Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Clark: "Israel has the right to strike preemtively."

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Politics/Campaigns Donate to DU
 
sfecap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-03 08:14 PM
Original message
Clark: "Israel has the right to strike preemtively."
"The obligation..."

Interesting statement in light of the recent attacks in Syria and Lebanon.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-03 08:17 PM
Response to Original message
1. He said Israel had the right to defend himself
read the UN Nation Charter, that is what he said.

he did not say isreal has the right to attack pre-emptively.

I think the General knwos the difference between self defense
and preemtive strikes. You obviously, with all respect, do not.

For the record Israel and any other nation has the right to defend
itself when attacked... (which by the way means the Syrians
have a right, if tehy chose to do that, to defend themselves right
now, and they are by taking it to the UN)

that said, he also said that he woudl work very hard to get both sides on the road to peace... I suspect that he would do what is
needed and where you and I cannot see, at least initially... in
a smoked filled room
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sfecap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-03 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Sorry, but you are wrong.
He used the word "preemtively".

It was quite plain. That is EXACTLY the word he used.

Watch it again.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-13-03 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #4
51. sfecap, You Are So Wrong It's Embarrasing!
Edited on Mon Oct-13-03 05:37 PM by cryingshame
Pre-emptive strikes are most certainly Legal according to International Law and ANY candidate who would not pre-emptively strike a plane that they had solid intelligence indicating that it was carrying a nuke would be UNFIT TO GOVERN.

The word is pre-emptive STRIKE. It is NOT pre-emptive war.

If you know someone is entering your borders with WMD, you have the Right and OBLIGATION to take them out.

The reason what Junior did was so dangerous, is because he lied about the INTELLIGENCE when making his case.

Furthermore, he INVADED a sovereign nation with U.S. troops. This is radically different than pre-emptively STRIKING one specific target you know is threatening your country.

Hopefully, I've used small enough words for you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Larkspur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 08:41 AM
Response to Reply #1
48. The UN Charter only allows pre-emptive strike when the threat is
imminent, such as when the Arab armies had gathered on Israel's borders in 1967.

Taking pot shots in Arab countries is an invitation to start World War III.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
burr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-13-03 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #1
52. anymore "defensive" strikes on other countries and we will have WWIII.
I hope you're not calling Israel's assault on Syria a defense move. But what can Syria do, if they strike back they can always be nuked...but again Israel must defend itself!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mhr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-03 08:18 PM
Response to Original message
2. PNACer in Disguise Following in Bush's Footsteps
eom
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-03 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #2
33. Is Carl Levin a PNACer too?
Sen. Carl Levin, D-Mich., said Israel had a right to go after its attackers where they are being trained.

http://www.napanews.com/templates/index.cfm?template=story_full&id=FFEA755B-A8E3-47CC-BBFE-A5F587A82715
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 02:10 AM
Response to Reply #33
38. Carl Levin is an AIPAC (insert whatever word you want)
Edited on Tue Oct-07-03 02:11 AM by Tinoire
at $93,029, he is the third highest recipient of Pro-Israel PAC Funds for 2002.

His career total is the highest one of both the House and Senate- $657,887!

http://www.wrmea.com/archives/june2003/0306036.html
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 08:52 AM
Response to Reply #38
49. It doen't list the names of any PACs
It just uses the vague label of "Pro-Israel" PACs.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 05:31 AM
Response to Reply #2
41. The one candidate DENOUNCING PNAC
This
was being discussed as part of a five-year campaign plan, he said, and
there were a total of seven countries, beginning with Iraq, then Syria,
Lebanon, Libya, Iran, Somalia, and Sudan. So, I thought, this is what
they mean when they talk about “draining the swamp.” It was evidence of
the Cold War approach: Terrorism must have a “state sponsor,” and it
would be much more effective to attack a state than to chase after
individuals, nebulous organizations, and shadowy associations.
http://www.msnbc.com/news/969671.asp?0bl=-0

He did it last night and continuoisly - PNAC-ers attacked him already. When are you going o drop this BS? I listened to the townhall too. I hate lies.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DemCam Donating Member (911 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 07:37 AM
Response to Reply #2
45. Help me out here...
I keep reading this comment and can't for the life of me figure out who this benefits and why it would be so.

Would you folks please elaborate for me?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bozola Donating Member (992 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-03 08:19 PM
Response to Original message
3. Do you have the full quote?


Disclaimer: Clark is not my primary choice for Prez.


