While Dean skiied in Aspen, Kerry was getting shot at in Vietnam

[DJcairo]

Kerry doesn't need some no-neck from Vermont telling voters that Kerry is all talk and no action. Kerry has been fighting for this country for 35 years. As soldier, state prosecutor, lieutenant governor, 4 term US Senator and Presidential candidate.

Kerry took a bullet for this country while Dean skiied the bumps. I know who I'm voting for.

[Abe Linkman]

1. So, you're suggesting the smart one...

is ____?

While Dean was in medical school, Kerry was_______?

While Rush was doing drugs, someone else was _____?

[DisgustipatedinCA]

2. I didn't know Kerry had been shot

Fill me in on him taking a bullet, if you don't mind.

What's a no-neck, by the way?

[DJcairo]

4. Kerry got a purple heart-that means he was shot at and wounded in battle

In case you didn't know that. I thought his military service record was common knowledge. Just goes to show, all those people who thought Kerry talked about Vietnam too much were just trying to torpedo his candidacy.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

15. OK, but what's the story?

I just hadn't heard anything about him taking a bullet, and since you're very knowledgeable about it, I was wondering what the story was.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

30. We can't say for sure. His medical records are sealed.

I'm sure he was wounded but the seriousness is unknown.

None of his wounds was disabling; he said one cost him two days of service and the other two did not lead to any absence.
http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/061603.shtml


Although:

Kerry's aggressiveness in combat caused a commanding officer to wonder whether he should be given a medal or court-martialed.



His service was honorable and unquestioned.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

35. Thanks for the information n/t

[DJcairo]

33. In fact Kerry got three purple hearts

In one incident, Kerry, while commanding his swift boat down the Mekong Delta started tking fire from shore and sintead of fleeing the scene he turned the boat and drove straight at the Vietcong hiding in the bushes. He was wounded but him and his crew managed to kill the enemy and save themselves in the process. Had he not done this, he very well might have had his boat sunk.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

34. Thank you

I just never knew he had been shot. I'm glad to read he was only out of action for 2 days. I hadn't known about any of this, so thanks for the information.

[demrebel]

16. Kerry should be thankful Dr. Dean was back here studying

so he can help him with his wounds.

Is kerry married to one of those rich repubs we always here slam on here?

Dean vrs Bush, that will bring people out not Bush against another dem clone of bush.

[demrebel]

17. What is with your darwin sign?

I thought most people were against racist on here.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

20. I'll make you a deal

If you can form a complete and coherent sentence, I'll attempt to answer it.

Put another way, what the hell are you talking about?

[JaneQPublic]

43. Kerry killed people in a war he later protested as being unjust...

...while Dean showed up for a Army physical, where they had every opportunity to draft his ass, but didn't.

So rather than go off to Asia to kill people, Dean went to med school and learned to heal people. Gawd, what an evil man he is!!!

[tsipple]

3. Dean Flunked His Induction Physical

However, Dean also lost his brother in Laos.

By the way, Max Cleland is another great American hero.

[DJcairo]

5. Indeed, my sympathies to Dean

But the fact is Kerry is not simply"all talk" as Dean would like to believe, and his attacks on Kerry are simply ludicrous.

[DJcairo]

6. Max Cleland has endorsed Kerry of course.

A hero knows a hero when he sees one.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

28. Dean did not flunk his induction physical

n February of 1970, with the Vietnam War raging, 21-year-old Howard Dean carried a set of X-rays and a letter from a Manhattan orthopedist named Hudson Wilson to Fort Hamilton in Brooklyn, where US military doctors determined that he was not fit for military service because of a back condition called spondylolisthesis.

Dean was classified 1Y, according to military records, meaning he was exempt from service for the duration of the war and free to head to Colorado after his Yale graduation, where he skied at Aspen and poured concrete. Spondylolisthesis is a condition caused by an unfused vertebra. When diagnosed nearly four years earlier, he was cleared to participate in all sports except long-distance running.

<snip>

"The United States government said this is your classification," he said on NBC's "Meet the Press." "I'm not responsible for that. I didn't have anything to do with the decision. That was their choice."

