Dean and Kerry supporters...

[renie408]

Why don't you just kill each other? It would save a lot of time and free up some space for people who don't want to spend the whole damn night reading endless posts that virtually say, "DID!!", "DID NOT!!".

HINT: NOBODY REALLY GIVES A FUCK IF YOU FOUND OUT THAT KERRY/DEAN CHANGED HIS MIND ABOUT HAVING SPRINKLES ON HIS ICE CREAM FIFTEEN YEARS AGO.

The Dean people are NOT going to EVER concede that Dean is not the second coming of Christ. Get over it. He is going to win the nomination and then the general election without ONE SINGLE VOTE BEING CAST FOR ANYONE ELSE. It's their reality, leave them to it.

The Kerry people...oh, goddam, why not find something better to do than take shots at Dean?? YOU JUST LOOK PATHETIC. And it does NOT make Kerry look any better to keep babbling about Dean instead of babbling about Kerry.

I used to feel bad about not trying to become more informed about politics. Not any more. Hell, somebody cannot even write a post asking people to back off without getting flamed. Can either side see how this looks to the VAST MAJORITY of people who HAVEN'T made up their minds yet?? It shouldn't bother me, you guys are going to rip each other to shreds and leave the way open for someone else. And you can't even stop yourselves. It is like it is compulsive.

Hopefully, I have given you something you can band together against.

[Upfront]

1. Your Right

Of course. Hope somone hears you.:-)

[virtualobserver]

2. Politics is not pretty.......

(apologies to Steve Martin)

[ProfessorPlum]

3. What should _I_ do?

I "support" both of them. I'm interested in learning more (truthful) information about both of their histories, positions, experience, mistakes, triumphs, and personalities.

I happen to have a subjective opinion that one would run a more effective campaign against Dim Son.

I think my only course of action is to off myself. This board makes me a least want to cancel my internet connection - some days.

[Nicholas_J]

10. Then do not oppose.

The posting of valid articles that discuss the decisions of EITHER candidate.

Remember when Dean said that Kerry waffled too much on the Iraq issue. Well now the media is pointing out the same thing about Dean...they are valid criticisms. If Dean had a highly conmservative record as Governor, It is aspaapropriate to point this out asit is for Dean supporters to criticise the passing of the Partiot Act and who signed it. If Dean met with a bunch of Republicans at a public kickoff of his last camapaign and Dean stateds "what I have in common with the people in this room is our Fiscal Ideas" then democrats SHOULD know about that without it being attacked. If it was printed in a legitmate Vermont Paper, that is well know, and has won national prizes for journalistic excellence, then this is NOT bashing, but information that some Dems SHOULD KNOW...


Is it bashing to criticize Kerry for singing the Patriot Act. NO AS he did it.

Is it bashing to state that Kerry voted for the Bush tax cuts...YES because he voted against the Bush tax cuts BOTH times.

But to bring up valid information about Dean, based on the ONLY thing you can judge his possible futire behavior on, which is his past behavior, than this infomation should be accepted, niot attacked, and only opposed with valid couterpoint from DEMOCRATS who were elected and in the legislature in Vermont who can point out why it was acceptable for Dean to do the things being brought up for examination.

If Dean supporters DO not wish to see such information leveled at Dean,regarding his record as governor. then all references to WHO signed the Partiot Act, Who did not, Who Vote for the October Resolution and who did not should also be targeted as the type of inmformation that should be prohibited on DU in consideration of candidates.

You well know that Dean supporters werebashing the other candidates on Deans opinion of the act long before ANY other candidate filed to even RUN for president.


The idea that the October Resolution was a votec for war has no legal basis, and this whole concept that is was is simply an opinion that Dean repeated so many times that his supporters take it as fact, when a judge stated that the act did not give Bush unlimited or permanent auithority to wage war on HIS OWN TERMS.

[ProfessorPlum]

12. I'm interested in facts, Nick.

Your credibility is totally shot.

[renie408]

13. Which of the things

that he just said are not factual?

SEE?? This is EXACTLY what I am talking about. Instead of saying, "Nick, you know that Dean never spoke to Republicans and made that statement, that is false and here is how I know." You just say that he lacks credibility. That's all that seems to happen. One person makes a claim, and the supporters of the other side just say that this person is a basher and lying. 95% of the time, they offer NOTHING to counter what has been said. I believe him. I believe everything he says about Dean. Why shouldn't I? Nobody will ever say anything to make me think differently.

God, the ironic thing is that I came here wanting to learn more about Dean and like him better because all I had heard were negative statements about him. And I find that I mistrust him more than ever now. What is going to happen a year from now if "you are just bashing Dean' is the best defense that anybody can come up with? The Republicans are going to make Dean out to look like a waffling liar and it is going to come down to the liar you know or the liar you don't. And they are going to know that this is the most effective tack to take because they will be able to see how well it is working now.

[ProfessorPlum]

14. Nick could tell me the sky was blue

and I wouldn't believe it at this point. His methods and his agenda have been laid open for everyone to see, and they are not those of someone trying to illuminate the truth. They are, in fact, obfuscating.

If you have any questions about Dean, ask them and you will undoubtedly learn a bit of something here. Better yet, double check them with outside sources.

I have wasted enough time checking up on Nick's "facts".

[renie408]

15. I have only been here

about two weeks. In that time, it seems like everybody just blows off everything he says. He may be full of shit, but without anybody contesting what he says, it makes it seem like he is right and there is no defense. Maybe most of you got sick of him a long time before I got here and are over having to answer his 'baseless' claims. But from a relative newbie's POV, it appears that he could be right and you have no answer for him.

[ProfessorPlum]

16. Your first answer is the right one

We've spent a lot of time in the past picking through his posts, and he uses really biased sources and doesn't balance them with opposing points of view, he uses opinion pieces instead of factual articles, in general he is a very poor source for balanced information. He posts things by some whack job in VT with an axe to grind against everybody, Dean included.

He does occasionally post some things with some actual truth to them, which in a way is kind of a shame because they are important to know, but they are lost in the effluvia of biased smear which otherwise comes out of his posts.

dsc is rather heroic in this regard and has much more patience for trying to call him on his bs than I do, and I'm sure if you wait around long enough you'll see him try. Nicholas won't engage in that kind of constructive debate, however.

I can see how watching the end of the process, after everyone has given up on Nick, might be confusing. You really have to take his posts with a large grain (preferably a salt lick) of salt.

He does seem very fervent in his support of Kerry and his hatred of Dean, though. You can't say he's not passionate.

[Nicholas_J]

21. Republicans for Dean:

One of those issues was Act 60, a law that many Republicans have opposed. Several times during the news conference, the Republicans said they disagreed with some of Dean's policies but reiterated their support for his fiscal conservatism.

Even Dean acknowledged that his fiscal policy was the common ground he shared with the nine men and two women at the table, most of whom admitted to voting for Dean in the last election.

The group, known as "Republicans for Dean" represents the first organized GOP endorsement for Dean in any of his five campaigns.

Michael Bernhardt, a former House member and past gubernatorial candidate, publicly endorsed Dean in 1998, but he was not part of an organized effort. On Thursday, he said he did not want to risk the state's financial health by ousting the governor.

http://www.rutlandherald.com/election2000/repbackdean.html

You mean false statements like these?

Sorry, my credibility is only subject among Deanies...

WE, myself and many others on DU, research this stuff and I have MANY people who PM for support of my posts, but do not want to be gang raped by Deanies so do not say so in the Forums...They however watch for Deanies and direct me to threads FREQUNETLY.

Another Fact:

Medicaid cuts will affect thousands of Vermonters
January 23, 2002

By DAVID MACE

Vermont Press Bureau

MONTPELIER — Tens of thousands of Vermonters would see their state health care benefits rolled back or cut off completely under Gov. Howard Dean’s proposed budget, which seeks to wring $16.5 million in savings from Medicaid.

In an effort to curb costs in a rapidly expanding part of the social services budget, Dean is proposing to require many people who got coverage under his expansions of Medicaid programs to pay for a greater share of their health care.

Medicaid is the state-run program that uses both state and federal money to provide benefits to the poor and disabled. Over the past several years Dean has expanded the programs by allowing participation by Vermonters with incomes higher than the federal guidelines.

Under the proposed budget, about 3,200 elderly or disabled Vermonters who get half the cost of long-term drugs paid for under a program called VScript Expanded would see their benefits disappear. This would save the state nearly $2.5 million. A single Vermonter with an annual income up to $19,332 is currently eligible.

And even those making less who are covered under the state’s standard VScript program will see their costs rise.

Currently, a single person with an income as high as $15,036 is eligible to have all their long-term drugs covered for only a $1 or $2 co-payment.

Under Dean’s proposal, those people — about 3,200 are currently enrolled — would be required to pay half the costs of their drugs, though they would not have to pay more than $750 out of pocket in a year. This would save the state an estimated $800,000.

And Vermonters who get help paying for drugs under the Vermont Health Access Plan, or VHAP Pharmacy, which covers all drugs and requires only a $1 or $2 co-payment, would also have to pay half the cost with a $750 limit.

http://timesargus.nybor.com/Legislature/Story/41169.html

Which resulted in another fact:

Senate adds money to budget, angers Dean
May 9, 2002

By ROSS SNEYD The Associated Press

MONTPELIER — Senators passed a 2003 state budget Wednesday that the governor made clear he would veto if it ever reached his desk.

Just hours after an angry Gov. Howard Dean leveled a series of charges about how irresponsible he believed the Senate, controlled by his fellow Democrats, was being, senators did precisely what he warned them not to do.

They restored money to a pharmaceutical assistance program that he had slated for elimination, redirected some money to cities and towns to help pay for education, and passed the budget by a 21-8 roll-call vote.

“I believe what the Senate Appropriations Committee presented to you was a budget that listens to what Vermonters have asked us to do,” committee Chairwoman Susan Bartlett, D-Lamoille, said just before the vote.

“I believe that it is responsible of government, when times get difficult, to protect our most needy and our most vulnerable. ... I think turning our backs on Vermonters is what’s fiscally irresponsible.”

http://timesargus.nybor.com/Legislature/Story/46513.html

Which resulted in another fact:


Progressives call for higher taxes for rich
January 25, 2002

By JACK HOFFMAN

Vermont Press Bureau

MONTPELIER — Vermont Progressives renewed their call Thursday for higher taxes on the wealthy in order to avoid some of the budget cuts that Gov. Howard Dean outlined earlier this week...

The Progressives said their proposal was designed to mirror the surcharges adopted during that last budget crisis, but they have not proposed an expiration date for the new surcharges.

Dean reiterated his opposition to raising the income tax shortly after the Progressives unveiled their tax plan. Dean contends Vermont’s marginal income tax rate — that is, the top rate paid by those in the highest income brackets — already is too high.

http://timesargus.nybor.com/Legislature/Story/41293.html

Problem is you guys cannot refure Deans actions and so must resort to claiming my posts have already discredited me... You must repeat that I am a liar, in order to divert attention to FACTS about Dean.


That the articles posted are LIES:


Dean supporters can only attack others by calling true valid factual information, LIES amd ity has been said another Demagogue and his supporters.

95 percent of my posts have been backed by articles like this and 95 percdnt of Dean supporters rtespond by calling the FACTS lies.


"The bigger the lie, the more they'll believe it"

Adolph Hitler.

[ProfessorPlum]

23. How about, just once, acknowledging

the fact that a VT Republican is perhaps not the same breed as the scary cabal running this country?

And that, perhaps, after seven years of good government, those 11 people in Vermont could recognize good financial management to the point where they overcame their partisanship to support someone who was an excellent steward for their state?

After all, Jim Jeffords was a Republican from VT, and you can make the argument that he has done more in saving us from harm from the Bush's than anyone else.

[Nicholas_J]

24. Then how about some dems opinions of Dean:

Those who know Dean say he’s no classic liberal
By ROSS SNEYD

Associated Press Writer

Dean kept his distance from his party’s liberals during his governorship.

"He seemed to take glee in attacking us at every opportunity and using us as a way to form alliances with more conservative elements," said former state Sen. Cheryl Rivers, a leader of the state Democrats’ liberal wing and former chairwoman of the powerful Senate Finance Committee.

Dean fashioned himself a position in the political center of Vermont politics even as the state has moved steadily to the left.

Dean trimmed spending or held down increases in areas held dear by the liberals. More than once, Dean went to battle over whether individual welfare benefits should rise under automatic cost of living adjustments. Liberals were particularly incensed when he tried that tactic on a program serving the blind, disabled and elderly, which he did several times.

Dean turned often to the bully pulpit to belittle and berate them

http://premium1.fosters.com/2003/news/may%5F03/may%5F19/news/reg%5Fvt0519a.asp

Or the produceers of a newspaper devoted to worker and working class issues:

I know that a lot of you are going to vote for Dean -- he talks a good game; he can be charismatic and charming. But I'm warning you. This man will tell you what you want to hear, or at least tell you something that has some little kernel of something that you can interpret as support for the things that are important to you. But when the time comes to stand up and lead on the issue, to take on the money interests and backsliders in his own party, that stiff little spine will turn into a slinky.