It's fair and proper to show the FULL quote, in context, with the appropriate links.

Thank you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sfecap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-03 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. I'm watching it live...
As soon as there is a transcript I'm sure it will get posted.

He was quite clear.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bozola Donating Member (992 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-03 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. fair enough
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Meshuga Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-03 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. Not fair at all...
not fair until we get a full transcript.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sfecap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-03 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #12
20. Whatever...
n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bowens43 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-03 08:20 PM
Response to Original message
5. Do you have a cite for this?
If true, it would be devastating.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sfecap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-03 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. He just said it live at the Harkin Town Meeting.
It's on CSPAN now. It will be replayed later tonight.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-03 08:23 PM
Response to Original message
8. He is a Democrat and that is the position of the party

It is also the position of the Republican party, for what it's worth.

It is the only position possible for any candidate who is serious about getting corporate money and winning an election.

It is not a policy that is in the best interest of ordinary Israelis or ordinary Americans.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-03 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #8
31. Corporations are prohibited from donating money to federal capaigns
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
davhill Donating Member (854 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-03 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Wink, wink
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-03 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #32
36. Not sure what you mean by that
Do you have any evidence that candidates for federal office are recieveing donations from corporations?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SWPAdem Donating Member (951 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-03 08:32 PM
Response to Original message
10. What he actually said
He did use the word "pre-emptive" in this context: if you know that someone is massed on your border and is ready to attack you, you have the right and obligation to protect your people by a attacking pre-emptively. He has said this before at a NH Town Hall meeting. He is relating it to SELF DEFENSE, not PNAC wet dreams.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-03 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. Yes, that's exactly what he said. And he did mean it in the area of self-
defense. Nothing in the man's history, or in this remark, can be construed to mean that you can attack a sovereign nation because of some glorified vision of world dominance, like what happened in Iraq.

Regardless, I have no problem with his military record or the fact that he fought in Kosovo. I would have a BIG problem if he had lost.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sfecap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-03 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. The * administration has a policy of preemtive strikes, too.
They claim it's in the defense of the US.

If Clark supports Israel's right, I would assume he supports the Wolfowitz/Bush/Cheney/Rice policy, too.

Right?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SWPAdem Donating Member (951 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-03 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #19
24. you know what they say about assumptions, don't you?
n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bread and Circus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 06:59 AM
Response to Reply #19
44. You are being inflammatory and...
ignorant of the fact of what "pre-emptive"
strike means.

You are using the "Bush" definition of the word.

The "Clark" definition and also the definition
held by the UN suggests that "pre-emptive attacks" are attacks
used to thwart a real imminent threat.

I will give you a hyperbolic example so you may understand:
Let's say an opposing country had 1,000 subs all around our
borders with nukes aimed at your town and the town of
everyone you love -- family, friends, etc. The President
had two choices...1. wait to be attacked and once all the nukes
went off and decimated your family then we would retaliate
or 2. pre-emptively take the first blow and sink all the
subs so that the nukes were not fired. #2 is the appropriate
answer according to the UN, common sense, and anyone who loves
their family.

In other words, it's striking first in self defense. It is part
of sanctioned international law. My example is way extreme but
there are real applications in the real world.

Frankly, if people can't see the very plain to see and real
difference between Bush's false definition and Clark's real
definition, I can understand why we have Bush in office.
People need to start putting there thinking caps on for
peet's sake.

But sfecap, I know you are not trying to decide what's
fact from fantasy. You aim to subvert any support for
Clark whatsoever on this board with any tactic you can --
whether that means quoting out of context, using false
definitions for arguments sake, or just plain being mean.
It's disgraceful.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 07:53 AM
Response to Reply #44
46. sfecap being inflammatory? No way!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-03 08:32 PM
Response to Original message
11. AIPAC's position...no different from Dean's.
What's your point?

What candidate promised Sharon PERSONALLY he'd give billions more than Bush offered for military defense while keeping Palestine demilitarized? Dean.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dobak Donating Member (808 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-03 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. okay now..
I support Clark, but I also like Dean

Where is some proof that Dean told Sharon, "Personally", that he would give them Billions $$$
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-03 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #13
28. Here's a link
the former Vermont governor declared that, while the United States should become more engaged, he did not have any fundamental objections with President George W. Bush’s policies...

When asked by the Jewish newspaper Forward late last year as to whether he supported APN’s perspective, Governor Dean replied "No, my view is closer to AIPAC's view."..