The basis for his classification is difficult to document. The Selective Service System, following standard procedure, destroyed all records in Dean's file save his classification listings. Dean said he did not keep copies of the X-rays or Wilson's letter. Nor did he keep a copy, he said, of the letter he believes he wrote requesting a deferral from military service. His physician, Wilson, is dead.

Dean drew a relatively low lottery number -- 143 out of 300 -- meaning he could have been called up after college, according to Lewis Brodsky, a Selective Service spokesman.

At Yale, Dean did not support the war but was not vocal. He took part in one protest, by his count. He said he was not overly worried about being drafted and said the reason he wrote a letter seeking a military medical exam was to clarify his standing.
http://www.boston.com/news/politics/president/dean/articles/2003/09/21/a_back_condition_wins_dean_a_vietnam_era_draft_deferment?mode=PF

Dean sought out a physical and brought x-rays and a note from a high-priced New York doctor in order to avoid the draft -- I don't blame him -- I probably would have done the same thing. That doesn't make it as admirable as being a war hero and an anti-war hero.

[tsipple]

36. So is there ANY evidence this stuff matters?

Bill Clinton got elected twice and he didn't flunk his physical. (Yes, Dean flunked his physical. No spinning that. He was classified 1Y, unfit for military duty.)

George W. Bush didn't bother to show up for flight duty... in Alabama. And he's got a comfy chair in the Oval Office.

Max Cleland lost some limbs in Vietnam, and he's collecting a federal pension after his Senate defeat in Georgia.

Al Gore served in Vietnam as a press officer. He wasn't front line combat, but he did serve in a war zone.

John Kerry, if you believe Zogby, is more than 2 to 1 down in New Hampshire behind Howard Dean.

It's been an extraordinary run AGAINST Vietnam vets winning elections of late. Where do you go with this argument? I remember plenty of Democrats defending Bill Clinton and saying this stuff doesn't matter. (I was one of them.) It's grand hypocrisy for any Democrats to say it does now.

Voters want to know what you're going to do for them today and tomorrow. Resumes may be interesting and even suggestive, but that's it, fortunately or unfortunately.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

38. Well if we nominate Dean we can't attack Bush for being AWOL.

That is one way it matters. Al Gore could have hit hard with this and he didn't. Of course he didn't have the kind of record Kerry does. Kerry is a fighter though -- witness his race against Weld. He is not someone who is going to allow the playing field to be slanted against him and he is going to hit back. These issues are all in how they are played, and we Democrats have left the gloves on for too long. And actually, what provided the material for the attack in another thread, goes to Kerry's broader depth and strength on this issue -- Kerry is not just a hero who collected his medals and went home -- he went through an experience that scarred him, toughened him, but also outraged him. He opposed the war with an articulate and credible voice that spoke to people who hadn't previously understood why it was wrong. He risked -- and bore -- hostility from other vets who didn't want all the unpleasant truths spoken about. So Kerry's opponents will attack him, Bush will no doubt attack him -- basically for his courage in speaking out. Are they really serious when they accuse JK and all the other veterans like him ? I have to believe these types of attacks can only be an attempt to score cheap political points or satisfy some twisted, petty revenge motive.

[tsipple]

41. My Point Exactly (Re: AWOL Bush)

If Democrats try to attack Bush for being AWOL, regardless of the nominee, Democrats will lose. George W. Bush is now POTUS. Voters heard that argument -- it was well reported -- and they made their decision. (They made a similar decision with Bill Clinton twice, Saxby Chambliss, and lots of other officeholders.)

It's one thing to toss the AWOL stuff to partisan Democrats as some red meat. It's another thing entirely to try to use it in a general election. It ain't going nowhere. It might even backfire if attempted.

If Kerry is a "fighter," he'll have the opportunity to prove it soon... in the Democratic caucuses and primaries. The fact it's (literally) on his resume is nice but certainly not dispositive.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

42. Voters have not heard it.

You've heard it. I've heard it. Everyone here has heard it. But the people who get their news from FOX News haven't. The people who get their news from CNN haven't. I don't remember any attack ads against Bush for being AWOL. That's the only way to hit hard in a campaign and Gore didn't do it.

