Dean to brave heat, ride RAGBRAI

[dajabr]

Howard Dean will follow today in the tracks of former Arizona Gov. Bruce Babbitt in being one of the few presidential candidates to ride in the Register's Annual Great Bicycle Ride Across Iowa.

Dean, a former Vermont governor and one of nine vying to be the 2004 Democratic presidential nominee, today will ride his bicycle 12 miles from Bloomfield to Troy.

While other campaigns have workers wearing T-shirts in support of their candidate and handing out literature along the ride, Dean is the only candidate who plans to hop on a bike and bear the heat.

"He's actually been asking to ride RAGBRAI since December, and he wanted to ride the whole week," said Sarah Leonard, a spokeswoman for the Dean campaign.

Other campaigns said the ride did not fit into their candidates' schedules. They also said they did not expect many riders to attend Iowa's first-in-the nation presidential caucuses Jan. 19.

More: http://www.dmregister.com/news/stories/c4789004/21834290.html

[meegbear]

1. and the other people aren't braving the heat?

or are the other people worthless and inferior?

[dajabr]

3. The answer is in the article...

"Dean is the only candidate who plans to hop on a bike and bear the heat."

Apparently, there's not a high enough "rate of return" for the other CANDIDATES to participate.

[MrJones]

5. You know what they say...

If you can't bear the heat, get out of the kitchen! :-) :-)

[mastein]

2. Dean on RAGBRAI

I have been on the fence about who to back before the VA vote a couple of weeks after the Iowa Caucuses. I am lucky enough to have spent 8 years of my life in Iowa and had the great honor of attending caucuses in 92 and 96. (for those of you in Primary states, you have no idea of what you are missing) I was among the 4% of Iowans that went for Bill Clinton in 92.

I think Dean has made the right choice by riding in RAGBRAI. Also it shows that he isn't afraid to get in amongst the real people. Something other candidates cannot say. The dismissive tone that others take by saying most of those in RAGBRAI don't vote is just incorrect. My in-laws ride every year, and are very Democratic, as are a large number of the riders, and yes THEY DO VOTE.

One more in the Dean column for me, though I am still riding the fence (at least in a limited way)

[dajabr]

4. Welcome to DU!

:hi:

I think it shows Dean will go the extra mile (no pun intended!) to reach out to people instead of calculating the payoff - he REALLY wants this job!

[Desertrose]

7. Remember...most candidates currently have other jobs...

besides campaigning full time...

Besides...isn't it better to have one candidate at a time be in the limelight there in Iowa...

...now if Dean were to ride that 12 miles in AZ these days...I might give him more credit!

:evilgrin:
(backyard themometer currently reading 100)

Peace
DR

www.kucinich.us

[dajabr]

8. Most were not in Washington on Friday...

In fact, at least 2 others were in Iowa that day.

[blm]

25. You should just be glad that some didn't.

Actually it was quite KIND of Kerry to not pit himself against Dean in this way.
Kerry has been a long distance biker for years. He regularly logged 70 mile rides. This would have been mere exercise for him.

[dajabr]

26. Why would they have to race each other?

Just participating would have been good enough.

[blm]

39. heheh....

because that's what would have been the headline at the end of the day. That's how the media views it. Consider it a good thing that he was on his own for this.

[dajabr]

43. I'd guess I'd be happy for Kerry...

If bike racing or windsurfing were part of the Primary or General Election Process. :eyes:

[blm]

45. don't bother...just

be happy for your guy without dumping on the others for not showing up.

[dajabr]

47. You can thank...

Meegbear in post#1 for sending it in that direction (combined with the quote from Norris in the article which I was happy to ignore).

I would have preferred just talking about Dean riding his bike, but when the pot-shots start right off, well you know... :-)

[Kolesar]

6. Dean started his political career by working for a bike path in Vermont

Dean makes it really hard not to like him.

[Mairead]

9. Very sturdy guy--that kind of riding really takes it out of you

Which means he's been able to be a weightlifter, football guard, linebacker, wrestler, skier, and now a bike rider under grueling conditions.

Yet he couldn't pass his induction physical? How strange.

Sounds to me as though, like Cheney, Smirky McCokespoon, and the other draft-dodging chickenhawk elites, young Mr Dean had 'other priorities'.

[Duder]

10. Not really that strange

Mickey Mantle was classified 4-f due to Osteomyelitis.