If you vote for him, it's your job to stand behind him with a poker and keep him headed in the right direction. Don't give him any honeymoon period, either--keep the pressure on from the second you drop that ballot in the box. The minute you relax, he's going to turn right back into what he really is...a privileged, arrogant, middle of the road republican. Put your political energy into getting some truly progressive folks into the House and Senate, and into State legislatures around the country so that there will be more pressure from more directions. We need to get together our sophisticated progressive thinkers to develop policy ideas in every area, so that we're ready with real, well-thought out counter-proposals for the incremental changes a Dean administration might put forth. If you feel you must, support Dean, do--but then go do the work necessary to make real change.

Ron Jacobs, Donna Bister and Marc Estrin comprise the OLD NORTH END RAG collective. The RAG is an agitational community newspaper serving the Old North End of Burlington, Vermont. This neighborhood is a primarily working class section of Vermonts largest city that has a history of political activism


http://www.counterpunch.org/jacobs08292003.html

[Nicholas_J]

25. ALso

Polls in Vermont show that the stae and ALL of the Republicans FIRMLY back Bush and Dean will lose his own state against Bush...

These same Repubicans For Dean , were Bush For President Republicansw and still are. The fact that they Supported both Dean and Bush says alot about Dean.

[renie408]

41. Is being Republican

really synonomous with being evil? Couldn't people consider themselves Republicans, yet lean a little left on some issues? Isn't the root of Republicanism just wanting to have a small central government?

[Nicholas_J]

48. No

But to try to attempt to convince people you are liberal, or be SO vague about where you really stand politically in order to persuade a group of people who MIGHT not approve of your real record to get them to vote for you is the problem.

If you read this article again, by three Vermonters who had to deal with Dean in Vermont:

I know that a lot of you are going to vote for Dean -- he talks a good game; he can be charismatic and charming. But I'm warning you. This man will tell you what you want to hear, or at least tell you something that has some little kernel of something that you can interpret as support for the things that are important to you. But when the time comes to stand up and lead on the issue, to take on the money interests and backsliders in his own party, that stiff little spine will turn into a slinky.

If you vote for him, it's your job to stand behind him with a poker and keep him headed in the right direction. Don't give him any honeymoon period, either--keep the pressure on from the second you drop that ballot in the box. The minute you relax, he's going to turn right back into what he really is...a privileged, arrogant, middle of the road republican. Put your political energy into getting some truly progressive folks into the House and Senate, and into State legislatures around the country so that there will be more pressure from more directions. We need to get together our sophisticated progressive thinkers to develop policy ideas in every area, so that we're ready with real, well-thought out counter-proposals for the incremental changes a Dean administration might put forth. If you feel you must, support Dean, do--but then go do the work necessary to make real change.

Ron Jacobs, Donna Bister and Marc Estrin comprise the OLD NORTH END RAG collective. The RAG is an agitational community newspaper serving the Old North End of Burlington, Vermont. This neighborhood is a primarily working class section of Vermonts largest city that has a history of political activism


http://www.counterpunch.org/jacobs08292003.html

This is not the only article that indicates that Dean plays the politics of vagueness as well asBush did before he got elected wuth his "Compassionate Conservatism" statements, then goinfg back and losing the compassion somewhere, and keeping the conservatism:



Those who know Dean say he’s no classic liberal
By ROSS SNEYD

Associated Press Writer

MONTPELIER, Vt. (AP) — Howard Dean may be many things, say those who worked with him over nearly a dozen years as Vermont governor, but an elitist liberal is hardly one of them.

He’s actually a lot more moderate — many would say conservative — than the reputation he’s built during his campaign for the Democratic presidential nomination...


Dean kept his distance from his party’s liberals during his governorship.

"He seemed to take glee in attacking us at every opportunity and using us as a way to form alliances with more conservative elements," said former state Sen. Cheryl Rivers, a leader of the state Democrats’ liberal wing and former chairwoman of the powerful Senate Finance Committee.

Dean fashioned himself a position in the political center of Vermont politics even as the state has moved steadily to the left.

http://premium1.fosters.com/2003/news/may%5F03/may%5F19/news/reg%5Fvt0519a.asp

The problem is there are two ways of decieving people.

You have lies of commission, straight out lies,

And lies of omission, where you only tell part of the truth, enough to lead people into thinking that you support their ideals and ideals, only to reverse yourself once you have gotten what you wanted.

No, being a Republican is not necessarily bad.

But dont you thing the deceptive tack to get what you want is?

These articles and a number of have indicated that these two are representative of Deans style of politics.