And Bush is even more vulnerable on this than in 2000. Then everyone gave him the benefit of the doubt. Now, the idea that he is a liar, a fraud, and a phony is not really very radical.

Man I can picture those attack ads now...

[displacedtexan]

7. howard also did some hiking

right before his parents sent him to school in england at age 17. hmmm... i'm sure they didn't know that if you register for the draft while out of the country, they won't call you up.
i knew lots of boys who did this. after you got accepted to college, you could come back home and not worry about being called up. the rich kid's way out.

i didn't know that the deans were republican until i read this:





Family of Origin:
Father - stockbroker
Mother - art appraiser
3 Brothers: Charlie, (deceased)
James, market researcher in Fairfield, CT
William, bond trader in Boston, MA.

High School Attended:
Saint George's Boarding School, Newport, Rhode Island.
At age 17, Dean went to school in England as an exchange student.

Special:
Hiked 250-mile Vermont Long Trail.
At age 15, Dean attended the 1964 Republican National Convention in San Francisco.

Net Worth:
According to Meryl Gordon's article published in 'New York Magazine' on 24 February 2003, 'The Deans have a net worth of $4 million, according to tax returns: He says he received $25,000 from his father at age 21 and made the rest through work, prudent investments, and frugal living.

[VermontDem2004]

9. It says nothing about Dean's parents being republican

But I knew that from a Time Magazina article a few months back. But so what, his parents were republican. I don't recall Clinton taking a bullet for this country, actually Kerry didn't take a bullet for this country, if the bullet went by him it would of likely hit a tree or fall to the ground. The US could've lost the Vietnam war and still be a strong country.

[demrebel]

22. Kerry's wife is a rich repub, who cares

By the way, we did not loose the war. We pulled out and few know this they kept fighting for 2 years before the dictators took over.
No freedom in that country.

[KaraokeKarlton]

8. Who cares?

How do I know that Kerry doesn't have latent PTSD? Many Vietnam Veterans suffer from that. I don't want someone with the potential to be emotionally unstable sitting in the Oval Office.

[VermontDem2004]

10. I don't care

But so many people do, people like to make a big deal Dean dodged the draft but he didn't. They should take it up with the doctor who gave Dean the deferment.

[displacedtexan]

11. no jfk, truman, carter...?

they were all 'potentially unstable' according to your thesis.

[KaraokeKarlton]

14. I was just responding to inanity with inanity

n/t

[Feanorcurufinwe]

19. How do we know that

Doctor Dean hasn't killed any of his patients? What's the statute of limitations on medical malpractice?

[sfecap]

31. How many civillians did Kerry kill? Do we know?

Kerry said. "However, I did take part in free-fire zones, I did take part in harassment and interdiction fire, I did take part in search-and-destroy missions in which the houses of noncombatants were burned to the ground. And all of these acts, I find out later on, are contrary to the Hague and Geneva conventions and to the laws of warfare. So in that sense, anybody who took part in those, if you carry out the application of the Nuremberg Principles, is in fact guilty.

Is there a statute on this?

[no name no slogan]

40. He only actively practiced for a few years

...before he made his move into politics. He started practicing in 1982, and got elected to his first office in what, 1984 or 1986? I don't know the exact date, but I do know he has been a politician longer than he ever practiced medicine.

[KaraokeKarlton]

49. He practiced right up to and including the day Snelling died

In fact, he was examining a patient when he got the call that he was the governor and had to go to Montpelier to be sworn in. And he and Judith opened their practice in 1982. He was a doctor before then. I can probably find all the info, but I am not sure of the year he actually became a doctor off the top of my head. I do, however, KNOW for a fact that he still shared the practice with his wife right up to the day he became governor. The other positions he held were part time, and just about all of Vermont's politicians have other jobs. It's the norm, not the exception. The governor can't do that, but most others can, including the Lt. Governor and state legislature.

[Duder]

12. Saletan pegged it...

'Lately, I've thought about Kerry's service when I watch Howard Dean, the candidate Kerry is trying to overtake. Now, there's a guy who looks like he fought in Vietnam. Dean's words always seem to be holding back an inferno of anger. John McCain was the same way. Kerry is the opposite: He claims to be angry, but you look at him and can't believe it. His body doesn't live up to his words. When Kerry disagrees with you, he makes you feel as though the disagreement is his problem. When Dean disagrees with you, he makes you feel as though it's your problem. I know Kerry fought and Dean didn't. But it's still hard to believe.