[Mairead]

13. Yes, and he later got a transplant when,

because of his completely deteriorated health, he shouldn't even have been on the list. Coincidence?

[Duder]

19. Double standards?

Kucinich said that he was "very disappointed" when he was classified as ineligible for military service because of a heart murmur. "We need to expand the definition of services to one's country," he said. "All service is honorable."

[Mairead]

21. I'm not following -- could you clarify?

[Duder]

22. Seemed self explanatory, but okay...

Obviously not just people with wealth get classified as ineligible for military service and those ineligible can go on to have active lives as proven by Kucinich. So your implications and speculations with regards to Dean without any factual evidence that any strings were pulled are the same as if I were to make wild assumptions as to the real reasons DK's two ex wives couldn't live with him. I could make my implications on a few examples for the causes of divorce. In other words, you are making a smear on an opposing candidate which from a medical basis doesn't hold true. There's countless examples where a college football player with a fused bone in his back plays exceptionally well but might prove to be too risky to be drafted in the NFL. 4-F doesn't mean that a person is completely disabled and cannot compete physically and lead a normal life. While perhaps you don't admire the presidential candidate's participation in this bike ride with Iowans, to suggest that this proves and implies some dishonesty with the army giving a medical deferment several years ago, is petty and reflects badly on your own candidate and his stated views, imo.

[Mairead]

23. Ah, okay, thanks

I think there are some differences.

For one thing, in Mantle's case, the osteo occurred during his school days and was well-documented. The same is true of Kucinich's heart murmur. Moreover, Kucinich's heart murmur ended his participation in school sports, and his only sport since (as far as I'm aware) has been jogging, something prescribed for heart patients.

Again as far as I'm aware--please correct me if you have more information--Dean's diagnosis was of a potential problem with his back. His back had been in good enough shape for him to have participated competitively not merely in one stressful trunk-strength sport but in three, and it has apparently never given him a moment's worry since, but at that moment it was dicey enough to save him from the draft. That's quite a coincidence. I find it a hard one to believe in. Particularly when I think of all the people the draft did take.

As to you speculating on Kucinich's marital record--if you have some evidence based on his behavior, go ahead. I think it could be important.

[babzilla]

30. this might clear things up for you

from the transcript of MTP

Russert: Let me turn to a Boston Globe article about the military service during the Vietnam War as it applies to you and I’ll put it on the screen. “Dean did not serve in the military during the Vietnam War because he received a medical deferment for an unfused vertebra in his back...

Dean: ...let me explain the circumstances of my draft classification. I went to my physical in Ft. Hamilton in Brooklyn, which was a great deal like the scene out of Alice’s Restaurant in terms of the different sizes, shapes, colors, and all kinds of people were there. I was given an examination. I had a previous back problem, which is evidently congenital, which prevented me from doing any sustained running, a problem that I’ve had since then, since that time, which requires that when I get out of the car I often have some pains up and down my leg and back and so forth. But I have been able to exercise at—ry vigorous athletic life except for some things. One of those is long-distance running, which is how the problem came to my attention in the first place. I noticed the pain when I was in high school running track. In any case, the—after the physical, I received a one Y deferment. That’s how the United States government decided that they would use me. One Y deferment means you can only be called in times of national emergency. I didn’t have anything to do with choosing any draft deferment. I didn’t try to get out of the draft. I had a physical. The United States government said this is your classification. I’m not responsible for that. I didn’t have anything to do with the decision. That was their choice.

Russert: A military physical.

Dean: Yeah. I had a military physical. I had a draft induction physical in Ft. Hamilton. I think it was, perhaps, during my senior year. I don’t remember the exact date.

Russert: If called, you would have served?

Dean: Of course.

[Mairead]

32. And that proves exactly what?

Surely you don't expect anyone to take that at face value, do you?

[babzilla]

34. you asked for more information

I merely provided it. He received a 1-Y medical deferment for an unfused vertebra in his back.

"Again as far as I'm aware--please correct me if you have more information--Dean's diagnosis was of a potential problem with his back. His back had been in good enough shape for him to have participated competitively not merely in one stressful trunk-strength sport but in three, and it has apparently never given him a moment's worry since, but at that moment it was dicey enough to save him from the draft. That's quite a coincidence. I find it a hard one to believe in. Particularly when I think of all the people the draft did take.'

What you believe or don't believe is up to you. What are you referring to as coincidental? The fact that the diagnosis fell within the realm of 1-Y deferment? What type of deferment status does a heart murmur fall under? Is that coincidental too, or do you take it at face value?

on edit: replying to post #32 asking and this proves exactly what?