He also rejects calls by APN and other liberal Zionist groups that Israel’s requested $12 billion loan guarantee be linked to an Israeli freeze on constructing additional illegal settlements on confiscated Palestinian land, arguing that such aid should instead be unconditional...

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0226-04.htm
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-03 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #13
29. It was during his visit with Sharon in Israel.
Edited on Mon Oct-06-03 09:45 PM by blm
I'll try to track down the links, but, I believe Dr. Funkenstein and Tinoire have posted them several times already. Here's this for now.

http://www.muslimwakeup.com/mainarchive/000119.html

June 22, 2003
US Elections 2004
Howard Dean: Sharon's Man?


By Ahmed Nassef

>>>>>

And when asked whether his views are closer to the dovish Americans for Peace Now (APN) or the right wing, Sharon-supporting American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC), he stated unequivocally in an interview with the Jewish weekly The Forward, "My view is closer to AIPAC's view."

"At one time the Peace Now view was important, but now Israel is under enormous pressure. We have to stop terrorism before peace negotiations," he said.

Similarly, Dean's official campaign position on solving the Palestinian Israeli problem is that "terrorism against Israel must end," but there is no mention of the Israeli violence that has resulted in over 2,391 deaths since September 2000.

Last December, Dean told the Jerusalem Post that he unequivocally supported $8 Billion in US loan guarantees for Israel. "I believe that by providing Israel with the loan guarantees...the US will be advancing its own interest," he said. His unconditional support for the loan package, in addition to $4 Billion in outright grants, went further than even some of the most pro-Israel elements in the Bush administration, like Paul Wolfowitz, who wanted to at least include some vague restrictions like pushing Israel to curtail new settlements and accept a timetable to establish a Palestinian state.

>>>>>>
But Dean's alignment with AIPAC and their right-wing politics goes much deeper. Last year, he named Steven Grossman, a former AIPAC head, as his campaign's chief fundraiser. Soon after, he flew to Israel on an AIPAC-sponsored junket.

And in a telling statement about whether a President Dean would act any differently toward Iran than the Bush neocons, Dean also told The Forward, "The United States has to... take a much harder line on Iran and Saudi Arabia because they're funding terrorism."

In fact, Dean thinks President Bush is way too soft on Iran. In a March appearance on CBS' Face The Nation, Dean even claimed that " is beholden to the Saudis and the Iranians," something that would certainly come as a surprise to the current regime leaders in Iran who've been labeled as part of the "axis of evil" by the current US president.

Dean even left open the possibility of preemptive strikes against that country in that interview, adding that "we have to be very, very careful of Iran."

>>>>>>>

and one more:

------------------
"'I do not think that as long as Yasser Arafat is president there will be peace,' said Dean in a telephone interview from Tel Aviv.

"'I am convinced there are Palestinians who want to do the right thing, who believe peace can be achieved, who believe in the Palestinian state, as I do,' he said. 'My assessment also is that terrorism is an enormous problem here and no peace is going to be made as long as the terrorism is going on.'

"Dean met in Jerusalem with Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon as well as with a representative of the Palestinians and with Martin Indyk, who was a former U.S. ambassador to Israel, and Dennis Ross, who was President Clinton's top Mideast envoy."

http://rutlandherald.nybor.com/News/State/Story/57095.html

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-03 08:38 PM
Response to Original message
14. Don't give a crap who says Pre-emptive strike is Correct! Won't get My
VOTE! NO WAY!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Josh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-03 08:39 PM
Response to Original message
15. Yes, as in preemptive self-defense - it's under the UN charter
- if a country stations troops on your borders in a preparation for attack, you don't have to wait until they fire their first mortars. You can attack them first.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sfecap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-03 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. So the US "preemptive" attack on Iraq...
...was just fine?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SWPAdem Donating Member (951 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-03 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. Did Iraq have troops on our border?
Clark has spoken out on the war and asked for a criminal investigation into the misuse of intelligence...but don't let facts and/or logic get in the way of your personal vendetta.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sfecap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-03 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. Were there any Syrian troops on Israel's border two days ago?
n/t

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SWPAdem Donating Member (951 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-03 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. No, but you were speaking in relation to Iraq
Don't change the issue.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sfecap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-03 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. I'm not changing the issue, you are.
If it quite OK for Israel to preemtively attack other soverign nations in the ME, according to the General, it must be OK for us to do it.

Or is he waffling on this?