Take the test yourself. Call up a friend who hasn't been following the campaign and knows nothing about the candidates. Have your friend watch five minutes of Dean speaking and five minutes of Kerry speaking. Then ask your friend which guy fought in Vietnam. Unless Kerry mentions his war record, I'll bet your friend picks Dean.'

http://slate.msn.com/id/2087839/

[demrebel]

Amen

Dean seem fighting mad and committed. Kerry puts me to sleep.
I really think Dean would make it really interesting if he did not go back to the middle against bush.

I would stress that I am not a lawyer. I am going to not lie and if I lie, I will step down.

They will run to him.

[demrebel]

18. Amen

Dean seem fighting mad and committed. Kerry puts me to sleep.
I really think Dean would make it really interesting if he did not go back to the middle against bush.

I would stress that I am not a lawyer. I am going to not lie and if I lie, I will step down.

They will run to him.

[Cha]

21. "The Dude Abides"!

:toast:

[DisgustipatedinCA]

24. Sometimes, there's a dude.

Sometimes....there's a dude.

Thanks for the memory!

[Cha]

26. I just saw it again last night! I laugh so hard!

[Feanorcurufinwe]

39. In other words, you are saying image is more important than reality.

I don't agree:

[demrebel]

13. So what, I served 3 years in nam

I also supported those that did not go. Viet nam is over, forget it.

[Darth_Ole]

23. Dean got a draft deferrment.

And he even said in his MTP interview that had he been called upon to serve, he would have.

And all this shit about his family being Republican is stupid. As if people believe he still is one. Remember, Hillary Clinton was head of the Young Republicans at her high school. But no one ever mentions that because she's not leading in the presidential polls.

[Cha]

25. "Nam is over"...now it's Iraq we have to deal

with!

[killbotfactory]

27. Kerry was in 'Nam?!

No way!

[LuminousX]

29. Totally Uncalled For

What is the point of this thread? What do you hope to accomplish? How does this enrich the debate?

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

32. Yeah, wasn't Vietnam great?!

No disrespect for Kerry, or his service, just disrespect for you and your lame post.

[RetroLounge]

37. Try educating yourself a little about this...

Then get back to us.

Kerry was fighting for us?

Didn't he vote FOR Bush*'s war?

Oh yeah, he did...

[DrFunkenstein]

44. I Support Kerry Because Of The Depth of His Foreign Policy

I like the fact that he can call out Bush for going AWOL, but I wouldn't consider it his major selling point.

As for Dean, I give him props for being a doctor. The main thing about skiing is that I wish he were a straight shooter on the issue and just say he didn't want to go. I'd be cool with that.

[tedoll78]

45. Well then..

I'm so glad that you have the proof that Dean deliberately acted to avoid the draft. Could you share this proof with the rest of us? Form what I've read on the topic (and I've read much), I see circumstances and leaps to conclusions that are politically convenient for certain candidates, but I don't see hard, cold proof. Care to share?

[DrFunkenstein]

46. Are You Talking To Me?

Cause I don't see anyone else here. If so, I think you probably ought to read my post again.

[tedoll78]

47. Your post..

insinuates that Dean is not a straight shooter on the draft issue. I'd like to see some proof of that.

[drfemoe]

48. During the 70's

I dated a few guys who had been to nam (and a couple through the years) ... think that's why I ended up marrying someone 10 years older .. they all had 'issues' .. sleep with their gun, or one eye open .. and some of the stories would make your heart skip a beat.

That's one thing that worries me so much now about our young people in Iraq and other battlefields .. I've known too many men who got "messed up" and experienced first hand what it's like to try to relate to them .. they never got over it. I'm sure the other wars were almost as bad, but nam was unique in the effect it had on the hearts and minds of a generation of men.

I don't think viet nam service is a PLUS for any presidential candidate.

[Punkingal]

50. I'm locking this thread....

as flamebait.

punkingal, DU moderator