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Howard Dean: the Progressive Anti-War Candidate?

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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 02:30 PM
Original message
Howard Dean: the Progressive Anti-War Candidate?
A complete article discussing all of Deans policy stances and flip flops by Vermonmt Democrats and Progressives.


Some Vermonters Give Their Views
By DONNA BISTER, MARC ESTRIN
and RON JACOBS
(The Editorial Collective of the Old North End RAG)

Howard Dean the liberal, anti-war candidate? The laughter rings most loudly in Vermont.

As Dean's candidacy caught fire over the summer, a number of articles have appeared on the net examining his history and current stance on important national and international issues. They all point to a Clintonesque Republicrat whose stances are not far from that of the current administration.

Foreign Policy

Although he publicly opposed attacking Iraq -- a smart political move setting him apart from the other Democratic candidates -- Dean recently declared in a Washington Post interview that he is now opposed to a pullout of US troops from Iraq. According to the interview, he now feels we must stay as a matter of national security, and not allow another anti-American regime to develop. Of course, events on the ground seem to indicate that the occupation itself is what is creating anti-Americanism in Iraq, but most politicians wont acknowledge that. Deans basic objection to the war was to the Bush administrations unilateral approach, without UN approval. But what about Washington-driven wars that are not unilateral? What if the Security Council were arm-twisted into support? What about multilateral wars like the war on Iraq in 1991, or the ones on Yugoslavia and Afghanistan? Plain and simple--Dean supported them.

http://www.counterpunch.org/jacobs08292003.html
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ErasureAcer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 02:37 PM
Response to Original message
1. I'm laughing here as well. hahahaha
www.kucinich.us
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pasadenaboy Donating Member (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
2. I understand Dean's postion on the war but


Can you clarify Kerry's position again. He authorized it, but didn't support it?

I never quite understood that. Maybe you can explain it to me.
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molly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. You would understand it if you did your research
it was all over DU today from the MTP interview.
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KaraokeKarlton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 02:08 AM
Response to Reply #3
20. What he's been saying sure isn't consistent with what I just found
Edited on Mon Sep-01-03 02:10 AM by KaraokeKarlton
The Senate Foreign Relations Committee met to discuss the division within the United Nations Security Council over how to handle Iraq. Sen. John Kerry (D-MA) called the proposed U.N. Security Council resolutions paper tigers dealing with the Saddam Hussein that we compared to Hitler. Chairman Jesse Helms (R-NC) observed that Saddam Hussein seeks to acquire weapons of mass destruction regardless of any cost to the Iraqi people. and called on the administration to unify the UN Security Council in its resolve to maintain sanctions. Sen. Sam Brownback (R-KS) went further, calling on the administration to give financial support to Iraqi opposition groups.

Thesaurus entry for "paper tiger": http://thesaurus.reference.com/search?q=paper%20tiger

 http://www.aipac.org/result.cfm?id=373
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #20
28. Your AIPAC link shows this meeting was in 1999, when Clinton

was still president, and no war was being discussed. I've read the entire transcript at another link. Committee members were questioning Ambassador Richard Butler, former head of UNSCOM, about the then-current situation in Iraq. There was agreement that Saddam was trying to develop new weapons, that he was playing the UN and the international community, and that he needed to be stopped.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say about "paper tigers."
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Can you show me any document
Edited on Sun Aug-31-03 02:56 PM by Nicholas_J
Authorizing Bush's attack on the war, because no such authorizatrion exists in the October resolution. Find the exact wording where congress stated go to war, on whatever terms you choose.

The only people who beleive the act was an authorization to war was those who took Deans lies about it as truth but there is NO LEGAL basis for considering it to be so.
A federal court accepted the act as PROHIBINTG the president from going to war in a an attempt to prevent the president from using orce, the the judge stated that the courts had no legal right to issue an injunction against the prtesident.

It accepted the case, which by law meanss it accepted the arguments of the people who submitted the case that the act was a valid statement of NON-SUPPORT for unilateral action. If the position of the appellants was non-justifiable, that is they tried to use a declaration of war to stop a war, the judges would not have accepted the case. They did.
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pasadenaboy Donating Member (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. is this the part of the resolution
that doesn't authorize force? I think kerry was quite naive if he thought giving a guy like W a blank check like this wouldn't lead us into war.