[Mairead]

35. Sorry, my mistake. Thank you.

I appreciate the extra information. I misled myself by focusing only on the part you emphasised.

[babzilla]

36. you are welcome

but I'm still curious.

What are you referring to as coincidental? The fact that the diagnosis fell within the realm of 1-Y deferment? What type of deferment status does a heart murmur fall under? Is that coincidental too, or do you take it at face value?

[Mairead]

49. thanks

Sorry for not responding til now...

By 'coincidence' I meant the timing--he's a very healthy, robust-looking guy (as a comedian recently said, he's the first candidate ever with a neck wider than his head), so I wonder how the docs came to find out about this problem just in time to save him from the draft. It had never stopped him from doing anything he wanted to do, and they don't do spinal xrays at induction physicals, so how did they even find out about it? Particularly when they didn't notice that a then-colleague of mine--who ended up as a Marine in '69!--had both a grade-2 heart murmur and legs of detectably unequal length.

[dsc]

11. It would be nice if you bothered

to research stuff before smearing people. In addition to Mantle there was also Jack Kemp. But more to the point. On MTP, a nationaly known show whose transcripts are widely available, Dean said the following relative to his draft status.

He went to an induction physical in Brooklyn. In case you don't know what that is that is where an ARMY doctor examines you to see if you are fit to serve. The ARMY doctor declared him unfit to serve due to a back problem which makes it tough to run (gee people in war never have to run now do they).

This was stated on a nationally viewed show. This has been discussed on both DU1 and DU2. The transcripts and links have been posted. If you knew this and posted what you did anyhow then you are a smear artist. If you didn't then you are uninformed. In either case you had no business posting that crap.

One last thing. I would be rejected from military service due to my ears. Am I to sit and home and do nothing so that I am not to be smeared by the likes of you?

[Mairead]

14. Bother? It's nae bother at'a.

The ARMY doctor declared him unfit to serve due to a back problem which makes it tough to run (gee people in war never have to run now do they).

But it doesn't make it tough to wrestle, lift weights, or run while playing football? Pull the other one, why don't you--it's got bells on.


This was stated on a nationally viewed show.

What, you mean 'as seen on TV'? 'course it must be true, then, 'cos we all know that anything said on the telly could easily be accepted for a peer-reviewed journal. Dead accurate, the telly is. How could anyone possibly think otherwise.


This has been discussed on both DU1 and DU2. The transcripts and links have been posted. If you knew this and posted what you did anyhow then you are a smear artist. If you didn't then you are uninformed. In either case you had no business posting that crap.

'Crap'? Really? I took the information from the same article that had everyone playing Hearts And Flowers here. You know: the article about how he still mourns his brother, who might or might not have been killed by the commies for spying on them? Or are you trying to tell me that the mourning and killed-by-commies part is The Truth while the wrestling et al. is A Pack Of Lies? Eh?


One last thing. I would be rejected from military service due to my ears. Am I to sit and home and do nothing so that I am not to be smeared by the likes of you?

I have no idea what, if anything, is wrong with your ears. But if you were from a wealthy family and got off a wartime draft on the grounds of poor hearing while in your spare time you flourished as a musician, interpreter, and voice teacher, then I'd certainly wonder how much money had changed hands.

[dsc]

27. again an army doctor found him unfit

not Dean's private physcian. No, not everything on TV his true but given the media's proven interest in trashing Dems don't you think maybe just maybe if Dean were lying one of them would have said so. This is an easily checked thing. Induction physicals are public records.

There is a huge difference between sports and war. If a person goes off to war and doesn't work out his buddies die. If wrestling didn't work out he lost a match. Also doctors and medical equipment are available at high school matches and not in war zones. All of those matter. And jogging is not prescribed for heart patients walking is. I should know my dad has had heart problems since I was in middle school and never has he been told to jog.

Oh and to top it off you are wrong on music too. Being deaf in one ear can actually be a help to a music career. And Beathoven composed Ode to Joy as a deaf man and had been losing his hearing for years before that. Presumedly he would be 1F in this day and age. While I am not a muscian now I was one in high school and college (my problem is fluid build up which affects balance and hearing). I also know two very good musicans who are deaf in one ear. Both were born that way.

[Mairead]

33. You're not a quitter, I'll give you that

No matter how hopeless your position, you're right in there.

