato levy". The usually hyperactive militants have had very little to say:


The Cato Institute is representing plaintiffs in Parker et al. v. DC Gov. filed in Feb., 2003. Seach Google for "parker heller palmer ambeau lyon". The NRA filed a parallel suit representing
plaintiffs, Seegars et al. v. AG Ashcroft and DC Gov. Search Google for "seegars haile jordan brown hemphill". The NRA then filed to combine the cases. Cato vigorous opposed the combining. Robert Levy, one of the attorneys for the Parker plaintiffs was on G. Gordon Liddy's program Friday, July 18.

] He laid out his views in the Wash Times, 7/22,
"Battle of the Gun Ban,"
http://www.washingtontimes.com/commentary/20030722-093717-6859r.htm

also,
http://washingtontimes.com/national/20030721-103633-5228r.htm ]

He explained that the NRA introduced Seegars with extraneous issues to divert the court away from the pure Second Amendment challenge. When consolidation failed the NRA instigated Sen. Hatch to introduce legislation to remove the DC law. No law. No challenge. The Potowmack Institute has said many times the NRA knows better than anyone that its constitutional goal is ultimately unachievable. It wants to keep any constitutional challenge out of court, but the NRA has no control over the true believers and purists,
http://www.potowmack.org/lobby.html.
The NRA's real game is to defeat progressive politics. Along the way it scams its members for donations to achieve goals it has no intention to pursue. We don't learn what is really at work in the "rabidly antigun" Washington Post, the NRA's most valuable asset,
http://www.potowmack.org/washpost.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A2789-2003Jul16.html?nav=hptop_tb

http://www.nraila.org/NewsCenter.asp?FormMode=Detail&ID=2848

The Potowmack Institute has the motions filed so far and will eventually have them available online. Cato's anarchic arguments go so far as to pervert Federalist Paper No. 46, http://www.potowmack.org/emerappi.html ,
one more time. The purists must think that Federal Judges cannot read the English language. The documents are available from the DC Circuit or through PACER. Total pages so far are almost 100. They can be requested at cost from the Potowmack Institute, [e-mail].

It will be interesting to see what the NRA and the bankrupt Democratic Party do with Howard Dean. The right wing agenda to defeat progressive politics goes so far as to repeal the 40hr work week, http://www.potowmack.org/lopztjf.html. All those working stiff gun owners will eventually have to choose between the consent to be governed and 12 hour days, 6 days a week in sweat shops and coal mines. Dean's appeal for a progressive agenda is national health insurance, the one proposal of the Socialist Party from the early twentieth century still waiting to be imposed. When the Clinton Adm. proposed national health insurance, it was denounced for wanting to impose a "socialist agenda on America". When the Potowmack Institute proposes a national firearms policy,
http://www.potowmack.org/nfp.html ,
roughly resembling the Militia Act of 1792, http://www.potowmack.org/emerappc.html ,
http://www.potowmack.org/milret.html ,
it is denounced for wanting to "impose a socialist agenda on America." Will we see how Dean succeeds in addressing and sorting out the ideological conflict? Vermont elects unabashed socialists to public office and allows conceal carry without a permit.
http://www.bradycampaign.org/press/release.asp?Record=491

] Another perspective:

Democrats Are Playing NRA Roulette
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe- ricker23jul23,1,6562001.story?coll=la-news-comment-opinions

also,
"Rolling Back the Twentieth Century,"
http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20030512&s=greider
Glover Norquist, the very personification of political
cynicism, now runs the NRA. The agenda is political not gun
rights.
http://www.potowmack.org/rightmov.html

Los Angeles Times; opinion
23 July 2003
by Robert A. Ricker

Robert A. Ricker is a lawyer and lobbyist who has
represented such groups as the National Rifle Assn.
and the Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep
and Bear Arms.

Much has been made of the decision by some Senate
Democrats to abandon their political base and
support legislation backed by the National Rifle
Assn. to shield gun makers from lawsuits by crime
victims.

... ]

If Parker proceeds the Potowmac Institute will file an amicus brief which will repeat and update our arguments in Emerson. Neither the Fifth Circuit in Emerson,
http://www.potowmack.org/emeramic.html ,
nor the Ninth in Silveira,
http://www.potowmack.org/silveira.html ,
have addressed the fundamental relationship between citizen and state and the difference between civil society and the State of Nature. We still do not know how many "Patrons of Anarchy" are under oath of public office,
http://www.potowmack.org/2ndtreat.html#94 .

The NRA will not argue for a constitutional right. The Cato Institute does not want amicus briefs filed, at least at the district court level, to corrupt and confuse its purist arguments. That should not be a discouragement. Now is your chance. File your briefs. We want the court to be well informed.

GEErnst
http://www.potowmack.org/index.html

The long reach of the internet:
http://stonerwitch.net/index.php
go to July 14. Some people are getting their minds openned.


Pro-Gun Groups Split on Tactics; Cato Institute, NRA Quarrel Over Challenges to D.C. Law
Washington Post
21 July 2003
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A20215-2003Jul20.html?nav=hptoc_m

Gunning For D.C.
Washington Post; Editorial
21 July 2003
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A20788-2003Jul20.html

Parker et al. v. DC Gov., February 10, 2003
http://www.cato.org/pubs/legalbriefs/gunsuit.pdf

Seegars et al. v. Ashcroft and DC Gov.,
http://www.nraila.org/media/pdfs/dc_case.pdf