This joint resolution may be cited as the `Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002'.
SEC. 2. SUPPORT FOR UNITED STATES DIPLOMATIC EFFORTS. The Congress of the United States supports the efforts by the President to--
(1) strictly enforce through the United Nations Security Council all relevant Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq and encourages him in those efforts; and
(2) obtain prompt and decisive action by the Security Council to ensure that Iraq abandons its strategy of delay, evasion and noncompliance and promptly and strictly complies with all relevant Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq.
SEC. 3. AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES.
(a) AUTHORIZATION- The President is authorized to use the Armed Forces of the United States as he determines to be necessary and appropriate in order to--
(1) defend the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq; and
(2) enforce all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq.
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Nope
Edited on Sun Aug-31-03 08:05 PM by Nicholas_J
It REQUIRES conditions be met, that WERE NOT MET...so in no way can this resolution can be used to support Bush's going to war WITHOUT meeting the conditions. Read it...it does not say, you can go to war unilaterally but must meet strict conditions before congress will support Bush doing so. VERY strict conditions... "ENFORCE THROUGH THE UNITED NATIONS SECURITY COUNCIL..."



"AND ENFORCE THROUGH ALL RELEVANT SECURITY COUNCIL RESOLUTIONS..."

Which also includes the council resolution that no nation unilaterally can attack another nation unless it is under direct threat of attack by that nation.

So this resolutions was no "Vote for War", but an insistance that Bush must folllow international laws and treaty obligations to the U.N. before going to war. In that case it would be the U.N. going to war with legitimate international reasons, and nothing else, with a U.S. contingency to support the U.N.

You have proven that Congress NEVER supported the Bush attack on Iraq.

It approved the U.S. going to the U.N. to ask the U.N. to do so, and for permission to take part in the war if the U.N. decided war was the ONLY way to gains compliance.

Now show the sections that state that Bush can go to war without meeting ALL criteria set up in the act, and prove that BUSH MET THE CRITERIA..and then the act IS a vote for war...Until then It is not. Even the courts who heard the case in which the resolution was used to try to STOP the war agrees on that:

In this zone of shared congressional and presidential responsibility, courts should intervene only when the dispute is clearly framed. See Nixon, 506 U.S. at 228-29; Baker, 369 U.S. at 217. An extreme case might arise, for example, if Congress gave absolute discretion to the President to start a war at his or her will. Cf. Clinton, 524 U.S. at 423, 425 (describing President's broad explanations for use of cancellation authority). Plaintiffs' objection to the October Resolution does not, of course, involve any such claim. Nor does it involve a situation where the President acts without any apparent congressional authorization, or against congressional opposition.


The mere fact that the October Resolution grants some discretion to the President fails to raise a sufficiently clear constitutional issue. The plaintiffs argue that Congress is constitutionally forbidden from deciding that certain conditions are necessary to lead to war and then yielding to the President the authority to make the determination of whether those conditions exist. (12) The President, in this view, has power to make such determinations only in the context of repelling sudden attacks on this country or its allies. See Mitchell v. Laird, 488 F.2d 611, 613-14 (D.C. Cir. 1973). The Supreme Court recently and forcefully reiterated that, notwithstanding the Constitution's vesting of "all legislative power" in Congress, U.S. Const. art. I, § 1 (emphasis added), enactments which leave discretion to the executive branch are permissible as long as they offer some "intelligible principle" to guide that discretion. See Whitman v. Am. Trucking Ass'ns, 531 U.S. 457, 472-76 (2001) (quoting J.W. Hampton, Jr., & Co. v. United States, 276 U.S. 394, 409 (1928)). War powers, in contrast to "all legislative power," are shared between the political branches. Furthermore, the Supreme Court has also suggested that the nondelegation doctrine has even less applicability to foreign affairs. See Zemel v. Rusk, 381 U.S. 1, 17 (1965) (when delegating authority over foreign relations, Congress may leave more details to the President than in domestic affairs, short of granting "totally unrestricted freedom of choice"). The reference to nondelegation is thus of little help to plaintiffs in trying to present the type of serious issue necessary to overcome judicial restraint in the adjudication of war powers cases.