[Teacher4dean04]

37. I used to think you had ...

...good arguements for your candidate. But now you're coming off half cocked when facts have been given to you, arguing from a purely emotional state instead of a logical one. Quite disappointing.

[Mairead]

50. Well, I'm sorry you feel that way

but I don't happen to think the facts as we know them support the Dean-is-innocent position. I think they support Dean-dodged-the-draft much better.

[dsc]

46. No I won't quit

Tell stories you like as opposed to the truth about my candidate and I won't let you get away with it. I let that crap happen to Gore as did most everyone and it won't happen this time.

[Mairead]

51. I can't really respect your partisanship

It's the same sort of thing you revile the pro-Smirk people for.

[dsc]

53. My partisanship?

Please point out the falsehoods I told about Kucinich. Go ahead I am waiting.

[Mairead]

54. I think you should check your dictionary

I'm referring to your substitution of bluster for reason. All you can muster in Dean's defence on this issue are the same assertions you'd (rightly!) laugh to scorn if brought out on Smirky's behalf. But instead of thoughtful acknowledgement that your position is very weak, you 'stand by your man' and try to shout down the opposition. Which is your privilege--and his. But I can't respect it.

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dsc]

59. Prove it

There are several big name Republicans with medical deferments. Among them Limbaugh, Kemp, and Buchanan. Find one thread, just one, where I say anything like what you would claim me to say. You made the charge now prove it.

[Mairead]

60. This has degenerated so far that I can't even determine

what you're talking about, now!

[dsc]

66. You claimed

that if a Republican had the same situtation that Dean had with a medical deferment that I would not accept it. I have pointed out not one, not two, but three different Republicans who have medical deferments and have been discussed here. I want you to site one statement where I have done what you said I would do if it were a Republican and not Dean. You said it now prove it.

[Mairead]

71. This is becoming surreal

Please point out where I said that.

[dajabr]

12. Your accusation is baseless.

Dean did not have any strings pulled, nor did he get diagnosed by a "family" doctor. Show up with proof to the contrary and you might get taken seriously.

"I went for the physical. They told me to come back when the country was really in trouble. Well, here I am."

[Mairead]

15. No, not baseless at all. I applied Thoreau's test.

This is not a court of law, and the proof is in the contrast between his behavior before and after the finding of alleged disability. Any guy that could lift weights, wrestle, play rough-contact football, and similar activities had a back that was plenty healthy enough for military service. I suppose metaphorically his back could be said to have been the problem, but physically? No, I don't believe that.

As to his not having had any strings pulled, and the probative value of his not having been examined by a family doctor...puh-leeze. I'm sure Smirk's family would tell you his NG appointment was on the up-and-up, too.

[dajabr]

28. How about applying some facts?

Show proof (not opinion) that he avoided Vietnam by his own doing, or give up making the smear against him.

[Mairead]

31. I've applied the facts.

These are the facts: he happily engaged in 3--not 1, not 2, but 3-- punishing, highly back-stressing sports at school, but escaped the draft because of some alleged-but-ill-defined back problem that never noticeably bothered him before or since.

Those are the facts.

[dajabr]

38. Are you a doctor?

Have you examined Dean's back? because the Army Doctor who examined him deemed him unfit. Those are the facts.

[Mairead]

52. 'You don't have to be a weatherman to know which way the wind is blowing'

And your statement doesn't represent the facts, it represents an official record. Just like Smirk's honorable discharge reflects an official record.

What we appear to know for sure is that he did a lot of very robust, hard-on-the-back sports at school, but avoided being drafted on the grounds of a congenital back problem. You can interpret that any way you like, but to me it doesn't look good.

[tedoll78]

16. I'll straighten you out on this right here and now.

The goverment medical exam determined that he could *possibly* have problems with his back if they were to send him into combat. Thus, it was their policy - NOT HIS - that he was not medically elgible to enlist. The problem with his back was possible - not definite.

I love how Dean detractors take only part of the story and sling, sling, sling the mud. He's such an bad, bad man for offering himself to our country and then being turned-away.. Shame on him for living his life after that! Shame! </s>

You've just been smacked-down..

[Mairead]

17. I'm still waiting

All you've said is that we should have faith that government functionaries are incorruptable and that the wealthy never get a pass.

Sorry, I have better sense than to believe that.

[LuminousX]

77. I think you have to prove the corruption

instead of assuming it.

[Mairead]

80. Really? Why isn't that bothering anyone about Smirk, Cheney, et al?

I don't see anyone around here using that high standard on those guys. Why should there be a different standard for anyone else? Because you guys like Dean? That's a terrible reason.

[polpilot]

18. There are those who are unimpressed with fighting and killing other

humans in illegal wars. I'm in that group and know that the conscientious objectors, canadian draft dodgers, and other Americans are equally as 'brave' as the war participates.

Americans have been socially ingrained to believe that being incarcerated as a prisoner of war or following others into a war is 'patriotic'. Other names have been assigned to these 'defenders of the government actions' including the name 'royalists'. The outsiders were then known as the 'American revolutionists'.

Dean '04

[Mairead]

20. It probably depends on the motive, though, don't you think?

I mean, Smirk dodged the draft...and as we all know much too well, it wasn't based on any principled concern for life. It was all about his psychopathic sense of entitlement and privilege.

Absent other evidence, I'd have to look at Dr Dean's willingness to kill (tacit support for the death penalty, expressed willingness to attack Iraq after a 60-day countdown, etc) and conclude that his apparent draft-dodging wasn't motivated by anything but narrow self-interest either, and that he is another wealthy, elite chickenhawk. Not a Smirk or Cheney, by any means, but not desirable, either.

[blm]

24. It was great of Dean to lead protests against the Vietnam war.

And then to bravely speak out at protest rallies against the Iraq war. A real, brave revolutionary.

Oops...you mean he DIDN'T protest Vietnam? That was Kerry?
Oops...you mean he DIDN'T speak at Iraq war protests? That was Kucinich?

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

29. "It was great of Kerry to lead protests against the Iraq War."

Oops...you mean he DIDN'T protest the Iraq War policy? That happened months later when the War was less politically expedient?



"It was great when Kerry made that speech in front of the Senate lambasting Shrub for not making the UN Security Council "show it's cards."

Oops...you mean he DID'NT make that speech? That happened months later when the War was less politically expedient?

[blm]

40. Dean's bad back was the subject, and what he chose

to do with it. He is not the fountain of brave nobilty that SBNA of his supporters purport. There is a season. Dean actually failed both...considering what he COULD have done compared to what he chose to do.

Didn't Dean say that he never doubted that Saddam needed to be disarmed? Where was HIS news conference saying any of those things you demand of Kerry? Where was HIS speech in front of the many antiwar rallies around the country? The REAL antiwar candidate made the time...didn't he? While Dean collected the antiwar $$$$$$$$.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

41. I've got nothing against Kucinich. (I presume the real anti-war candidate)

Big difference between disarmament and war, blm. Process is everything.

I agree that Dean's anti-war speeches were not at rallies but in front of his campaign stops.

I'm not aware of any news conferences that Dean has made.

I am aware, however, of a vote to give Shrub unencumbered power to declare war on Iraq. (Please indicate to me where in the IWR that this is not so. Pretty please)

You're right. Kucinich made the moral stand against war, voted NAY, and should rightfully be regarded as "the" anti-war candidate. How'd Kerry vote again? I see Dean as somewhere in-between DK and JK on this issue.

Kucinich put his money where his mouth is. Kerry put his mouth where his money is. Or something like that.

:hi:

[blm]

42. What did Bush want going in

and what did Bush get?

Bush wanted no UN involvement, no further weapons inspections, no show of proof, and the right to expand the war into Syria and Iran at his own discretion. Please show me the blank check.

[MercutioATC]

48. ...and that's exactly what he got, thanks to our weak Congress...

Bush has no U.N. involvement

Bush has no further weapons inspections

Bush needs show no proof of anything

Bush has established that he can make war wherever he wants, so he CAN expand the war into Syria and Iran whenever he wishes. Were public opinion different, I don't doubt he would.

The point is that Congress did nothing to make even the slightest protest to this. I call that a "blank check".

[blm]

56. That's not true...you're exaggerating for effect.

That might work with the uninformed, but, the facts themselves cannot be changed. Bush was forced back to the UN and to provide more evidence and Hans Blix DID go back in with a weapons inspections team. Bushj cannot invade Iran and Syria at his own discretion.

If you want to buy/sell the Rove spin that Congress caved to the mighty Bush and gave him a blank check ...suit yourself. It doesn't match with the congressional record, though, does it?

