(Time Magazine) Dean Flops on Patriot Act

[DJcairo]

Thursday, Oct. 30, 2003
Former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean has rarely missed a chance — in debates and smaller forums, as well as on his website — to hammer the Bush administration's handling of civil liberties since the 2001 terrorist attacks. He's even taken other Democrats to task: "Too many in my party voted for the Patriot Act," he said last June in a not-so-veiled jab at some of his opponents in the presidential race. "They believed that it was more important to show bipartisan support for President Bush during a moment of crisis than to stand up for the basic values of our constitution."

But on Sept. 12, 2001, Dean had quite a different reaction. He told the Vermont press corps he believed the terrorist hijackings would "require a re-evaluation of the importance of some of our specific civil liberties. I think there are going to be debates about what can be said where, what can be printed where, what kind of freedom of movement people have and whether it's OK for a policeman to ask for your ID just because you're walking down the street…I think that's a debate that we will have."

http://www.time.com/time/election2004/article/0,18471,535358,00.html

[killbotfactory]

1. How is having a debate about civil liberties in the aftermath of 9/11

The same as supporting the patriot act?

Oh, it isn't.

Dean sure has the establishment running scared.

[Cha]

6. I know....I cancelled my "time" so long ago...

freakin' corporatists.

[Padraig18]

2. The Patriot act wasn'teven a *proposed* law on Sept. 12th, 2001!

And the actual title of the article is "Dean's Law and Order Views
".

Of course, why let facts get in your way? :eyes:

[deutsey]

3. That doesn't matter

he had pre-emptive support of the Patriot Act, right?

:evilfrown:

[Padraig18]

4. These people have no regard for the truth.

Their hypocrisy is amazing! Dean 'waffles', but Kerry merely 'nuances'. yeah, riiiiigggghhhhhttttt.... :eyes:

[annxburns]

5. Dean seems to be under attack lately ...

... and it's because he has been tagged as the front runner. Sigh. The media does this to all our candidates. They did it to Clark when he got in, they will do it to Kerry if he picks up steam, etc etc. They bitch "The dems don't have a clear leader" and then they tear apart whomever looks like the leader.

Pisses me off .....

[Cha]

7. So Dean needs to come out and answer the

"time" shillers, now!

[Padraig18]

8. Welcome to the 'Kerry Zone'

The desparate acts of desparate people working desparately to save a sinking campaign...

[Pez]

9. the media already did it to kerry...

...that's when dean got his chance. whatever; these people are all politicians. they will deal with the campaign "attacks".

keep pluggin, and get out the vote.

dems own 2K4.

[blm]

12. That's why Dean and his supporters attacked Kerry for months

and even after his surgery when he was OFF the campaign trail. Dean is getting back some of what he delivered for 10 months now. Why act as if it is so unexpected?

btw....Dean also brought up the curtailing of civil rights in regard to TIPS in July, 2002 interview on MTP.

[Padraig18]

14. I'm sorry you regard telling the truth about Kerry as an 'attack'. n/t

[blm]

17. You honestly can say Kerry is "Bushlite" when his record

is the closest to Wellstone's of any candidate?

You think Dean was telling the truth when he said the four guys from Congress supported Bush's taxcuts for the wealthiest, when NONE of them voted for it?

[Padraig18]

21. Prove that Wellstone comment.

Would Wellstone have voted FOR the IWR? What version of the 'nuance' are we on THIS week regarding it? :eyes:

[blm]

24. I said record, not one vote.

American Conservative Union Ranking of Dem Canidates
Of course, lower is better. Congressional rankings are 2002, 2001 and lifetime. Numbers indicate the percentage of the time that the canidate voted "conservative". For comparison, Wellstone's rating was 3%.

Dennis Kucinich 2002-0%, 2001-20%, Lifetime-13%

John Kerry 2002-20%, 2001-4%, Lifetime-6%

John Edwards 2002-30%, 2001-16%, Lifetime-15%

Dick Gephardt 2002-8%, 2001-13%, Lifetime-12%

Joe Lieberman 2002-20%, 2001-28%, Lifetime-20%

Bob Graham 2002-20%, 2001-16%, Lifetime-18%


http://www.conservative.org/default.asp

[Padraig18]

25. That one vote BLEW whatever 'Wellstone record' Kerry HAD! n/t

[JohnKleeb]

27. Thats not so

Being against the war has nothing to with your liberalism or conservatism. I think Kerry was totally wrong to vote for IWR. BTW his record is solid other than that, and I think we should give that to him.