Does he support peemtive strikes by anybody?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SWPAdem Donating Member (951 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-03 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. Here's a quote from Kerry
"From this perspective, it's clear that we need more than a one-dimensional war on terror. Of course we need to hunt down and destroy those who are plotting mass murder against Americans and innocent people from Africa to Asia to Europe. We must drain the swamps of terrorists; but you don't have a prayer of doing so if you leave the poisoned sources to gather and flow again."

Apparently, he supports pre-emptive strikes...and he voted for the attacks against Afghanistan and Iraq, did he not?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Josh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 05:38 AM
Response to Reply #17
42. No, it wasn't -
precisely because it WASN'T in self-defense. No one ever proved that Iraq was going to attack the United States or was going to try or was going to help people or try to help people who HAD and WANTED TO.

Israel knows Syria is harbouring and helping terrorists (like Islamic Jihad) attack their country, and that's what makes it self-defense, just like when Clinton bombed Afghanistan in 1998.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SWPAdem Donating Member (951 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-03 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Thanks...I thought that the UN charter covered it
n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sfecap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-03 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #15
22. He said nothing about troops on borders.
He simply said that Israel had the right (and obligation) to preemtively attack others.

The same doctrine as the * administration has.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SWPAdem Donating Member (951 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-03 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. YES HE DID.
Edited on Mon Oct-06-03 09:16 PM by SWPAdem
He used Iowa as an example and said if you knew that someone outside the state was going to attack Iowa, Iowans would have the right to attack first in self defense.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-03 09:53 PM
Response to Original message
34. Debating Thursday, maybe they'll bring it up (in context).
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LizW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-03 09:57 PM
Response to Original message
35. Clark said in an interview in August:
"if we're under threat, the President has always had the right to strike first, pre-emptively, meeting the conditions that I specified. And every President should have that right."

The conditions Clark mentioned earlier in the interview were that the threat is significant, it is imminent, and there is no alternative but to use force.

This standard for pre-emptive use of military force sounds fine, except that it is the same one held by Bush*. We all know what happens if you get an administration that is hell-bent on war. They just lie about the threat, and claim they have exhausted all other means -- and bombs away.

It is interesting to note that in this same interview, Clark said "regional destabilization" in Kosovo met this standard.

http://draftclark2004.com/news_detail.asp?nid=106

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 05:16 AM
Response to Reply #35
40. " They just lie about the threat"
Yes, as Stalin did about the Finns, and Hitler did about the Polaks. They do a little theater as a fig leaf, and then attack.

That's why we need to get behind Dennis, folks. If we ever want the insanity to stop, we need someone like Dennis to do the stopping. He's not in bed with the rape-and-pillagers, so he doesn't have to repeat their damned self-exculpating lies. His money and support comes from us, not them. If we want the invading and killing and destroying to stop, then Dennis or Al are our only hopes, maybe CMB.

Stop and ask yourself Florence Reese's question from the Harlan County union battles of the '30s: Which Side Are You On?

Come all of you good workers
Good news to you I'll tell
Of how that good old union
Has come in here to dwell

(Chorus)
Which side are you on?
Which side are you on?
Which side are you on?
Which side are you on?

They say in Harlan County
There are no neutrals there
You'll either be a union man
Or a thug for J.H. Blair

Oh, workers can you stand it?
Oh, tell me how you can
Will you be a lousy scab
Or will you be a man?

Don't scab for the bosses
Don't listen to their lies
Us poor folks haven't got a chance
Unless we organize
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:28 AM
Response to Original message
37. We Need An Honest Broker
Dean traveled to Israel on a trip sponsored by AIPAC. After meeting with Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, Dean stated: “I do not think that as long as Yasser Arafat is president there will be peace." Before leaving, Sharon asked if Dean would support requests for new loan guarantees to Israel. Dean “promised him he would.”

http://www.aaiusa.org/countdown/c120602.htm

Last December, Dean told the Jerusalem Post that he unequivocally supported $8 Billion in US loan guarantees for Israel. "I believe that by providing Israel with the loan guarantees...the US will be advancing its own interest," he said. His unconditional support for the loan package, in addition to $4 Billion in outright grants, went further than even some of the most pro-Israel elements in the Bush administration, like Paul Wolfowitz, who wanted to at least include some vague restrictions like pushing Israel to curtail new settlements and accept a timetable to establish a Palestinian state.

http://www.muslimwakeup.com/mainarchive/000119.html

Dean believes the Bush administration should be giving Israel $4 billion in military aid to fight terrorism, not the $1 billion it proposed last month.

http://www.jewishsf.com/bk030418/us02.shtml

And, finally, Dean's foreign policy speech at Drake. Note how one-sided it is.