[MercutioATC]

61. No, I'm being pragmatic...what has this legislation actually DONE?

I understand the legal ramifications, but show me the practical effects. Show me how our elected representatives are using the resolution to keep the administration in line. Show me why voting FOR it was better than making a symbolic vote AGAINST it and telling the country why it was garbage legislation.

...just show me what the war resolution has actually DONE...

[blm]

64. Bush isn't in Syria or Iran...

and the exaggerations he made because of the evidence he NEEDED to produce are causing him problems now, and the UN is being made more relevant by the hour. Instead of overseeing the UN's demise, Bush's incompetence is proving how necessary and relevant the UN is.

[MercutioATC]

65. And the resolution did all that?????

Public opinion did that, not the resolution. Do you honestly think that an increasing number of people are questioning Bush about the war because of the resolution? Do you honestly think that it's the resolution that's keeping Bush from going to war with Iran or Syria?

I'm not saying that the resolution gave Bush powers that he didn't have. I AM saying that it accomplished NOTHING in a practical sense.

[blm]

72. Go back and read the floor speeches from Oct...

Kerry specifically states that Syria and Iran are off limits. Most of the American people had no idea that Syria and Iran were on the table. Hell, some people here at DU don't even realize it now.

[MercutioATC]

78. But Congress doesn't have the power to limit the President in that way

I don't care WHAT Kerry said, I want to know what gives Congress the power to limit the President's ability to move on Syria and Iran. Maybe the support resolution doesn't include Syria and Iran, but we've seen how serious Bush is about compliance with Iraq.

Again...the resolution serves no PRACTICAL use.

[blm]

91. The support came with side promises

beyond the resolution. Clinton and Kerry both emphasized them in their floor speeches and are in the congressional record with no refutation from the White House. They said he'd be held to those promises. You think Kerry and Clinton will keep quiet? They both are on record calling for independent investigation. And Kerry has called for the UN and NATO to take over in Iraq with the US supplyinng support for real peacekeeping.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

69. Uh...

Bush wanted no UN involvement, weapons inspections, no show of proof...

Is UN involved in Iraq now? No. Inspections were killed after a short time. Proof? C'mon.

As for focusing the res. to Iraq only. I agree. That was the only good thing to come from it.

[blm]

74. This was last fall and Bush did GO to the UN

weapons inspectors DID go in, and Bush had to show proof to the UN.

Now, of course, he's in some trouble for overreaching on all of his evidence, which he WOULDN'T have had to do if he hadn't been required. Smirk about it if you want, RIF....but, Bush looks bad now because of that overreaching, and his credibility with the American people FINALLY has been considerably punctured.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

90. So that was the plan?

Yeah, he looks bad but I don't think it's because of the Congressmen who voted for the IWR. He looks bad because there was nothing there to support the vote in the first place.

[w4rma]

55. Dean on the 1-Y deferment that was given to him

Dean: First of all, let me say that there’s only one person who’s contending for the Democratic nominee for president who did serve in the military, nomination for president, and then let me explain the circumstances of my draft classification. I went to my physical in Ft. Hamilton in Brooklyn, which was a great deal like the scene out of Alice’s Restaurant in terms of the different sizes, shapes, colors, and all kinds of people were there. I was given an examination. I had a previous back problem, which is evidently congenital, which prevented me from doing any sustained running, a problem that I’ve had since then, since that time, which requires that when I get out of the car I often have some pains up and down my leg and back and so forth. But I have been able to exercise at—ry vigorous athletic life except for some things. One of those is long-distance running, which is how the problem came to my attention in the first place. I noticed the pain when I was in high school running track. In any case, the—after the physical, I received a one Y deferment. That’s how the United States government decided that they would use me. One Y deferment means you can only be called in times of national emergency. I didn’t have anything to do with choosing any draft deferment. I didn’t try to get out of the draft. I had a physical. The United States government said this is your classification. I’m not responsible for that. I didn’t have anything to do with the decision. That was their choice.

Russert: A military physical.

Dean: Yeah. I had a military physical. I had a draft induction physical in Ft. Hamilton. I think it was, perhaps, during my senior year. I don’t remember the exact date.

Russert: If called, you would have served?

Dean: Of course.
http://www.msnbc.com/news/912159.asp

[Mairead]

62. Nicely spun, which is what anyone would expect, of course, but

I'd like to know exactly how it came to light during that physical, particularly in light of the fact that they don't do spinal xrays and, as I mentioned in another response, they managed to draft someone --for the Marines, no less-- who had a medium-grade heart murmur and legs of discernably unequal length.

How did they find out about it?

[MercutioATC]

63. You DO realize that you have ZERO proof for your allegation, right?

Show me something that shows that Dean's deferrment was anything other than what he claims and I'll listen. To say that "other people with more serious problems were drafted" is NOT proof of anything.

Webster on "spin":

: to evolve, express, or fabricate by processes of mind or imagination <spin a yarn>

Note the "by process of mind or imagination" part of the definition. As you have no proof of wrongdoing, aren't you "fabricating by process of mind or imagination"?

THAT'S spin....

[Mairead]

67. There's zero 'proof' about Smirk's NG service, either

All we have is circumstantial evidence.

But as Thoreau reminded us, that can be very powerful. We're quite willing -even happy!- to reject Smirk's claims about his NG service but we're not willing to reject Dean's story about his exemption from the draft? Why not?

Fold Dean's athletic career together with the unlikelihood of his alleged back problem being revealed by a normal induction physical, and what do we have? What I think we have is a guy who dodged the draft and is now blowing smoke about it.

[MercutioATC]

68. You don't try very hard, do you? Documentation of AWOL Bush:

http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/document.htm

[Mairead]

70. So? That's not *proof*

That's circumstantial evidence, nothing more. Why do you preferentially believe it?

[MercutioATC]

79. I cite actual documents and you cite random comparisons with other

cases and YOUR arguement is more compelling?

I don't think we have the same definition of "logical arguement".

[Mairead]

81. Your documents don't show anything solid, that's more or less the point

Your argument reminds me of that cop in the film Witness. Have you ever watched it? The press conference near the end when the woman reporter asks 'do you think he could be innocent?' and the cop laughs scornfully and says 'no he's not innocent! He was convicted in a court of law, he's guilty!' Obviously the cop has a very narrow and bureaucratic view of what 'guilty' means.

[MercutioATC]

83. Nice anecdote, but did you read anything on the site?

http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/

As a disclaimer, I'm not really fixated on the "AWOL Bush" thing.

Out of curiosity, how do you respond to LizW's post below about a similar situation that she's familiar with?

[Mairead]

84. Yes, I did. And I found at least one egregiously mislabeled

Did you catch it too?

As for how I responded to Liz -- take a look.

[MercutioATC]

87. What does one mislabeling have to do with anything?

The documents are there. The conclusions based on the documents seem to be consistent with what the documents say. I don't see the conflict. YOU'RE the one who brought this Bush issue into the conversation.

...which has absolutely nothing to do with Dean's deferrment.

How do you justify accusing somebody of lies when you have absolutely no documentation, no factual support of any kind, for your arguement?

[Mairead]

88. Point me out the document that cinches it, would you?

Perhaps I missed it. Because all I saw was that he allegedly moved to Alabama and was administratively grounded, along with some Major, for not doing his flight physical. After which he got an honorable discharge.

So where's the part I missed?

[LizW]

75. I find it surprising that anyone doubts this

since the same thing happened to my husband. He tried to enlist in the military after high school and was rejected because he had a congenital back abnormality. It was discovered during the military physical. He was told that he had an "extra" vertebra in his back. I don't think x-rays were done.

He was shocked because he had NEVER had any back pain at all. He had played high school basketball and lifted weights, and worked on construction sites in the summer. The military doctor told him there was nothing he could do, that he must automatically reject anyone with this condition.

Since learning this almost 30 years ago, my husband has run marathons, lifted weights, done yoga, built houses, and ridden century bike rides.

Because of his experience, I don't find it hard to believe that Dean has not suffered any disability from his back condition.

[Mairead]

82. How was it discovered? I shouldn't think they count them.

[MercutioATC]

85. That's the best you can do?

Liz cites personal knowledge of a similar situation to Dean's and all you can do is question the procedural details?

[Mairead]

89. Why does my asking a question bother you?

[dajabr]

44. Back on topic: Here's some pics...

Scroll down to see RAGBRAI pics:

http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/000782.html#more

[Egnever]

58. shameless bump

Positive dean thread!

[quinnox]

73. Wow, how heroic

Dean actually rode a bike under the hot sun, this is something to be proud of. Yes, indeed, no other candidate can compare with this act of heroism. I imagine his skiing during Vietnam was heroic too, skiing can be very dangerous.

[dajabr]

76. see post #3 n/t

[indigo32]

86. that post says a lot more about you

than it does about Dean or the original poster