[Padraig18]

29. His Patriot Act vote was solid too, huh? n/t

[JohnKleeb]

33. Your candiate didnt vote on that now did he

His voting record is that of a solid liberal democrat. Christ what a day.

[Padraig18]

35. No, my candidate opposed it! n/t

[JohnKleeb]

36. Can I see a link

because what I read seems to be consistent and if it true, it true, I dont care really, you think I hate Wellstone for this, you think I hate Harkin for IWR but I think he repented. Christ I cant judge like this, I am sorry. Funny those Green Kucinich supporters eh, take a clue I am no Green but I admittingly share a lot of their views. I dont like these either. Give me a link please from around the time of the Patriot Act was being voted on that says Howard Dean opposed it, and if he supported, I aint gonna crucify him for it, christ.

[blm]

37. Can you cite where Dean fought against the Patriot Act at the time?

Everything I have seen posted here at DU points to his acceptance throughout most of 2002, even.

[blm]

44. no reply.

.

[killbotfactory]

47. Dean charges: Anti-terrorism measures are eroding rights - Dec. 8, 2001

http://rutlandherald.com/hdean/38802

He praised Sen.Patrick Leahy, D-Vt., chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, for insisting the anti-terrorism legislation passed by Congress earlier this year expire after four years.

“I think Pat Leahy made a great contribution to the country when he insisted all this stuff be sunsetted,” Dean said.

The governor said some of the Bush administration’s pronouncements in its war on terrorism gave him pause.

On Thursday in a hearing before Leahy’s committee Attorney General John Ashcroft said that anyone who opposed the anti-terror measures was aiding terrorists.

“I am very fearful of how fast John Ashcroft is moving in dismantling (constitutional) protec-tions,” Dean said on Friday.

...

“I guess I am keeping an open mind. I am certainly willing to let the president move forward for the short term,” Dean said.

“It’s very important not to let this become permanent.”

That's about as far as he went.

[JohnKleeb]

26. Would he have?

He didnt for the record and he did and I say sadly for the patriot act but does that mean we forget Paul Wellstone's record as a great progressive democrat from the state of Minnesota, Kerry screwed up on IWR imo by saying yes but I dont deny that his vision and records are good. Funny how I should be idealogical pure here, ah its part of me being me, I dont know why. I just think if anyone uses IWR or the Patriot Act as a litmus test and its not the one I use for say but if you do I would support Kucinich who always was the only candiate to say No to both, yes Graham voted no to IWR but he withdrew and he didnt say no to the patriot act. Kudos to all who said no.

[tsipple]

10. And We're Still Having that Debate

We're also still wondering why John Kerry, Richard Gephardt, John Edwards, and Joe Lieberman all voted for the Patriot Act despite the fact that rank-and-file Democrats, including Howard Dean and the other candidates, told them it was a big mistake.

That's OK, though. If Kerry, Gephardt, Edwards, and Lieberman want to discuss the Patriot Act this election, we can do that. It'll be a public service to keep reminding voters over and over again what these politicians did to so quickly undermine decades of civil liberties.

[blm]

22. Can you cite where Dean railed against the Patriot Act before the vote?

.

[JohnKleeb]

11. *confused through out the mist of chaos*

Sigh
Well I guess my idealogical stubborness is why I support the only candiate to vote against the patriot act even if he is as they say unelectable. Hope the mist clears.

[tsipple]

16. No Mist

Both Dennis Kucinich and Howard Dean understood there'd be a debate about civil liberties post-9/11. Both understood that some things law enforcement wanted were defensible, like the ability to get a warrant that covered wiretaps for a particular wireless phone subscriber not phone number.

But Dennis voted against the Patriot Act, and Dean contemporaneously and unambiguously said he would vote against it if he had the opportunity. Kerry, Clark, Edwards, Gephardt, and Lieberman all voted for it.

Them's the facts. No mist. Certainly the Washington politicians running for the nomination would hope to make things misty, because they didn't listen to their constituents and they got that vote horribly wrong. Unfortunately the facts are catching up with them.