If you read all of the articles linked above in full, it may give you a better idea of the character of Dean:



In the year 2000, in a campaign promise, Dean promised universal health care in Vermont by 2002:

Dean promises health coverage for all by 2002
October 4, 2000

By FREDERICK BEVER Vermont Press Bureau

BURLINGTON - Gov. Howard Dean on Tuesday unveiled an ambitious goal for Vermont's health care system - enactment by 2002 of a plan that would lead to health insurance coverage for every state resident.

Appearing at a press conference at the Burlington Community Health Center, Dean said he would build on proposals expected from a $1.3 million, yearlong study of Vermont's health care system aimed at finding ways to get insurance to Vermonters who currently lack it.

"It will allow us to look at the infrastructure essentially for going to universal health care for all Vermonters," Dean said. "It's a complicated subject; $1.3 million is a lot of money, and I think we ought to be able to figure out how to solve the problem. ... We're going to look at some innovative things."

http://rutlandherald.nybor.com/News/State/Story/13593.html

Read ALL of this article, and then compare it to the reality that Dean created in the 2002 articles that I linked to earlier...

You cannot get a full picture without reading them completely, and if you do, you get a better picure of how different Dena the Presidential candidate is from Dean when he actually holds power.

If you do so, you wil see that what I state about Dean is not necessarily false, and that the frequent attacks on me that you have seen as reading false information may not be valid.

I think the best way to tell the character of a person is not to listen to them talk about themselves but to see how they act under the pressure of making hard decisions, What choices they make. Money or People. How they behave under adversity.

Read the articles and then you may have a better idea of how the candidates act under adversity.

What I admire about Kerry is that he acted well under adversity. But also that in Iowa hesaid, dont judge any candidate by what they tell you when trying to get elected. They will all guild the lily.

Look at their records for yourself, and then decide.

[XanaDUer]

30. Well, I have not given up on him

Say what you will:

1. He has the right to post. He stays within the rules.

2. He NEVER, EVER calls people the filthy names I have seen his some of his detractors call him, like a "turd floating in a punchbowl".

3. I would like to see some REAL responses to his posts, instead of name-calling attacks.

4. He has the right to be leery of Dean's candidacy. Dean is not the second coming of Christ, and I have seen others here flamed for saying the mildest things, called "bashers" for saying that Dean needs to buy bigger shirts, needs new ties, etc.

5. He has indicated that he is disabled. Well, guess what? Dean's record on the disabled in Vermont was poor-Democrats had to consistently stop Dean from cutting funding to the poor and disabled. Including them getting COLA increases on their disability bennies.

So, why are his questions/concerns about Dean ***ANY LESS VALID*** than , say a pro-choice supporters view of Dennis Kucinich? BTW-that is not a slam against DK, DK is a fantastic candidate, and I believe him when he says he will uphold abortion rights if he becomes President.

Why is Nicholas_j's concerns any worse than a pro-choice voters? Because he is questioning Dean, a cardinal sin on DU, thanks to many of Dean's supporters.

I have seen nicholas_j get short tempered with some posters, only after I have read unrelenting abuse from that poster to him.
I don't always agree with him, but I will defend his right to say it.

Rah-rah cheerleading IS not intelligent voting.

[Nicholas_J]

29. Thanks Rennie

Most of my posts are articles about like the ones I have posted further down, following Deans decisions, like the ones to cut medical benefits during Vermonts dealing with the loss of funding to the states caused by Bush. He made massive cuts to programs to the disabled, which as a disabled person, was of concern to me, my first posts were simple snips form these articles asking how Deans past record on these issues seem to disconnect from his campaign message.

The resultant attacks and being cursed out and flamed for asking genuine questions of Dean can be verified by MANY other DU'ers.

Dean supporters ignore important questions about Deans record, and only offer their personal opinions about Dean rather than provide substantive proofs to justify Deans actions from OUTSIDE his own campaign organization. Some democrat who stated that Deans actions were justifiable given the conditions or soething like that.

If you follow the articles Dean cuts were NOT justifiable because the senate was able to restore them, and not only keep the budget balanced, but maintain a budget surplus.

When confronted with real inconsistancies in Deans past record,
Dean supportee simple gang flame the person posting them becasue they are trying to make it seem that any such events in Deans past did not occur.

They attack the messanger to try to invalidate the message.

Follow my threads and you will see that they are all from legitimate sources reporting actions and events that actually occured during Deans tenure as governor, and that I never resort to personally attacking any one of those who attack me. My messages are on point, adn Dean supporters either attack me, or not anwer the question or take the post off point from diverting the post AWAY from the questions asked about Deans past record as governor.