When they have bothered to state them, the Administration's guiding principles in the Middle East are the right ones. Terrorism against Israel must end. A two-state solution is the only path to eventual peace, but Palestinian territory cannot have the capability of being used as a platform for attacking Israel. Some degree of separation between Israelis and Palestinians is probably necessary in light of the horrible bloodshed of the past two years. To be viable, the Palestinian Authority must become democratic and purged of corruption.

But none of this will happen naturally. The United States is the only country with the ability to give both sides the confidence to move toward a future of coexistence. Appearances matter, and if we are not engaged, it looks like we simply do not care and that we have condemned the entire Palestinian people because of their leadership. In my view, this hurts the United States, it hurts Israel, and it makes it less likely the violence and the terrorism will end.

http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=policy_speech_foreign_drake

---

To sum up: Dean says we shouldn't "take sides" - despite promising a leader of another country unconditional financial aid (more than even Paul Wolfowitz would concede). That's 4x the military aid ($1 billion to $4 billion) and 4x the guaranteed loans ($2 billion to $8 billion). He also supports unilateral concessions from the Palestinians, and a "separation" wall that even George W. Bush has reservations about.

How very Presidential.

Now let's compare to Kerry's foreign policy speech at Georgetown:

Without demanding unilateral concessions, the United States must mediate a series of confidence building steps which start down the road to peace. Both parties must walk this path together - simultaneously. And the world can help them do it. While maintaining our long term commitment to Israel's existence and security, the United States must work to keep both sides focused on the end game of peace. Extremists must not be allowed to control this process.

http://www.johnkerry.com/news/speeches/spc_2003_0123.html
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 02:45 AM
Response to Original message
39. Here are some Clark quotes re Israel and I did NOT like them
(you all know how much I just want the US to be even-handed to the point that this is a litmus test for me)

Repeats the propaganda:

In the Middle East we've got an active guerrilla war between Israel and Palestine. It's a shame; it's a tragedy. I was with former prime minister Ehud Barak last weekend in San Antonio, and we talked about this. He made a bold strategic move. He restored legitimacy to Israel by pulling out of Lebanon. He called Arafat; he called his bluff. He said here it is, you can have everything you want; you can have part of Jerusalem; you can have the temple area and everything--you can have control of this. You can have the settlements here frozen until--but it wasn't enough.
http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110004065
----------------------------------------------------------------

Apologist:

<snip>

So Israel’s adversaries found a new way to fight. They used infantry (equipped with small arms, rocket-propelled grenades and antitank guided missiles). In response, Israel put mortars on its tanks and practiced seizing the high ground in order to bring fire against enemy infantrymen.

Then the Palestinians inside Israel learned how to resist using nonlethal force, like rocks and clubs. It was a tactic aimed at exploiting world sensitivities, forcing Israeli security forces to overreact. Occasionally the tactics were supplemented by armed men concealed among the rock throwers or by the use of terror bombings. This was the intifadeh. ((Warning Will Robinson, the Intifada did not happen inside Israel- did this Rhoads scholar flunk geography? This is hawkish settler talk!))

So Israel developed new equipment, new forces and new tactics. To secure its borders, Israel deployed more heavily armored tanks and troop-carrying vehicles. Apache helicopters, unmanned aerial vehicles and very long-range optics were procured. To protect itself internally, Israel issued its infantrymen plastic bullets and other riot-control gear. Special security forces were organized to help relieve the conventional Israel units of responsibility for keeping order inside Israel. When confrontation with hostile crowds was unavoidable, Israel used restrictive rules of engagement – and snipers to respond to armed opponents – in an effort to minimize losses and avoid dramatic scenes that could inflame world opinion.

<snip>
Israel’s riposte was tactically precise and strategically effective. The pinpoint strikes by armed helicopters on Thursday targeted Palestinian facilities associated with inciting the violence. Carefully giving advance warning to minimize civilian casualties, Israel drew a firm line. Enough. It was sharp and, in Israeli public opinion, satisfying. And as a clear escalation – reminding the world that local events could quickly grow into a major regional conflict – the Israeli move drew in diplomatic leverage from all sides.

<snip>

http://www.greatertalent.com/clark.shtml

----------------

"I think Clark might just take the wind out of the sail of Dean's balloon," said lawyer Stuart Shorenstein, whose wife went to check out the general. "I wouldn't be surprised to see a lot of people gravitating over."