[JohnKleeb]

18. I meant the mist of the brawl

I can forgive those who did really, I dont hold it against. Look I am a Kucinich supporter, although I am pissed that Kerry and the others voted Patriot Act and IWR, I do not hate them for it, I look and see their histories are mostly good. Also Clark didnt vote for it, he was a general not a congressperson. Yeah they screwed up big time but I dont ignore the other wise good history of those who did. Kucinich is trying to repeal that horrid piece of shit right now, I think if anyone uses that as a litmus test and I dont but if you do shrug what ever floats your boat should support Kucinich.

[wtmusic]

13. As opposed to Kerry, who has been consistent in his support

of the unconstitutional USA PATRIOT Act...

:eyes:

[JohnKleeb]

15. Actually I hear Kerry is trying to get some stuff out

Thats what I hear. BTW that unelectable candiate of mine introduced legislation in the house recently to repeal it. Sorry for being a smartass but I think if DK works his ass off and gets this repealed and I know he will work hard but knowing the GOP congress it will be hard, but if he does this, I will continuely be a proud kucinich supporter.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JohnKleeb]

23. Yes and its good he realizes he was wrong

Sigh guys
I dont hold it against anyone who did vote for it ok, Ive heard what the bastards did, they basically blackmailed them to vote for it, now on the other hand those who said no are heroes but I have found it in my heart to forgive those who did. At least he wants to atone, I am glad he does. Would you had rather Kerry vote for it and do what lets say Ashcroft is doing, going on a tour defending it. People can atone for their mistakes imo..

[wtmusic]

28. Then those people's supporters shouldn't point out other candidates

supposed 'flops'.

[JohnKleeb]

31. Tell that to DJ not me

Just a middle man.

[Padraig18]

32. Yep!

It's called the 'people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones' concept.

[Nicholas_J]

19. DJCAIRO, you forgot the section wher Dean said:

Dean made it clear early in his tenure that he thought alleged criminals were cut too much slack. "My view is that the justice system is not fair," Dean said in 1991 during his first week as governor. "It bends over backwards to help defendants and is totally unfair to victims and to society as a whole." Robert Appel, former head of the state's public defender system, said he had constant clashes with Dean over funding for the service. According to Appel, Dean said on at least one public occasion that the state should spend less money providing the accused with legal representation, saying that "95% of criminal defendants are guilty anyway." (Carson says the comment was meant as a joke, but Appel counters that even if it was, "the underlying message was pretty clear.")

Which may be one reason why Dean, in 1999, wanted to refuse a $150,000 federal grant to the public defender's office for aiding mentally disabled defendants. "That was unusual, to say the least," says Appel. The state legislature overrode Dean's opposition. Dean spokesman Carson responded that Dean didn't want to create a program that the state couldn't afford to fund if federal money disappeared in the future. But he did not disavow Dean's anti-defendant bent. "This is a governor who was tough on crime and is a big believer in victims' rights," Carson says

http://www.time.com/time/election2004/article/0,18471,535358,00.html


Dean created a dual criminal justice system in Vermont, in which if you were arrested and could afford an attorney, you got off, ot got lighter sentences, but if you were poor, or mentally ill, you got arrested.

As a result, the prison population of Vermont doubled after he got rid of Robert Appel who was regarded as one of the best Defender Generals in the United states and now serves on a number of United Nations committees for human rights, civil rights and womens rights.

Most of them were poor or homeless.

AS an editorial in the Rutland Herald put it:

Appel noted that the public defender didn’t have the money to pay for expert witnesses. Thus, the burden is on the legislative and executive branches to make sure the judiciary has the resources it needs. And the judiciary includes the system as a whole — police, prosecution, defense, and courtroom personnel.

Making the case for adequate funding of the criminal defense system will be one of the principal jobs of the new defender general. Valerio, an experienced criminal defense lawyer and the incoming president of the Vermont Bar Association, will owe his appointment as defender general to Dean. But he will owe it to the people of Vermont to push Dean to include in his budget adequate resources so the state’s public defenders can do their jobs.

Public defenders handle most of the criminal defense work in the state. It is a thankless task in some ways. But one of the important differences between democracies and police states is a fair justice system. Without it, police round up people and throw them in jail as a matter of routine. Law becomes, not a guarantor of justice, but a method of intimidation.

Appel has served the state well by seeking to counter the biases of the governor. Let’s hope Valerio is willing to do the same.

http://rutlandherald.com/Archive/Articles/Article/31792

Dean bases his ideas about the criminal justice system on his personal opinions rather than fact. In all cases those represented by public defenders never see their defender or even know who they are until they go to trial, and even then, they are in contact with their court appointed attorney for no more than five minutes.

Dean engages in personal popular rhetoric about crime and criminal and bases it on emotion rather than fact. However while Appel was
Governor General Vermonts system of public defendse was selected as a model for the poorest African nations:

UVM AND DEFENDER GENERAL HOST AFRICAN JUDGES
IN STUDY OF VERMONT PUBLIC DEFENDER SYSTEM

It is estimated that less than 10 percent of the people
accused of committing a crime in Tanzania, Ethiopia, Uganda and
Zambia receive any type of legal representation to argue their
case before the court. This is due to a variety of factors,
including their very new constitutions that list freedoms
politicians don't yet allow and the scarcity of financial
resources for a legal aid system.
The University of Vermont, in partnership with the Office of
the Defender General, will soon host twelve East Africans who are
interested in changing this situation.
The U.S. Information Agency is funding a $200,000 exchange
of legal experts between East Africa and Vermont. The Public
Defender/Legal Aid Citizen Exchange Program was proposed by Rob
Gordon, associate professor in the UVM Anthropology Department;
Vermont Defender General Robert Appel; and Lauren Kolitch, a
public defender in Chittenden County.
Study of Vermont's justice system, and close work with those
who run it, should help participants from Ethiopia, Uganda,
Tanzania and Zambia begin to develop their own public defender
and legal aid systems.

http://universitycommunications.uvm.edu/newsarchives/d.%20Spring-Summer%201995/UVM%20and%20Defender%20General%20Host%20African%20Judges%20in%20Study%20of%20Vermont%20Publ

Robert Appel was the man who Deal fired for trying to deal with Deans conservaitive and false biases. HE was able to do his job in spite of Denas repeated cuts to public defense and support of police ana prosecutors, and Dean doubled the number of people in Vermont jails in the process, creating the begniings of what the Rutland Herald noted again as :

But one of the important differences between democracies and police states is a fair justice system. Without it, police round up people and throw them in jail as a matter of routine. Law becomes, not a guarantor of justice, but a method of intimidation.


And who suffered most from Deans beleifs:

The poor, the disabled

the homeless.

Dean, the beleiver in the police state.

[tsipple]

30. More Kerry Desperation

Must stink to see John Kerry losing his entitlement to the Democratic nomination.

By the way, just so you know: you can get a jury trial in Vermont for a traffic ticket. Vermont has one of the lowest crime rates in the country, and there's no death penalty. And what was the funding track record for public defense in Vermont during Dean's tenure? Got any numbers?

Looks like someone's being fast and loose with the facts, but why am I not surprised? The Kerry campaign is getting desperate and really has nothing positive to talk about any more.

[wtmusic]

34. I would welcome the day

when DJcairo was fast and loose with any 'facts'.

[tsipple]

38. Sorry I Assumed They Were Facts

I like to give the benefit of the doubt to my fellow DUers, but I concede you are correct that I was overly generous.

[Nicholas_J]

39. Dean and facts:

Still, Dean appears to be striking a chord among activist Democrats who think that only a bare-knuckles street fighter can defeat the incumbent president. Many of those Democrats like Dean's message that the party has lost its ideological edge -- evidenced by the disastrous showing in last November's elections -- and can't regain power without an aggressive campaign against the Republicans.

Moreover, as the lone non-member of Congress among the leading Democrats, Dean is able to tap into a growing populist antipathy against Washington and can fashion himself as a new, dynamic voice.

As Dean becomes a top-tier candidate, however, his casual approach to facts and abusive tactics against his opponents could get him into serious trouble -- and severely damage Vermont's reputation for political civility and intellectual honesty.




http://www.sover.net/~auc/deanbites.htm

[JohnKleeb]

40. Ummm Dean is not the only non top pier candiate not in congress

Clark FYI

[Nicholas_J]

42. That article was from before Clark enterd the race.

the main thrust is that the editorial staff of the Herald in Vermont thinks that Dean is basically a liar.

[Nicholas_J]

41. And it had crime rartes just as low

BEFORE Dean became governor. The FACTS are indiputable. Dena has commented that he beleives that 95 percent of all people arrested are guilty anyway, so the state should not spend money defending them.


Besides when figures are shown that when Dean was governor the rate of people without insurance incresased by as much as ffty percent, all Dean supporters do is provide anecdotal stories abou a person they knew, and claim that everyone knows that the governments figures are wrong without providing proof.

Notice when Deans was hit by Gephardt and Kerry on his medicare statements in 1995, and his cuts to VSCRIPT and other programs in Vermont, his polling numbers dropped by 23 percent.

These are just probing experiments unmtil the big hits on Deans records are made in latee december early january in order to bring his ratings down late in the game and fgive thme no rebound opportunity. Much of the stuff being used is stuff I posted here for months. Now I make sure they get out to the public.

I compare posts on the Dean and Kerry blogs every day, and on Kerrys site, we see dozens of people daily who are abandoning Dean, and reing the fact that they contributed to his campaign.

We see little of that on Deans blogs. One woman had to get Deans campaign to give her back 250 bucks by threatening to sue and get the credit card company to go after them.


Others contributed three or four tmes and are now abandoning Dean.

[Nicholas_J]

43. P.S.

Som more Dean statment, no link as it comes from a Rutland Herald Article older than their online site allow accerss to:

Rutland Herald, Wednesday, July 30, 1997
GOVERNOR’S COURT PICKS STIR CRITICS
By Diane Derby
Vermont Press Bureau


...

Asked if that reflected a “get-tough-on-crime” approach, Dean responded: “I’m looking for someone who is for justice. My beef about the judicial system is that it does not emphasize truth and justice over lawyering. It emphasizes legal technicalities and rights of the defendants and all that.”

Such comments may play well with the general public, but they have sent a chill through the collective spine of lawyers – particularly defense lawyers – around the state.

Throughout his six-year tenure, Dean’s public chiding of the judiciary has led many lawyers to question the doctor-governor’s grasp of constitutional law. In their eyes, Dean views the protections contained in the Bill of Rights as mere “technicalities”.
It is a view that has been bolstered by Dean’s inflammatory remarks – including his remarks that the state’s Supreme Court has repeatedly allowed murders to go free.

“Dean is just ignorant. I don’t think he understands what judges ought to do.” Says Michael Mello, a Vermont Law School professor who teaches advanced courses in constitutional law. “He perceives the Supreme Court as being broken in some way and sees himself on a mission to fix it.”

“That is pure, ignorant, political demagoguery”, Mello charged, “Nonsense on stilts.”

[Octafish]

45. Howard Dean's Constitutional Hang-Up

Howard Dean's Constitutional Hang-Up
Dean Would Rather Execute an Innocent Man, Than Let a Guilty One Walk Free

By JOSH FRANK
Counterpunch

As Governor of Vermont, Howard Dean openly claimed that the legal system unfairly benefited criminal defendants over prosecutors. He even took measures to cut federal grant money aimed at helping mentally disabled defendants--as well as appointing state judges who were willing to undermine the Bill of Rights. In a 1997 interview with the Vermont News Bureau, Howard Dean admitted his desire to expedite the judicial process by using such justices to "quickly convict guilty criminals." He wanted individuals that would deem "common sense more important than legal technicalities." Constitutional protections (legal technicalities) apparently undermine Dean's yearning for speedy trials.

SNIP…

These are not the only examples of Howard Dean's intentions to subdue the Bill of Rights. Shortly after the September 11th attacks Dean was quoted in the Rutland Herald claiming that the United States needs a "re-evaluation of the importance of some of our specific civil liberties."

Later when asked if he thought the Bill of Rights needed to be altered he said, "I think it is unlikely, but I frankly haven't gotten that far I think our freedom is what they find so threatening, our freedom and the power that I think results from that freedom."

So according to Dean since terrorists are after our sought after freedoms, we might consider scathing back certain liberties in order to decrease the threat of future strikes. John Ashcroft must be pleased.

CONTINUED…

http://www.counterpunch.org/frank08122003.html

[killbotfactory]

46. Oh goody, counterpunch again! They hate all democrats!

let's start posting articles from worldnetdaily.com while we're at it!