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goodhue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 03:48 PM
Original message
debate time not fair

How Many Minutes Each Candidate Received

For Immediate Release: October 10, 2003

CNN's Democratic presidential candidates debate last night was held with the stated intention of providing the candidates equal time.

According to the Hotline (National Journal), here are the results:

Candidate Amount Of Talk Time During the Debate

Dean 14 min 07 seconds

Kerry 12 min 31 seconds

Clark 10 min 36 seconds

Gephardt 10 min 02 seconds

Lieberman 9 min 26 seconds

Braun 8 min 39 seconds

Sharpton 8 min 28 seconds

Edwards 8 min 00 seconds

Kucinich 5 min 09 seconds
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 03:49 PM
Response to Original message
1. You know that gap is amazing between Edwards who spoke the 2nd least
and DK who spoke the least. No offense to Edwards what so ever.
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eyesroll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
2. Only 5:09 for DK? Wow.
Edited on Fri Oct-10-03 03:51 PM by eyesroll
To be fair, debaters are entitled to a rebuttal if they're criticized by name by another candidate. Dean, Clark and Kerry (at least) had rebuttal time; there could be others. DK, CMB, Edwards, et. al., didn't get attacked that much.

Still, either DK just answered quickly or there was a definite, perhaps intentional imbalance.

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diamondsoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #2
15. See my response to reply #4 downthread-
On at least one occasion, Dean and Kerry were brought up by the Moderator asking the question and then given time to rebut that mention. That was completely WRONG, and particularly since John Edwards never criticized either one for their background.(The question they got the rebuttal for)

The more I look at the transcript the more convinced I am there was some serious bias happening there. Even the transcript makes some applause look as if it's for one candidate when it was actually a response to the previous one speaking.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. The funny thing about rebutting Edwards's biography, too, is that...
...it's not a rebuttable issue. What are they going to say? His biography is a lie? It's not like, "X said this about Medicare" and then X gets to clarify what he said. Kerry and Dean did the only thing they could do with that rebuttal...they just talked about themselves, which, I'm sure, is something the people on the bottom half of that list would have loved to do. It was just a gift to Dean and Kerry, and little else.

But, like you say, the most important issue here is that Edwards wasn't really attacking anyone else, except in a sense that is so tenuous that it's barely rebuttable.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
3. Completely unfair.
CNN wasn't interested in issues, they were interested in prompting intraparty controversy.
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Having only read (not viewed) the debate
I would have to agree. They were looking to make a spectacle. Sadly they were the spectacle themselves.

Remember when the idea that a journalist him/herself would become the story was repellent to journalists? Oh how I long for those days.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. *under breath* bastards
I havent viewed it yet. I long for those days too salin, how the world has changed huh.
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diamondsoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #7
20. Don't bother John, unless you really
want to hear his answer to the audience member on the subject of hatred for America and the candidates "hearts"...Dennis was the only one who put his hand up to answer that one at first, and it was a perfect question for him.

Aside from that it was kind of depressing.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Thanks di
It always is depressing.
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Sean Reynolds Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 03:52 PM
Response to Original message
4. I think Dean got more time because he was attacked......
Edited on Fri Oct-10-03 03:53 PM by Sean Reynolds
And the candidates can refute the attack. Kerry, Gep, Kucinich ALL attacked Dean at one point in the debate, in which they went to Dean for his reply.

Kucinich, Edwards, Sharpton, Lieberman, Gephardt, all weren't really attacked thus they didn't get the time to rebut it.

Though I do agree, the time is NOT fair.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Sean could have a point but on Gephardt
He got 10 mins. Something doesnt smell right and my nose is up to it.
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Sean Reynolds Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. Well maybe CNN likes Gep's 'one-liners'.
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diamondsoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #4
12. Actually Clark made a general(no pun intended)
statement about those in Washington not showing any leadership which Kucinich SHOULD have been allowed a rebuttal for, but wasn't. Dean and Kerry were specifically mentioned by the mods then given rebuttals which is manufacturing attacks to give them time, imo. The whole thing was a giant circle-jerk for the mods with little chance for the candidates to present themselves in any semblance of equality.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #4
16. By doing that, they reward attacking. These candidates need air time
more than anything, and the last (Fox) debate and this one are telling the candidates, "if you stir it up with Dean, we're going to give you time on air to go round and round with him in the debate." It's a bargain they're making which is meant to sabotage the candidates. But time is more valuable than gold to these candidates. If you knew that you'd get an extra minute in the next debate to expound on your recent dust-up, would you take it?