The idea that Clark would gain among Jewish voters at the expense of Dean was also promoted by Rep. Steve Israel, a New York congressman who was one of the first in the House to endorse Clark. "Oh yeah," is how Israel responded when asked whether Dean had hurt himself with recent remarks advocating a neutralist posture toward Arab-Israeli negotiations. Clark, meanwhile, garnered rave reviews when he spoke in Long Island a couple of weeks ago to the Long Island Foreign Affairs Forum, a group of 100 business leaders, Israel said.

"For Jewish voters who are concerned about terrorism and who want a president with a constructive and thoughtful strategy for dealing with terrorism, Wesley Clark is extremely appealing," Israel said. "No other candidate has a lock on New York's Jewish voters. I think General Clark has that opportunity."

Israel, who voted for the resolution authorizing the use of force in Iraq, said he was unconcerned with conflicting statements Clark has made on the campaign trail about whether he would have voted for the resolution. Commentators have seized on the flip-flops as evidence that Clark was stumbling out of the gate, but Israel said arguments over the resolution were less about "substance" than about "timing."

<snip>

A hint of Clark's thinking on the Middle East is contained in a series of reports on the region by the International Crisis Group, a caucus of foreign-policy luminaries on whose board Clark sits. The reports, which can be viewed at the group's Web site (www.intl-crisis-group.org), argue for a comprehensive, rather than incremental, strategy to end the Arab-Israeli conflict that would involve "not only the Israeli-Palestinian track... but the Israel-Syria and Israel-Lebanon tracks as well."

<snip>
http://www.forward.com/issues/2003/03.09.26/news1.clark.html
-----------------

What makes me really uncomfortable about Clark is that I noticed all the hawkish Lieberman supporters were the first ones to jump on his band wagon. That observation became disconcerting when I found out Clark was associated with the Brookings Institution Saban Center

Director: Martin S. Indyk
Director of Research: Kenneth M. Pollack
Senior Fellows: Philip H. Gordon, Shibley Telhami, Daniel L. Byman
National Security Fellow and Coordinator, Brookings Project on U.S. Policy Towards the Islamic World: Peter W. Singer
Visiting Fellows: Shaul Bakhash, Muqtedar Khan, Flynt Leverett, Ömer Taspinar, and Ezzat I.M. Youssef
Center Administrator: Ellen McHugh
Research Analyst: Haim Malka
Senior Research Assistant: Garner Gollatz
Staff Assistant: Mitchell Wunsh

Martin S. Indyk
Director
Arab-Israeli conflict, Gulf security, U.S. policy
Ambassador Indyk served in several senior positions in the U.S. government, most recently as ambassador to Israel and assistant secretary of state for Near East affairs. He was also a founding executive director of the Washington Institute for Near East Policy. He has published widely on Palestinian-Israeli peace and other topics in Middle East policy, and is now working on a study of the Clinton Administration's diplomacy in the region.

Kenneth M. Pollack
Director of Research
Iraq, Iran, Gulf security, Arab military affairs
Dr. Pollack served as a CIA analyst and as the National Security Council's director for Persian Gulf affairs and for Near East and South Asian affairs. He is the author of two recent books, The Threatening Storm: The Case for Invading Iraq and Arabs at War: Military Effectiveness, 1948-1991 (both 2002). His current research focuses on postwar reconstruction and democratization in Iraq and future security arrangements in the Persian Gulf.

Philip H. Gordon
Senior Fellow and Director, Center for the U.S. and France
Europe, transatlantic relations, Turkey, Middle East
Dr. Gordon previously served in the National Security Council as director of European affairs. He is the author of The French Challenge: Adapting to Globalization (2001) and The Transatlantic Allies and a Changing Middle East (1998). He has published widely on such Middle East-related topics as Cyprus, Turkey, and the international crisis over Iraq. His current research focuses on U.S.-European relations in the Middle East.

Shibley Telhami
Nonresident Senior Fellow
Palestinian and Israeli politics, ethnic identity and conflict, Gulf and Arab politics
Dr. Telhami is Anwar Sadat Professor at the University of Maryland and author of The Stakes: America and the Middle East (2002). His many other publications on Middle East politics include Power and Leadership in International Bargaining: The Path to the Camp David Accords (1990). His current research focuses on the media's role in shaping Middle Eastern political identity and the sources of ideas about U.S. policy in the region.