Nor is there clear evidence of congressional abandonment of the authority to declare war to the President. To the contrary, Congress has been deeply involved in significant debate, activity, and authorization connected to our relations with Iraq for over a decade, under three different presidents of both major political parties, and during periods when each party has controlled Congress. It has enacted several relevant pieces of legislation expressing support for an aggressive posture toward Iraq, including authorization of the prior war against Iraq and of military assistance for groups that would overthrow Saddam Hussein. It has also accepted continued American participation in military activities in and around Iraq, including flight patrols and missile strikes. Finally, the text of the October Resolution itself spells out justifications for a war and frames itself as an "authorization" of such a war...




http://www.ca1.uscourts.gov/cgi-bin/getopn.pl?OPINION=03-1266.01A

The courts indicate that this act spells out conditions for a war with Iraq, and that the state of affairs when the court decision was made were not sufficient to order a restraint, as the president was still engaged with the U.N. and so trying to meet the terms of the resolution. It states directly that Congress in no way
"abandoned its right to declare war" as so many Dean supporters try to state, and states that the act spells out conditions for justifications of a war. The courts have stated that this act did not give the president absolute power to start the war at will.
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pasadenaboy Donating Member (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. Let me spell it out for you
(a) AUTHORIZATION- The President is authorized to use the Armed Forces of the United States as he determines to be necessary and appropriate in order to--
(1) defend the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq; and
(2) enforce all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq.


The resolution authorized him to use the Armed Forces "as he determines to be necessary and appropriate" in order to defend the US and enforce UN resolutions.


He determined it necessary and appropriate to launch a preemptive invasion.

Your guy voted to give him the authority.

You can spin it all you want, but everyone in the country understood what authority was being given. Why do you think more than half of the democrats in the house voted against it and almost half in the senate as well?


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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 02:50 PM
Response to Original message
4. Read the WHOLE article
And then try to talk about Dean in Vemront. Where Dean STILL trails Bush by the farthest margin of any Democrat.
All poll comparing Dean to Bush have Dean losing Vermont by a supermajority.


These are pther Vermonters, and not Republicans who are discussing Dean, but Democrats and Progressives.

It is not MY stance or candidate we are discussing, but YOURS, as usiusl when there is no Defense for Deans position, you go immediately to attack other candidates. Sorry. more proof that your candidate has no valid stance on ANY of the issue noted in the articles if the only refutation you can offer is another candidates stance.
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genius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 03:17 PM
Response to Original message
6. Good post.
Thank you for all your work in looking up this information.
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Presidential Primaries:
WASHINGTON — By tradition, Labor Day is the political starting gun, the time when voters tend to notice the race for the Presidency.

Through the years, the presumptive front-runners have discovered that Labor Day is either the beginning of the glide path to the nomination and the White House or the time they acquire a giant bull’s-eye on their back.

It just depends on the political party.

“Democrats traditionally don’t have all that much respect for front-runners,” said political scientist Larry Sabato of the University of Virginia. “They view them more as targets.”

Consider a recent list of early leaders from Labor Day weekends’ past — Mario Cuomo in 1991, Gary Hart in 1987 and Ted Kennedy in 1979. All three led in national polls in September, months before the caucuses and primaries. All three never won the party’s nomination and if they’ve spent any time in the West Wing, it’s been as a visitor


http://www.theunionleader.com/prez_show.html?article=25609

With the recent Washinton Post articles on Dean, it looks like he will be wearing that giant bulls eye.

Also start going about the Internet searching to many progressive and liberal democrats styarting anti-Dean sites. Since the beginning of August, they have been springing up all over.
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poskonig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 03:22 PM
Response to Original message
7. Dean, unlike Kerry, supported Gulf War I.
Cannot Kerry tell the difference between just and unjust wars?
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Evanstondem Donating Member (306 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Just and Unjust Wars
Dean understands the difference, which is one of the reasons I am supporting him.
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #10
19. Does he...
Edited on Mon Sep-01-03 01:04 AM by Nicholas_J
Salon.com quoted him in February as saying he favored a U.N.-backed multilateral force to disarm Saddam Hussein. And he added, "If the U.N. in the end chooses not to enforce its own resolutions, then the U.S. should give Saddam 30 to 60 days to disarm, and if he doesn't, unilateral action is a regrettable but unavoidable choice."

http://www.zogby.com/soundbites/ReadClips.dbm?ID=5215

or the original:

http://www.howardsmusings.com/2003/02/20/salon_on_the_campaign_trail_with_the_unbush.html

