Dean's anti-war does not sell except to Activists/young -Its a just war

[papau]

To fight the "Just War - Saddam evil and now gone" - may be spitting into the wind. Process sucked -had impeachable lies - may be better sale - noting that had we known no immenient threat, we could have gone with inspectors and saved lifes. Key is to not say we did a bad thing!

http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGARF4AYPID.html

Centrist Democrats Worry About Dean's Candidacy
By David B. Caruso Associated Press Writer

PHILADELPHIA (AP) - Democratic presidential hopeful Howard Dean's upstart campaign has excited the party's liberal activists, but centrists ...(think) that Dean's opposition to the war in Iraq makes him too liberal for middle America,....is exploiting a "visceral hatred" of George W. Bush among those on the far left which the nation does not share. <snip>


...the harshness of the sniping between Dean's camp and the New Democrats has surprised and upset a few party faithful, and that was evident at the convention. Washington state Rep. Laura Ruderman rose during one question-and-answer session Monday to beg for an end to hostilities. "... it's the kind of eating each other alive that drove Jim Jeffords out of the Republican Party," ....It was a sentiment echoed moments later by Pennsylvania Gov. Ed Rendell, who acknowledged that the Democratic candidates had engaged in some "name-calling" and suggested that they stop criticizing each other.<snip>

"People like his courage. They like the fact that he's been speaking out," said Michigan Gov. Jennifer M. Granholm. But, she added, "I think there are those who would say that it would be very difficult for someone who opposed the war to get elected in my state today."
New Hampshire state Rep. Peter Sullivan said ...Dean has made a splash in college towns and border communities that have attracted young, liberal voters transplanted from other states. But in blue-collar cities such as Manchester, "it's like he's not even there," said Sullivan, who wore a Joe Lieberman button. This, he said, despite Dean's reputation in Vermont as a fiscal conservative who supported the death penalty and rights of gun owners. "I think it's going to be tough for him to move past the 18 to 19 percent he's got right now, even though, when you take away his opposition to the war, he's probably as much a New Democrat as anyone here."

[On the Road]

1. The War May be a Dead Issue by the Conventions

if it's still around, it will likely be a liability for Bush.

Dean didn't run as an antiwar candidate. He stumbled into it. People liked the way he spoke out before anyone else. He'll move back to his core messages as he proceeds.

Dean is not a student candidate. Supporters are Lowell Weicker are not liberal activists.

[DuctapeFatwa]

2. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A54345-2003Jul27.html

"Col. David Hogg, commander of the 2nd Brigade of the 4th Infantry Division, said tougher methods are being used to gather the intelligence. On Wednesday night, he said, his troops picked up the wife and daughter of an Iraqi lieutenant general. They left a note: "If you want your family released, turn yourself in." Such tactics are justified, he said, because, "It's an intelligence operation with detainees, and these people have info."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A54345-2003Jul27.html

[Duder]

3. There is a strong assumption that...

...being against any war is a political liability, but history has shown otherwise.

[papau]

7. When has telling folks they let an unjust war happen gotten votes?

I buy that if Dean treats it as a decision made - now let's get Iraq back on its feet - as well as Afghanistan, and by the way the were better ways to solve the problem, he should have no real problem -

but it has to be "by the way", and not front and center my convictions as it was yesterday.

[LuminousX]

4. War, What is it good for?

By the time the Primaries roll around, people will be asking about their jobs, the economy, and what are we going to do since we are in Iraq. They won't care who supported or did not support the war. Americans are fundamentally pragmatic. Dean says we have to commit ourselves to truly rebuilding Iraq. That is all that matters. We also have a candidate who wants to withdraw from Iraq ASAP (Kucinich) so those are the actual debating points about the war. Nobody will care about a candidate's position on a decision that has already been made.

[revcarol]

12. ou are misleading people on Kucinich's position.

His position, in a nutshell. Turn it over to the UN, the whole ball of wax, the troops, the re-building, the proceeds from the oil, but WE MUST PAY BECAUSE WE BROKE THAT COUNTRY.

NO, he doesn't want to get out and abandon the country to chaos. When the UN comes in with sufficient numbers of PEACEKEEPING troops, then we can get out, or stay in a minor role under UN command.

He is the only candidate that wants the Iraqis to get a fair shake on deciding who gets contracts on their oil and deciding what to do with the money.

AND he is the ONLY ONE addressing the outsourcing of jobs, NAFTA and the WTO in a major way. If the economy is the issue, Kucinich is head and shoulders above the DLC-ers and Dean, who refuse to address issues of corporate corruption, outrageous pay for CEO's, loss of jobs by NAFTA and the WTO.....

[killbotfactory]

5. To quote Dean from back in September...

"He is asking American families to sacrifice their children, and he's got to have something more than, 'This is an evil man,' " Dean said. "There are a lot of evil people running countries around the world; we don't bomb every one of them. We don't ask our children to die over every one of them."

September 18, 2002

[dajabr]

6. Today from ABC's "The Note," Dean to Lieberman:

Dean's response, in part: "We Democrats do have a grand tradition of world leadership exercised by Franklin Roosevelt, Harry Truman through John Kennedy to Bill Clinton. We have fought and won wars and we have managed peace and recovery. Never have we Democrats felt compelled to stand by silently when our country has failed to pursue alternatives short of war. I will continue to speak out against this war — no matter the day-to-day developments — because it is what I believe."

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/politics/TheNote/TheNote.html

(Towards the bottom of the "Lieberman" section)

[DrFunkenstein]

10. This Holds Up

"Those of us who, over the past six months, have expressed deep concerns about this President's management of the crisis, mistreatment of our allies and misconstruction of international law, have never been in doubt about the evil of Saddam Hussein or the necessity of removing his weapons of mass destruction."

But by next year, people are going to want someone with a viable exit strategy, not quips about why we went. It may be a burning issue for the liberally active, but I don't think it is or will be. The dominant narrative now seems to be everyone was misled, but I think they let themselves be.

I just watched Hearts and Minds again. Daniel Ellsberg said (roughly), "It is a tribute to the people that these administrations (Truman through Nixon) felt they had to lie to them about Vietnam. It is no tribute to them that they were so easily fooled."

[dajabr]

11. Dean HAS a post-war Iraq strategy...

He released it 4/9/03: http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5364&news_iv_ctrl=1421

[killbotfactory]

8. When did everyone who opposed this stupid war become an activist or young?

The support for war was never strong to begin with, 1/3rd of the nation opposed it, even when Bush made it inevitable, and about half don't think the war was worth it.

Anyone who keeps dismissing people against the Iraq war as "peacenik" activists or "niave young idealists" need to wake the hell up.

[Cha]

9. I know ...they just like to use convenient labels because

they IMO they have some hidden agenda that I haven't figured out yet.

Why would they be against bona fide Democrats?

Wasn't losing the 2002 elections based on their tactics(bush lite), enough?

Remember, Mary Landrieu when she started going after bush in the general election...that's when she really got some traction!

I'm so sick of these slicker than thou dlcers. democrats/lose/constantly

[JohnKleeb]

13. I am young and opposed just saying

but lemme tell you
My dad who is a proud liberal democrat did oppose and he was in the highest age group to support the war. My mom who works for DoD who I no offense to her I love her dearly but really doesnt understand the world as well as Dad does is really starting to question. My grandparents not members of the liberal wing but not DLC democrats either both opposed the war. When I went to DC last October I saw folks America young and old, white and black, of course I say figrutively too. Me and my dad on the way home on the metro well my dad had a neat little conversation with these College students from New Orleans nice people really showed the unity that the anti war movement has.

[SGrande]

14. Only the activists are stupid enough to keep this thing going

The Rank and File know that we need to try and bury the war and talk about the economy.

And No Im not talking about the DLC, Im talking about mom and pop democrat voters in their 40s.

[Vis Numar]

15. oh yea

Like in 2002? That's what Gep and the others tried to sell, it's a load of crap.

[redwitch]

16. Bury it?

It's still happening- and it looks like it may continue to happen for years. As for the economy, that isn't going away either- all of it will combine to bring this admin down at the next election. So, I guess that make's me stupid.