It's a deal with the devil, isn't it?
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-11-03 03:13 AM
Response to Reply #4
26. The question from Jeff Greenfield about FDR and JFK having

come from wealth and therefore Senator Edwards, why are your modest origins of interest? was made an excuse for giving Dean and Kerry extra time by Judy Woodruff mentioning them. Edwards didn't say anything that either Dean or Kerry needed to rebut.

The format was poor and the execution of it was sloppy.

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Sean Reynolds Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-11-03 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. You know this how?
Did Judy tell you this herself?
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 04:06 PM
Response to Original message
8. Fair? maybe not
But is it a coincidence that the candidates who got the most time are also the ones doing the best in the polls?

It's a positive feedback loop.
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. aka a filter
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. and a major cause for this
:puke:
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 07:00 PM
Response to Original message
13. If I had to make a list of biggest threat to AOL-TW hegemony to smallest
threat to AOL-TW hegemony, if the candidate were president, it would probably look exactly like this list. Coincidence?
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #13
19. While I agree with you on Edwards, AP, I think that
you give Gov. Dean too little credit:


{Guy in the audience: “Give ’em hell, Howard!”}

Harry Truman used to say, {when} people used to say, “Give ’em hell, Harry,” he’d say, “I don’t give them hell, I just tell the truth and Republicans think it’s hell.” We need a balanced budget in this country so we’re going to have jobs in America again to invest in America. No Republican president has balanced the budget in 34 years in this country. If you want to trust the federal government with your hard-earned money, you had better vote for a Democrat, because the Republicans can’t handle money. You know, the president’s given a lot of our tax dollars away to big corporations, but I think we better change our policy, because those corporations take our jobs elsewhere. What we need in this country is an investment policy for small businesses. Small businesses don’t pay as well as big businesses, their fringe benefits aren’t as good, but they stay in their own community. We need jobs in America. We need to invest in America. Three trillion dollars. Can you imagine, if we could have taken some of that money, to rebuild our roads and our bridges, and our schools, and broadband telecommunications in the most rural parts of America so they can have information jobs as well, and invest in renewable energy and rebuilding the grid, so we can put people to work, and save the environment, and save our national security? We can do better than this. We need jobs, Mr. President, not empty promises and $3 trillion of our tax money going to your friends who are writing you those $2,000 checks to finance your campaign. We can do better than that.

http://www.thestranger.com/2003-08-28/dean_speech.html


Governor Dean, about those high earners, the nonpartisan Center on Budget and Policy Priorities has suggested using revenue from the estate tax as a progressive way to help bolster Social Security. Should wealthy Americans be contributing more to Social Security?

MR. DEAN: What wealthy Americans should be doing is paying their fair share of the payroll tax. Social Security cannot survive -- (scattered applause) -- on its present track. And the solution to that is simply to make wage-earners above $85,000 subject to the payroll tax, and that will cure the Social Security ills, if we can change presidents.

Now, you asked about pensions. A few days ago we were in San Francisco talking to the United Food & Commercial Workers. (Scattered cheers.) A gentleman over here named Larry Allen, who is a produce clerk at Wal-Mart in Henderson, Texas, took two days of his vacation to come to San Francisco for the UFCW forum. When he went back, he was fired for violating the no-solicitation clause.

If you want to protect pensions, the way to do that is to organize. And if you want to organize at places like Wal-Mart, we'd better have card check. We'd better ban mandatory compulsory meetings. We'd better fire the National Labor Relations Board, because that's how you protect working people in this country. (Scattered applause.)

And we ought to have independent pension funds that are no longer controlled by corporations. It would solve two problems. First of all, major corporations going out the door would not be raiding the pension funds in order to try to keep their company afloat. That money doesn't belong to the corporations. It belongs to the people in whose trust it was set aside.

And secondly, it would contribute to portable pensions so that if you move from job to job to job, you still get your pension. You don't have to worry about vesting anymore. We need complete pension reform in this country, and we need to start by making unions strong enough to demand it.

http://www.aflcio.org/issuespolitics/politics/candidates_forumtranscript.cfm

Guest Post by Howard Dean

The post below is from Governor Howard Dean. You can check out the crossposting and commentary at www.blogforamerica.com and read more about Howard Dean at www.deanforamerica.com. Thanks!-- Matt, Zephyr and Nicco, Dean Internet Team

posted by { Zephyr Teachout } on { Jul 14 03 at 3:58 PM } to { presidential politics } { 31 comments }

It’s been a busy day, but it’s great to blog here on Larry Lessig’s blog.

I’ll be writing all week, but if there’s a day I can’t make it, Joe Trippi, my campaign manager, will fill in for me. Thank you Professor Lessig for inviting me.

The Internet might soon be the last place where open dialogue occurs. One of the most dangerous things that has happened in the past few years is the deregulation of media ownership rules that began in 1996. Michael Powell and the Bush FCC are continuing that assault today (see the June 2nd ruling).

The danger of relaxing media ownership rules became clear to me when I saw what happened with the Dixie Chicks. But there’s an even bigger danger in the future, on the Internet. The FCC recently ruled that cable and phone based broadband providers be classified as information rather than telecommunications services. This is the first step in a process that could allow Internet providers to arbitrarily limit the content that users can access. The phone and cable industries could have the power to discriminate against content that they don’t control or-- even worse-- simply don’t like.

The media conglomerates now dominate almost half of the markets around the country, meaning Americans get less independent and frequently less dependable news, views and information. James Madison and Thomas Jefferson spoke of the fear that economic power would one day try to seize political power. No consolidated economic power has more opportunity to do this than the consolidated power of media.

posted by { Howard Dean } on { Jul 14 03 at 3:26 PM } to { } { 198 comments }
http://www.lessig.org/blog/archives/2003_07.shtml
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. His antipathy to a discussion of progressive taxation, his language
about cleaning up the mess of the tax code, his Wall St background, his balanced budgets at all cost, his insistence on rotating his candidacy around things other than middle class opportunity, his record with IBM/taxes/dismantling rail lines(OK, that one's very nuanced), his statement at Philadelphia fund raiser that he couldn't give back the middle class tax cuts because he'd be accused of helping the upper middle class, his talk about Medicare, his relishing of the notion that he's a fiscal conservative, the odd preponderance of donations from AOL-TW employees, his mother's comment about people discovering that he isn't really a liberal all make me worry that he's not really on the same page as I am on the economic/budget issues which I think better be at the center of the Democratic message.

Just to address some of the the stuff above: notice that he links taxes to exporting jobs. Even if corporations didn't export jobs, the way they pay taxes would still be a huge problem. I think he does this often. The only time you hear him talk about corporate tax is when it's linked to jobs, like, if they didn't export jobs, he wouldn't have a problem with the taxes half of it.

As for balanced budgets, Hoover balanced budgets. On the other hand, Clinton didn't balance budgets. He brought in surpluses and tried to invest the surplus in ways that would create more social wealth. You wouldn't have that with Dean.

Pensions...that's a fine position, but it's not exactly going out on a limb. Same with his statements about the FCC.
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-11-03 03:04 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. You nailed it, AP. Dean's obsession with balancing budgets

concerns me. It's a nice little story that he threatened to take money away from programs that help the elderly and thus forced recalcitrant Vermont legislators to pass the cigarette tax he wanted to balance the budget. But what would he have done if the legislators had told him to shove it, they weren't passing his tax? That's what I want to know. Would Howard have penalized the elderly in Vermont just to have a neatly balanced budget?

If he should become president, Congress would be aware of his tactics. They'd know about that and they'd know about his bragging once that he vetoed several bills just because he thought the legislators were "getting too big for their britches." A president who tries to show Congress that he's the boss will get his ass handed to him.
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no name no slogan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-11-03 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. Me three-- take care of people first, balance budgets next
That one was main issue that turned me off of Dean. Anybody with any familiarity with Keynesian economics recognizes that sometimes the government needs to go into debt to stimulate the economy. Roosevelt knew this, and instituted a slew of programs to get America back to work. If the choice is between keeping people from starving and a balanced budget, I say help the people first-- the money WILL come later, once the economy is up again.

This was pretty common economic thinking up until Reagan and the whackos from the University of Chicago (Mitlon Freidman, Arthur Laffer, etc.) took over. Alan Greenspan's Monitorist philosophy at the Fed didn't help much, either.

I love this quote of yours: A president who tries to show Congress that he's the boss will get his ass handed to him.

For all the talk about how we should elect a governor because s/he has experience working with a legislature, the facts don't necessarily back this up.

Look at Carter and Clinton, for two very good examples. Carter came into DC, thinking he could treat congress like the Georgia statehouse, and alienated the Dem leadership. He had one helluva time trying to get his agenda passed, which ultimately helped him lose in 1980.

Clinton 1992-1994 is the classic case. A new young president, with no DC experience, comes in with a sympathetic congress in both houses, and fails miserably to pass his agenda. He fails so bad that his performance affects the off-year congressional elections, and his party loses control of BOTH houses of congress.