Daniel L. Byman
Nonresident Senior Fellow
Middle Eastern terrorism, U.S. counterterrorism strategy, conflict management
Dr. Byman is assistant professor of security studies at Georgetown University. His experience includes work on the Joint 9/11 Inquiry and Senate Intelligence Committees and as an analyst for the CIA. He is the author of two recent books, Keeping the Peace: Lasting Solutions to Ethnic Conflicts and The Dynamics of Coercion: American Foreign Policy and the Limits of Military Might (both 2002).

Peter W. Singer
National Security Fellow and Director, Brookings Project on U.S. Policy Towards the Islamic World
Foreign policy, national security, U.S. relations with Islamic countries
Dr. Singer is the author of Corporate Warriors: The Rise of the Privatized Military History (2003) and a forthcoming book on the global problem of child soldiers, Caution: Children at War. Among other topics he has researched are U.S. Afghanistan policy, the politics of Islamic education in Pakistan, AIDS and national security, and American policy toward the Islamic world.

VISITING FELLOWS

Shaul Bakhash
Visiting Fellow
Iran, modern Islamic political thought
Dr. Bakhash is Clarence J. Robinson Professor of History at George Mason University. He is the author of Reign of the Ayatollahs: Iran and the Islamic Revolution; Iran: Monarchy, Bureaucracy, and Reform Under the Qajars, 1858-1896; and The Politics of Oil and Revolution in Iran. He formerly worked as a journalist in Tehran. His current research focuses on the reform movement and the prospects for democratic change in Iran.

Muqtedar Khan
Visiting Fellow, Brookings Project on U.S. Policy towards the Islamic World
Political Islam, Islamic thought, U.S. foreign policy, globalization
Dr. Khan is assistant professor of political science and director of the international studies program at Adrian College. His published work has addressed political Islam, U.S. foreign policy, religious and political identity, globalization, and various topics in Islamic political theory and philosophy. His current research aims to provide a revised framework for U.S. policy towards the Islamic world.

Flynt Leverett
Visiting Fellow
Syria, U.S.-Arab relations, counterterrorism
Dr. Leverett was senior director for Middle East affairs at the National Security Council, advising the White House on relations with Egypt, Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, the Palestinian Authority, Saudi Arabia, and Syria. Dr. Leverett previously served as a Middle East and counterterrorism expert on the Secretary of State's Policy Planning Staff and as a senior CIA analyst. His research focuses on Syria, the war on terrorism, and U.S.-Syrian relations.

Ömer Taspinar
Visiting Fellow, Brookings Project on U.S. Policy towards the Islamic World
Turkey, political Islam, human rights, international economic policy
Dr. Taspinar is a Turkish political analyst and an adjunct professor of European and Middle East Studies at The Johns Hopkins University. His research interests include Turkish politics, the European Union, political Islam, Kurdish nationalism, and human rights. He is currently working on a study of economic and educational outreach for the Brookings Project on U.S. Policy Towards the Islamic World.

Ezzat I.M. Youssef
Visiting Fellow, Brookings Project on U.S. Policy towards the Islamic World
International Relations, U.S. Policy in the Middle East
Mr. Youssef, a Fulbright/APSA fellow, is a journalist at the foreign affairs desk of the Egyptian newspaper al-Ahram. After his time at Brookings, he will spend nine months in the U.S. Congress as a Congressional Fellow. He edits al-Ahram's biweekly feature "The Agenda," presenting the latest views from international think tanks. His research interests include the role of think tanks and Congress in making U.S. foreign policy.

http://www.brook.edu/fp/saban/staff.htm

I saved the best for last: PNAC ((Saban Center is part of the Brookings Institution btw))

Under the direction of Vice President and Director James B. Steinberg, the Foreign Policy Studies program at the Brookings Institution seeks to meet these challenges through timely research and analysis designed to inform and shape the policy debate in the United States and abroad.

http://www.brook.edu/fp/information.htm

Thus, among the signers who have never before been associated with PNAC, are Robert Asmus, a former deputy secretary of state for Europe; Ivo Daalder, a prominent member of Clinton's National Security Council staff; Robert Gelbard, a former U.S. ambassador to Chile and Indonesia; Martin Indyk, Clinton's ambassador to Israel; Dennis Ross, his chief adviser on Palestinian-Israeli negotiations; Walter Slocombe, Clinton's top policy official at the Pentagon; and, most important, James Steinberg, Clinton's deputy national security adviser who now heads foreign policy studies at the influential Brookings Institution.