I have never made the kinds of negative statements about Professor Plum that he has just made about me.

And most of the things they post are based on pure opinion and rarely do they repond with counterpoint from sources outside of the Dean campaign machine.

Again thanks for attempting to maintain an neutral stance.

[molly]

31. Nic, I have noticed that many of them attack you personally

which is against DU rules. They post extremely negative opinions as opposed to proven facts. I really doubt that many of these attackers are old enough to vote and are experiencing the "raging hormone" surge of cultist idealism.

I, for one, won't take it anymore!

[Nicholas_J]

35. Yup, Molly...

I sort of have the same opinion.

The attacks are all smoke screens to divert the undecided from legitimate concerns that even the Washington Post raises.

Dean continually changing his stance simply appears that he is doing to to play politics, rather than having some real change of opinion. THere are many articles that indicate that this is how Dean has always run. Says ANYTHING to get into office and then goes back on everything late in the campaign or as soon as he gets into office.

[molly]

32. Have you "wasted enough time" disproving anything he

has posted? Would you be honest enough to tell us? Nic's posts are not pure conjecture they are based on proven facts. If you want to go at him - do it intelligently with FACTS to backup your rage.

[acerbic]

36. "Nic's posts are not pure conjecture they are based on proven facts"

"Nicholas_J" spews "conjecture" pure as driven snow (DU rules prohibit the use of the correct noun instead of "conjecture"):

Dean has made vague comments
About running until the end, even if he is not the nominee
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=265250&mesg_id=265460&page=

[Nicholas_J]

38. And articles in which Dean

Said he would not drop out if he were not the nominee were posted all over this pllace serval weeks ago...

[acerbic]

39. Propaganda analysis:

Claim:

"articles in which Dean Said he would not drop out if he were not the nominee were posted all over this pllace serval weeks ago..."

Sources, references, links: none. Only a stubbornly repeated <prohibited noun>. "Articles" from Dean haters' favorite sources like Liesmax.con etc. CLAIMING (again with no actual proof) that Dean said so may well have been posted and it would actually be nice to see them again (if they exist) because those "articles" could be called LIES unlike some sacred cows...

[Nicholas_J]

45. Sorry

You know well that this was discussed in a thread here about three weeks ago and a link to a an article in which Dean made that statement was posted within it.

[acerbic]

47. Stubborn repetition of claims, no proof. n/t

.

[Nicholas_J]

51. O.K. I am wrong I misinterpreted the article...

NOW that I have admitted to Two mistakes, get to the articles that WERE NOT mistakes and begin to justify Denas record and justify the oopinions of him by Vermont elected Democrats...

O.K. I screwed up twice...
NOW ANSWER.

[ProfessorPlum]

56. Wow

that is the first time I've seen you admit to a misinterpretation.

Congratulations. You have taken the first step towards intellectual honesty.

Hugs :)

[ProfessorPlum]

55. my "rage" is actually exhausted depression

at the depths some people will sink to. But I don't know the smiley for exhausted depression.

Whatever. Nic's shown me that he isn't interested in facts.

[MercutioATC]

33. He said that Dean intistuted the death penalty in Vermont...

...or tried to. ABSOLUTELY UNTRUE.

[Nicholas_J]

37. And I admitted

That I made an error in doing so mercutio...

Dean again refused to answer any questions about supporting or not the Republican sponsored bill though:

Bishop Angell Re-Issues Statement
Against Death Penalty

Once again Vermont has been rocked by a series of violent murders that frighten, sadden and sicken us, unleashing raw emotions and testing our serenity. And once again, as in the fall of 1997, Governor Dean is being pressured by some to re-instate the death penalty in Vermont....


The Most Reverend Kenneth A. Angell, Bishop of the Roman Catholic Diocese of Burlington, today addressed Governor Howard Dean,s recent statements on the death penalty in Vermont.

Said Bishop Angell: "I am sorry that Governor Dean has expressed second thoughts on his support for the physicians, pledge to "do no harm. The Governor reportedly stated that "Do no harm, also...pertains to letting people out of jail...who would be a terrible harm to innocent people.



http://www.vermontcatholic.org/newsrelease/news-deathpenalty.htm

VERMONT:


Relatives of a North Clarendon woman murdered two months ago have called
on Gov. Howard Dean to reinstate the death penalty in Vermont.


Barbara Tuttle, Lori Hubbard and Karen Worcester met with Dean on
Wednesday. Their discussions included bringing back the death penalty.


"He was really receptive," Tuttle said of Dean's response to their
suggestions of reinstating capital punishment and raising the salaries of
state police officers. "He was a very nice man. I feel good about the
meeting."