Sounds pretty much like Dean supported attacking Iraq unilaterally here. Without proof (dean indicates in this statement that Saddam is armed,as you must be armed in order to disarm).And states that you can go without the U.N.'s support, which NONE of the other candidates but Lieberman agreed to.
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MMT Donating Member (135 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #7
26. Gulf War One was just? How so? n/t
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FreeperSlayer Donating Member (666 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 08:29 PM
Response to Original message
12. barf
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VermontDem2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 08:33 PM
Response to Original message
13. I don't disagree with Dean
thanks for posting this. :toast: Even though I already knew he was opposed to pulling troops out of Iraq since April.
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Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 08:35 PM
Response to Original message
14. No that would be kucinich
Dean was never the anti war candidate.
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dean4america Donating Member (390 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 08:49 PM
Response to Original message
15. you just don't get it
Dean is NOT anti-freaking-war, nor is he a left-liberal progressive... BUT WE, HIS SUPPORTERS, UNDERSTAND THAT. If I wanted someone who would repeal NAFTA (bad idea) and propose single-payer health care (that would never pass), I'd support Kucinich. But I am in favor of NAFTA done correctly, and single-payer will not pass anytime soon. I also am a firm believer in Dean's stance on guns, balanced budgets, and education.

Oh, and we can't just pull out of Iraq... lest the entire middle east goes to shit -- there's a right way of doing things (like, UN cooperation, a foreign policy based on respect instead of fear, etc.).

keep spreading the misinformation-it only helps Dean in the end, anyway.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-03 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. you say you understand this, then say it's misinformation? which is it?
First you say you understand that Dean is not progressive, which is basically the point of the cited article ("Howard Dean: the Progressive Anti-War Candidate?"), then you follow up by calling it misinformation. There is a contradiction there.
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. Dean did everything possible
To keep everyone confused as to his stance, when it was convenient and to gain support, he allowed himself to be perceived and held up as "The Anti War" candidate.

When it looked like support for the war was gaining, he manuvered by talking tough.

Dean supporters state that is is not his fault if people dont hear his message.

It is his fault when he is puposefully being vague.

ANd Dean has a record of NOT allowing himself to be pinned down to any point of view for which he could possibly be called to task for...

Remember afew weeks ago when Kucinich accused Dean of stating he would change Social Security.

Every Dean supporter on DU was hitting the oboard with EVERY possible nuance of the word "ENTERTAIN" regarding his statement that he would "entertain the idea of raising the retirement age".

Well regardless of their attempts to define what the word meant, even Dean knew what he meant and apologized and said he was wrong to say that. Which does not mean Dean is sincerely sorry. He is scared that he will lose the baby boomers who are close enough to retirement to taste it. And sionce Dean has always gone back on his word when he has done thinghs like this, I am certain that the other candidates and the media will be constantly reminding the public that Dean has changed his mind many times adn has a record of going back to his original plans once he is elected.
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VermontDem2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 04:58 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. Dean did everything possible?
rotflmao. I knew what his position on the Iraq war was LOUD AND CLEAR 4 months leading up to the war, 2 weeks after the war started he stated his post Iraq plan on the DeanforAmerica.com sight which favored leaving troops in there for about 10-20 months, bringing international support and so on.
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unfrigginreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 05:06 AM
Response to Reply #18
22. It's your mainstream press that is calling him an anti-war candidate.
He's been refuting that since day one, always stating that he was for the first Gulf War and the actions in Afghanistan. No question about it...Dean is not an anti-war candidate.
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acerbic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 05:14 AM
Response to Reply #18
23. "To keep everyone confused as to his stance"
Propaganda whore: "DEAN IS TOO CONSERVATIVE AND PRO-WAR!!!!! I JUST FEEL IT!!!!"
The same propaganda whore: "DEAN IS TOO LIBERAL AND ANTI-WAR!!!!! I JUST FEEL IT!!!!"
The same propaganda whore again: "SEE, I TOLD YOU SO!!! DEAN IS CONFUSING!!!!"
:eyes:
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VermontDem2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 05:18 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. rotflmao
your post made me laugh, I don't know what it was but your post made me crack up. :)
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. Dean is an effective politician
in that he manages to appear all things to all people. So it is important in evaluating Dean to examine his actual record.
What did he actually do in Vermont as governor?

Did he stand up for family farms, or factory farms? (http://www.vtce.org/deancrisisagvt.html)

Did he fight for or against campaign finance reform? (http://www.vpirg.org/campaigns/financeReform/cfr_page111.html)

Did he fight for civil liberties or for increased state power? (http://rutlandherald.com/Archive/Articles/Article/31792)

Did he govern as a progressive or as a conservative? (http://www.counterpunch.org/jacobs08292003.html)
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Evanstondem Donating Member (306 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-03 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #18
27. Dean Spoke Clearly
Dean's position on the war was much clearer than the position held by a certain other Democratic presidential candidate from a Northeastern state.

The statement you cite merely shows that Dean would consider going it alone in a hypothetical, unlikely situation. I agree with him that totally ruling out this option would have been unwise.
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