Another governor president-elect, "outsider" or not, is going to have the same problem. Not everything that comes from DC is bad-- after all, it had to come from somewhere else before it came from DC, right? The idea combination is somebody w/ DC and large-scale executive experience, which is yet another reason why I support KUCINICH! :)


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union_maid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 07:00 PM
Response to Original message
14. I'm amazed by these numbers
I just shows that time does not fly when you're not having fun. It seemed like it was mostly Lieberman while it was going on, to me.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. Yeah I could've sworn
Lieberman talked for like a whole hour.
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BushGone04 Donating Member (158 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. LOVE the autosig
I'd never heard of Tryo until I was in Paris this past summer- saw them live. What an incredible show.
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genius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-11-03 12:13 AM
Response to Original message
24. WE call that unfair. Dennis and Kerry won according to the audience
despite their time allotments. The next debates need to be fair. Are we going to let the Republican press pick our presidential candidate?
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-11-03 03:48 AM
Response to Reply #24
27. I hope that Americans as a whole will wake up and not let the

"liberal" (HA!) media tell them who to vote for. Obviously, the "liberal" media got Bush* a lot of votes in 2000, when the pro-Bush, anti-Gore bias was ridiculous, like nothing I've ever seen before, and the "liberal" media just helped California elect a muscleheaded governor who can't pronounce the name of the state.

The "liberal" media has shown all through this campaign that they like Howard Dean and Joe Lieberman but don't like Dennis Kucinich. I'd say they'd prefer Dean or Lieberman to win, but think they might be able to work with Edwards, Kerry, or Gephardt. Kucinich, Braun, and Sharpton scare them so they marginalize them and tell the audience how "unelectable" they are.

Kucinich/ Edwards or Edwards/ Kucinich might be just the ticket, assuming DK can pull Edwards more to the left.

Footnote:
I just checked an anti-Edwards site which charges that "he voted with the Democrats 94% of the time in 2000" as if that were a shocking thing, a Dem voting with his party most of the time. They think he should be more like Zell Miller, less like Ted Kennedy. Maybe DK won't have to pull too hard on Edwards -- some NC folks think he's already too liberal! :shrug:
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-11-03 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. "he voted with the Democrats 94% of the time in 2000"
Well, DB, considering that the Democrats have hardly voted with the (trad) Democrats in recent years, maybe that makes Edwards 'no better than he oughta be'.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-11-03 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. Edwards votes the opposite of his (Republican) counterpart
more than any set of senators other than the senators from SC.

Usually states have interests which cross party lines which means that Dems and Repubs from the same state will have similar voting records.

Not Edwards (and Byrd). Those two are very liberal considering the states the represent AND in an absolute sense.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-11-03 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. He does a good job
I have him second on my list now.
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-11-03 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. I was more criticising the Dems than Edwards, really
Though his cozying up to the DLC puts me off him, which is a pity.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-11-03 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. He like all has some flaws
but I think we gotta give him that he fights the corporations good, is pretty liberal. Hes not my first choice but hes not that bad.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-11-03 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. What are you talking about, Miared? That verges on fiction.
Edited on Sat Oct-11-03 05:59 PM by AP
On NPR, David Broder said that Edwards is not popular with the DLC because he has voted against free trade a couple times in an effort to protect NC labor.

On what do you base your opinion?
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-13-03 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #35
36. "On what do you base your opinion?"
Hearsay, really -- I'm overjoyed if it's not true! Doesn't he largely support such gems as NAFTA and the WTO, though? I certainly can't find anything on his site about them (though I also can't get to the 'more' so perhaps it's there).
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diamondsoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-13-03 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #36
37. IIRC, he's not as strongly opposed to them as Dennis (but then who is?)
but he does think we need to act on the problems they cause workers. How exactly, I'm not sure. Unfortunately I think he's one of those who still believes they are "fixable". Who knows, maybe some more time on the trail and in debates with Kucinich will change his mind! ;)

I like the guy quite a bit in spite of him being a little more right than Kucinich, purely because I'm convinced he cares about the people more than the bid for the Presidency, or winning. I'm not so convinced of that with most of the others.
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genius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-13-03 12:26 PM
Response to Original message
38. The debate was covered in Episode 51 of Cowardly Tom and Bully
George. The kids who put this togethere seemed to really understand the essence of the debate and what Judy Woodruff is all about. It's at http://mhull.rupa.com
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serryjw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-13-03 08:57 PM
Response to Original message
39. WATCH the debate on c-span...
All the debates and Iowa town meetings are on c-span if you don't have cable.......LIKE ME!
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