The 3 would not comment on any of Dean's remarks, but said he shared
their concerns about the growing drug problem in Vermont and the need for
better salaries for police officers. They would not say if Dean agreed
with their assertion that the death penalty be reinstated in Vermont.

http://venus.soci.niu.edu/~archives/ABOLISH/rick-halperin/jan01/0031.html

again, notice, Dean supporters have been give the opposrtunity to address SEVERAL aeritles which DIRECTLY point to poor behavior and bad ideas on Deans part and they ignore them...

[MercutioATC]

40. Agreed, you did admit it was not true...you also posted it.

My arguement is that if you weren't so intent on posting whatever speck of supposed dirt anybody dreams up about Dean, true or not, we wouldn't have this problem.

[Nicholas_J]

46. O.K. we admiedt I made an error and it now answer the questions raised

In the articles i posted above, or as usual, are you creating a smokescreen based on one error, to avoid the truth?

[Nicholas_J]

50. There is so much dirt about Dean

It is hard to tell what is dirt and what is Dean...

I missed and got a few specks of dirt that were not on him.

[Nicholas_J]

49. O.K. I am wrong I misinterpreted the article...

NOW get to answering the questions on Deans record POSED above. And throughout this thread.

[poskonig]

4. Well, Dean *is* the second coming of Christ, afterall.

:beer:

[Cha]

8. That little guy drinking is so cute!

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

54. Looks like he may have a drinking problem.

Time for an intervention?

[GainesT1958]

5. It IS kind of a turn-off...

Especially this early in the game. Both groups of them need to be concentrating on their candidate's STRENGTHS,and NOT tearing down the other guy. Otherwise, more than just fellow DUers are going to say "to heck (and a lot worse, I'll bet!) with BOTH of them!" And either man is just plain TOO QUALIFIED to be dismissed over a bunch of squabbling, shrill supporters!

They're (the actual candidates) acting like "gentlemen"; their supporters should be, too! x(

B-)

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

6. It's really just a few disrupters

Your ignore option works well for the few who try to hide the true debate behind lies, name-calling, and poo-throwing. DU is a much more pleasant place when you don't have to see the same handful of people spew their crap.

[renie408]

7. You might want to unplug

your computer. You are about to be struck by lightening.

[Forkboy]

9. Why read them then

I never understand this kind of complaint :shrug:

Not saying you're wrong,but if they bother you why "spend the whole damn night reading endless posts that virtually say, "DID!!", "DID NOT!!". " Just skip them.

[renie408]

11. Actually

I don't usually read them. But a lot of the time you can't tell whether it is going to end up as a "DID" "DID NOT" thread until you get into it a bit. And it gets tough to filter through all the crap to find the information.

I don't even really mind the majority of the posts that say 'negative' things about a candidate. I figure that both the good AND the bad are what helps you make a decision. As long as it is fairly thoughtful and fact based with links to back it up and not just an "I hate _________." post, I don't mind it. What I can't stand is the mindless "DID NOT" parts. No information to dispute what the poster said, just the knee jerk "My guy is perfect." response and a snide comment. That's the part that gets old.

[WilliamPitt]

17. It is a pretty sad example

of our biggest problem as a group - I mean progressives in general and DUers in specific. On the one hand, people feel passionately about their candidate, which is nothing but a good thing. On the other hand, we work very hard to shiv our candidates, spending energy best used against the administration.

I've pretty much given up on DU as an intelligent place for debate about the candidates, especially this forum. There's a mix of brutal partisanship that would embarrass Karl Rove, my-way-or-the-highway ivory tower righteousness, and embarrassingly obvious political naivete (reference the thread about why we should bother paying attention to Mario Cuomo, and the first reply: "Who's he?").

I'd say you're wasting your time scolding anyone. If you think I am wrong, watch this thread develop.

[diamondsoul]

18. *throws a tomato at Will*

For this- "I've pretty much given up on DU as an intelligent place for debate about the candidates, especially this forum. There's a mix of brutal partisanship that would embarrass Karl Rove, my-way-or-the-highway ivory tower righteousness, and embarrassingly obvious political naivete (reference the thread about why we should bother paying attention to Mario Cuomo, and the first reply: "Who's he?")."

Dammit, man, I keep trying to engage you in some real debate and you disappear!
:P

Honestly, I agree. Most of my posts anymore are to refute garbage about Kucinich, diffuse flame-bait threads, or just plain lend some support to others who are trying to put some valid information out there. There are even some Kucinich supporters I don't bother to post to anymore because it's a waste of time.