http://www.fpif.org/commentary/2003/0303pnacletter_body.html

http://pnacrevealed.com/

Participant at BILDERBERG 2003: VERSAILLES, PARIS
USA - Steinberg, James B. - Vice President and Director, Foreign Policy Studies Program, The Brookings Institution
http://www.propagandamatrix.com/bilderberg_2003.html

I stopped looking but here's the google link:
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=James+steinberg+PNAC


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Eurobabe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 06:42 AM
Response to Original message
43. Clark on Israel with Tim Russert June 2003
Clark on Israel (June 2003)
From "NBC New's Meet the Press"

http://genclark2004.blogspot.com/2003_10_05_genclark2004_archive.html#106550910619810586

MR. RUSSERT: The Middle East: Should Israel listen to George Bush and show more restraint?
GEN. CLARK: Well, I think they can show some restraint. But the problem is when you have hard intelligence that you’re about to be struck, it’s the responsibility of a government to take action against that intelligence and prevent the loss of lives. It’s what any society would expect of its leadership. So there’s a limit to how much restraint can be shown.
MR. RUSSERT: What can the president do now...
GEN. CLARK: I...
MR. RUSSERT: ...to bring about peace?
GEN. CLARK: I think what we’ve got to do is bring more of the neighboring countries’ leadership in more strongly. You know, in the case in Europe when we were dealing with the problems in Yugoslavia, we set up the contact group. The contact group had the United States and it had the European Union; it had Russia. And Russia at the time, frankly, was very supportive of the Serbs. They represented the Serbs’ views in these meetings. And what we need in the Middle East, I believe, is something stronger
than the current informal bilateral relationships that work on the periphery of the struggle. I think you need a Middle East contact group, because I think peace in the region is in the interests of all the countries in the region.
MR. RUSSERT: Who should be involved?
GEN. CLARK: And we need to lead that.
MR. RUSSERT: Which countries?
GEN. CLARK: I think, certainly, it’s Jordan. I think it’s Egypt. I think it’s clearly Saudi Arabia. Now, when you come to Syria and Iran, that’s where you have difficulties, and it’s a question of how you’re going to engage those countries. Can they be engaged or must they be confronted, or is there some combination that’s involved? And I think we’ve got to work our way through that. I think there’s got to be a process put in place to work our way through that.
MR. RUSSERT: You’re a strong proponent of NATO. Would you consider recommending putting NATO troops in the occupied territories to help bring about security and peace?
GEN. CLARK: Well, at some point, yes. At some point, there may be a time to do that, but I think one of the things we’ve seen most clearly in 10 years of experience with this is you have to have a mandate first. You have to have legitimacy first. You have to have a mission first. You have to deal with the political situation first before you put the troops in. The NATO troops are going to be no more effective at stopping terrorist attacks than the Israeli troops are. In fact, they’re going to be less effective. They’re not from the area. They don’t have the experience, they don’t have the intelligence connections.
And so simply putting another presence in there by itself doesn’t solve it. You’ve got to get at the political problems first. So you’ve got to have something that’s more concrete than the road map, something that you can use outside pressure, more details and move this process forward, but at some point, NATO certainly
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 08:02 AM
Response to Original message
47. That's a distortion
I listened, too. What he actually said was that if you knew someone was massing troops and you *knew* that an attack on your country was imminent, then the government not only has a right to strike pre-emptively, but an OBLIGATION to its people to do so.

Quite a different proposition than the one you set forth in the topic.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
burr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-13-03 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #47
53. how many countries have our troops on their borders that they knew...
Edited on Mon Oct-13-03 06:39 PM by burr
might attack their country? Did he also say that Iraq must do this, as they when attacking Kuwait...or Japan when they attacked Pearl Harbor, was this their obligation?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-13-03 05:03 PM
Response to Original message
50. is it wrong for Clark to have a position the same as Dean's?
Or is it only wrong for Clark? Would you start a thread if Dean had said it? Their positions are the same here aren't they?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bread and Circus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-13-03 08:56 PM
Response to Original message
54. It does, so do we, so does any sovereign nation...
and if you understood what a pre-emptive
attack means (i.e. the opposite of what Bush
has done), you would agree too.

It's lack of understanding of basic terminology
that makes me think DU is just filled with ideologues
and not real independent thinkers.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Fri May 03rd 2024, 05:26 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Politics/Campaigns Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC