Dean wants to "internationalize" occupation fo Iraq same as Kerry

[DJcairo]

By bringing in more arabic speaking troops. Funny how he copies positions.

[Egnever]

1. LOL that was Deans position from the get go

Funny how you only notice it after Kerry apes it.

[XanaDUer]

2. Actually,

Kerry suggested this in September, 2002, well before Dean. So who is apeing whom?

">For the sake of our country, the legitimacy of our cause
>and our ultimate success in Iraq, the administration must
>seek advice and approval from Congress, laying out the
>evidence and making the case. Then, in concert with our
>allies, it must seek full enforcement of the existing
>cease-fire agreement from the United Nations Security
>Council. We should at the same time offer a clear ultimatum
>to Iraq before the world: Accept rigorous inspections
>without negotiation or compromise. Some in the
>administration actually seem to fear that such an ultimatum
>might frighten Saddam Hussein into cooperating. If Saddam
>Hussein is unwilling to bend to the international
>community's already existing order, then he will have
>invited enforcement, even if that enforcement is mostly at
>the hands of the United States, a right we retain even if
>the Security Council fails to act. But until we have
>properly laid the groundwork and proved to our fellow
>citizens and our allies that we really have no other
>choice, we are not yet at the moment of unilateral
>decision-making in going to war against Iraq"

Link: http://www.massgreens.org/pipermail/needtoknow/2002-September/000206.html

[Forkboy]

3. Here's a wacky thought

maybe,just maybe,no one is apeing anyone.Maybe they just both see this as the right way to go :shrug:

I know this theory is no fun for the people who would rather just slam whoever it is they are against :eyes:

[searchingforlight]

5. Did I miss the part where Kerry said "bring in more arabic speaking troops

Kerry doesn't own this stance and his eventual vote negates this speech since he obviously didn't stand by what he said.

This idea that people have about being forced remain with a previous statement given the fact that new information has come to light does not hold water. That is what we're fighting for - a President who can read and consider the facts and make judgments on where things stand today, not one who is lock stepped into black and white ideas.

By the way, this idea has also been presented by France (those pesky French) and John McCain (the other Republican).

[Egnever]

14. Sry but

This is Dean on meet the press in july of 2002 two months before your quote he is allready condeming bush for his refusal to bring the world into the process. Ill tell you what though ill extend my hand to you and say they both espouse more UN involvement. But theres no way in hell Dean is copying Kerry


"this comes to the fundamental disagreement I have with the president on foreign policy. The president has been an isolationist. The president had withdrawn until September 11 from the world, and to this day, still refuses to sign many of the kind of international agreements that we have. I think the United States has to be involved, and I think the United States, contrary to what the president has said, has got to engage in nation building. We have failed to do that. So there’s no rationality for the behavior of the terrorists, and they should be prosecuted and I support the president’s war on terrorism. Where I’d fundamentally disagree with the president is the fact that America has withdrawn from the world and we, for our own national security and defense policy, ought to be building societies, we ought to engage in nation building in other countries and not do the opposite.... That is a product of our withdrawal from the world, and we cannot do that. Even to this day, the president has said we should not engage in nation building. The best thing for our national security in the long term is to engage in nation building. And what I’m interested in is changing Afghanistan, changing what’s going on in the Palestinian—among the Palestinians, so that there is no base of support for those terrorists, and that involves more than just military action."

[kwolf68]

20. No need to argue with the Dean crowd

They just make up stuff as they go along. I have never seen a more deluded crowd of people in my life. If he had the positions of Dennis Kucinich I could understand their passionate devotion to the man, but he's no better than Republican Lincoln Chafee which is to say...pretty good, but not worth the idolatry.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

25. Read post # 14 for more "made up stuff."

[clar]

4. Neither. Is. Copying. The. Other.

It's the only intelligent position to take. They share the same opinion.

Work on the civility thing, Eric. And, oh yeah, read Dr. Funk's recent post.

[sandnsea]

7. See, here it is

There has been post after post after post about Kerry copying Dean. For weeks now. But there's ONE post about Dean copying Kerry and it's bashing and uncivil. That is denial. It's the most bizarre thing I've ever seen in my life. Almost as bizarre as the devotion Freepers have towards Bush and THAT is the thing many Kerry people are mostly trying to get across.

There is NO logical reason to think Dean has some unique and different position on Iraq than Kerry has. It is and has been almost identical. Alot of their positions are identical. And when Dean 'evolves' into a new position, it's usually where Kerry had been all along. THAT is what drives ME, personally, out of my tree. Support Dean if you find his personality more appealing, that's understandable. But to say the two have these extreme differences and to quote Dean as anti-Iraq war and Kerry as pro-war just doesn't wash. They both thought Saddam was dangerous, Dean is qouted as saying Saddam had or was seeking nuclear weapons, Dean was saying inspectors needed to do the job which is why Kerry voted for the Authorization, Dean said war should be on the table as a last resort, it's all the SAME thing. Yet somehow or other, Deanies wrap it around in their head as something completely different. Now, I guess, Dean is saying there needs to be Middle Eastern troops which Kerry has been saying for months. It doesn't matter to me whether it's copying or not, it's just why be sooo against Kerry when the policies end up being the SAME! I don't understand it.

And yes I'm generalizing Deanies and I don't know enough about YOU to put YOU in that category. If you don't fit the generalization, fine. But this is my overall view at this moment.

[clar]

8. I've been posting

the same thing over and over. We need to be more civil- on both sides. Perhaps I'm just not inflammatory enough to get noticed. The whole Kerry Dean thing is out of control. It's demonstrating to me that collectively we just don't know how to behave. Sad really. If you engage in this bullshit, whether you're a Kerry partisan or a Dean partisan, you lack self-control and perspective. How stupid are these flame wars? Very.

[sandnsea]

10. Yep, like when you said Dennis was shrill

That was civil.

[JohnKleeb]

11. good observation I saw it sand

and if people still think he is shrill, you obviously didnt see him on the daily show, he was really good and had a great sense of humor like always.

[IraqPeaceTeam]

19. Hey it's not the DUers' fault...

There has been post after post after post about Kerry copying Dean. For weeks now. But there's ONE post about Dean copying Kerry and it's bashing and uncivil.>>>

if Kerry has no supporters to stick up for him }(

Except for maybe brainless morons from Mass whose only reason to vote for Kerry is he's "better than Bush" and they can't be bothered to do some research about the governor of the most prosperous state in their area, which also happens to be their neighbor up north. Oh, and selfsaid moron doesn't post here, he's just some dork I met on AOL.

Dean all the way!

[DrGonzoLives]

21. Bashing and uncivil?

You have a very unique definition of those terms.

As Forkboy said above, the most likely explanation is that each came to that conclusion independtley, which is no fun for the "I HATE X" crowds around here.

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

6. So

you hate Dean so much that even when he has an idea you like, you have to put him down. Interesting...

[genius]

9. Dean's position changes so much

it's hard to keep up with it. I've noticed that sometimes Dean doesn't even keep up with his own positions as in the AFL-CIO debate.

[w4rma]

12. Does Kerry support or oppose the war? What is his position? (n/t)

[DJcairo]

13. He supported the threat of corse as a way to get Iraq to comply

Unfortunaltey, in our system of government, only the president has the right to declare war. Kerry's vote was a vote for inspections - NOT for war. It would be nice if those out there concerned about Kerry's stand on this issue took the time to read the Iraq War Resolution. It is not a resolution calling or declaring war. Not even close. IN fat it is a resolution requiring the president to garner support at the UN. The prupose was to present with a united American political will to press for inspections. The fact that the international process was cut short and thwarted by Bush was not the fault of congress. It is in part due to this resolution that the UN voted unanimlously to force Iraq to accept inspectors. Without the United States full support behind this resolution Iraq woulds have sought to divide and Bush would not have felt empowered to go in fron of the UN. What he did afterwards is regrettabe, but it has nothing to do with a vote for or against this resolution.

[Egnever]

15. No its permission to act unilateraly if the UN doesnt comply

short and sweet not prety but thats what it was. It said he had to try to get the Un to act before acting Unilateraly. Thats it.

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

16. Read responses to your own posts

You said (yesterday you said the same misstatement): only the president has the right to declare war.

You are clearly uninformed of this, even when you've been told otherwise. Congress has the sole right to declare war.

And again, anyone who couldn't see that Bush was blindly focused on war has no business becoming President. I don't know any informed person who thought Bush wanted to exhaust all the UN effort possible before striking Iraq. A vote for the IWR was a chicken-shit way to act 'patriotic' instead of voting with the Biden-Lugar which would have forced the UN to put inspectors back on the ground and given Saddam a time limit to comply, THEN Bush would have had to go back to Congress to ask for a resolution to invade.

[eileen from OH]

17. Um. . .I think you may be misinformed. . .

Only CONGRESS shall declare war. Don't know that it says anywhere that Congress can declare that the President can declare war if and when he wants. This was the crux of Robert Byrd's most eloquent speech before the war.

My big prob with Kerry is that he basically said he was fooled by Bush into voting for the war, but even after he knew he was fooled, that's okay, because the war was a good thing. Huh??? This is a guy, who was sandbagged by an American President, saying he's the best guy to handle foreign relations?

eileen from OH

[molly]

24. Presidents have gone to war without congress

take a look at Kosovo.

[DrGonzoLives]

22. Read your Constitution

Only Congress has the right to declare war, not the President. The President can only ask for war to be declared. Nice try.

[renie408]

18. That was quick.

So much for avoiding bashing.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

26. The "bashing" won't disappear until around mid-March of 2004.

When the Dem nominee becomes apparent. Then the healing can begin. Until then, get used to it.

[molly]

23. I thought he wanted us to get out of Iraq?

I was under the impression that all of his supporters were anti-war? When and why did he change his stance?

[killbotfactory]

27. Kerry supported the unilateral invasion of Iraq.

You know, the thing that got us into this whole mess to begin with.

Dean was always calling for international cooperation.

That attack was so lame.