[WilliamPitt]

19. *wipes tomato off face*

Actually, I feel bad. When I saifd "This forum," I thought I was posting in GD.

[diamondsoul]

20. HA HA! I scrolled back up and looked!

:evilgrin: I'm forever having to do that just to try to recall where I want to check back.

[corgigrrl]

34. yeah, i'm not liking it here much anymore either

I'm not a flamer, I am a Dean supporter, and I have to say, I'm about done with DU too. It's all about character assassination at this point.

It's logical that a lot of folks are ganging up on Dean. He's the frontrunner, he's not a progressive, many of his positions are not "liberal," so there's lots of "flaming" about his record that can go on. Guess what? Dean supporters already know this stuff -- we're going with the man because we hope that he is the independent thinker he presents himself, because he was a brave and early critic of the war and Bush (like DK but somehow -- and this matters -- he got his message heard).

What makes me sad is that folks like Nicholas seem more interested in pursuing this bashing path than convincing us what is great about HIS candidate. I've been saddened by the limpness of Kerry's campaign, maybe it will get more energetic now -- all Dems will benefit from energizing all parts of our base.

Kucinich supporters are very principled people and seem frustrated that progressives are not supporting their man in the numbers they'd hoped. No, we're not. But at least you more often point out what you like about Kucinich then slam on others. As I've stated before, Kucinich could never be my candidate because he spent most of his political career assuming he had a say over the contents of my uterus. Just the facts. Also DK talks about a universal single-payer system as if believing in it were the same thing as passing it. A lot of us believe in it, including the Clintons. Who blew a lot of political capital seeing it go down the drain.

I looked at the candidates early on, and I have to say the vote for the war resolution is a hard one for me to get past, at least at the primary level. If Kerry had inspired me (and I've listened) I would have seriously considered him. But again, I have to agree with folks on this board that the discussions here are just so typically bitter. We are all the GOP's dream come true, with a blood-soaked candidate staggering towards GWB.

[Mairead]

57. Don't you think you should get your facts straight?

Also DK talks about a universal single-payer system as if believing in it were the same thing as passing it. A lot of us believe in it, including the Clintons. Who blew a lot of political capital seeing it go down the drain.

The Clintons never proposed a single-payer system. They proposed what Dean is proposing: keeping the insurance companies' hands in our pockets. After the Clinton frankenplan was down the plughole, Hightower asked Bill 'why didn't you propose a simple, single-payer plan', to which Clinton responded 'I thought it would be easier to pass one that kept the insurance companies involved. I guess I was wrong'.

If you're wrong about such a easy-to-check fact as that, what makes you think you're right about more complex questions?

[burr]

22. Does this mean that Kerry isn't the antichrist?

If you are christ, this could make Edwards the antichrist..or is it the other way around? :shrug:

My faith can get me through this, with the grace of god.

[jbw121]

26. new website

www.kerrypioneers.org

'nuff said

[burr]

28. I view this as cynical idealism...

give me money, and we can have a dialogue. :pals:

[Ripley]

27. Why do you read posts you don't like?

Who forces you to read any particular threads? Get off it bub with the Christ shit. NO ONE has ever called Dean Christ. You and others here today are really stooping in the mud to be screaming such outright lies. Why are you offended by someone being proud to support a candidate? Why don't you tell me why you are proud to support Edwards?

Oh, thought so.

[renie408]

42. I have a horse named Ripley

I think she is foaling tonight, as a matter of fact. We are headed back out to the barn to hopefully catch her in the act.

I think being enthusiastic about a candidate is great. I post all sorts of Pro-Edwards stuff here. I make it a point to try to make at least one pro-Edwards post a day. Obviously, you missed my posts about his views on fiscal responsibility, his economic plan, his education plan and his speech on foreign relations.

If I have told any lies, I apologize for them and would be happy to have them pointed out for me. I mean it. Happy. I don't have a problem with being wrong or with admitting it. It happens all the time.

[CWebster]

52. In the meantime

It is not necessary to git on your haughty high horse to dis others.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

43. I truly cannot wait till the primary season is over.

[Evanstondem]

44. Dean & Kerry Supporters

I'm a Dean supporter who agrees with some of what you say...
but you're starting to sound like the people you're complaining about!

[CWebster]

53. No bias there

Wonder if Dean supporters have a site expressly for comparing Dean-Kucinich? Didn't think so.

But here is the difference---we already have a realistic assessment and still recognize the world we live in isn't ideal.