Dean, Kerry, Kucinich and Wisconsin

[DannyRed]

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0828-05.htm

An example of ADULT analysis of the candidates.

Dean: Aggressive, hitting some of the right notes, organizing an innovative and fresh-look campaign that will get new blood into the action.

Kerry: Talking the talk that the unions and blue-collar/white-collar workers in the industrial heartland want to hear.

Kucinich: Saying what the farmers want to hear, and saying it loud and proud in the places where the farmers are, with support from people that the farmers like.

So, what's to complain about.

I hope that ALL THREE campaigns are reading that article and LEARNING from each other...

and that when the chips come down, they ALL THREE contribute their knowledge and political base to the winning nominee.

Gang tackling works.

[ErasureAcer]

1. If Kucinich received any mainstream media attention...

he would be the favorite to win the whole thing.

Even still, I think he has a solid 10% in every state...despite what the polls say.

[JohnKleeb]

2. yep :)

and you know what. I found the phrase to describe our problem and here it is
"bitter irony"
You may hear me use it a lot but to me it makes a lot of sense.

[DannyRed]

3. I disagree...

In terms of most issues, Kucinich comes closest to meeting my standards, while on several issues and on several votes that I think are very important he falls short.

However, given the shallow nature of the media, and the hypnotized character of the average citizen when it comes to politics, I do not think that Kucinich has very much appeal outside the Liberal, activist, self-informed electorate...which, in my opinion, comprises an unfortunately small percentage of the general population -- even among Democrats...

I think you are letting your admiration for the man obscure the unfortunate political reality...

And your initial caveat "IF Kucinich received any mainstream media attention" tells the entire story:

1) All things remaining equal, he will not receive that attention for a wide array of reasons...mostly because the mainstream media is owned by and staffed by corporatist idiots who have no interest in giving anyone like Kucinich any airtime or media attention.

2) Kucinich's campaign, for whatever reason, has failed to generate "buzz" -- is this a failing on their part? It could be. He seems to be running a fairly typical "progressive grassroots" campaign like many of those from yesteryear. He needs to grab attention and do it big, to FORCE the media to pay attention.

3) Dean has been able to do this for many reasons...can Kucinich match up? I don't know.

All of this does not mean that I do not respect or like Kucinich or his politics...but it does mean that you, as Kucinich supporters and/or activists, need to figure out how to generate some serious buzz, to MAKE the media pay attention.

Learn from Dean.

There is no harm in copying what is working. None at all.

How about a massive concert tour, with Willie as the headliner?

Make some buzz!

[JohnKleeb]

4. Look danny dont give me hell for this

but I think Dean seemed to gain his popularity during the debate to the war time, and I think Kucinich an active congressman worked his butt off against that war. I find this to be and I will say it again but it is true and its a bitter irony.

[DannyRed]

5. Yes, it is...

And Kucinich deserves a lot of credit for the stand he took...Dean took the same stand, but with less personal career or political risk.

However, Dean managed (or his campaign did) to convert that (correct and admirable) stand into attention.

How can Kucinich do the same?

Generate the attention.

Grab the spotlight...if you can do it, there are many who would certainly "entertain" (heh heh) notions of supporting Kucinich over Dean...

[JohnKleeb]

6. thats a good question

How we are gonna do it I dont know. My reading has told me that most are attracted to Dean by his opposition to the war and his ablity to fight yet I think Dennis is equal if not stronger in that no offense but Dean from what Ive been told was in favor in Biden-Lugar yet Dennis wasnt, and on standing up, the prayer for america among others. Its a bloody shame and I would love to correct it. Look danny call me stubborn or idealistic I dont care whos the most popular in my eyes its about beign right. On edit I havent seen anyone say that they would entertain the thought of supporting DK in your camp, Ive seen kucinich as a backup.

[DannyRed]

7. Many people

that I know personally, and in the media have explicitly said that they would and do support Kucinich over Dean IF he were pulling in as many and as diverse a crowd as Dean is...IF he were generating as much enthusiasm and as much "buzz" as Dean is.

The fact is that Dean is running a really smart campaign -- that model is not and should not be considered "patented", nor should copying it be any kind of sin...

IF Kucinich can and does start generating the enthusiasm among a wide swath of diverse people, then many who support Dean now would probably either try to balance supporting both, or might even switch.

I think the same goes for Kerry....actually I think the same goes for ANY candidate, especially candidates who are outspoken about the wrong-headedness of the war, like Graham, Moseley-Braun, and others.

I think many anti-war folks would have some trouble supporting Kerry, and a lot more trouble supporting Edwards, Gephardt, or Lieberman...

[JohnKleeb]

8. I dunno what does he have to

look I am not lamenting but Kucinich worked hard against the war and he used his influence yet he is sitll doubted. I dont like the idea of this being a school election it feels too the most popular must be the best, I dont like that, and frankly I think there will be a lot more I dont like about a Dean adminstration than a Kucinich one. I dont like compromising my ideals. Its still August too.

[DannyRed]

10. Be honest,

There is going to be a lot about ANY administration headed by ANY of the current candidates that you will not like.

I honestly do not think that ANY of the potential administrations by ANY of the current candidates will be very different...they will all have to work within the confines of congress and the courts (both currently stacked with drooling rightwing morons)...they will all have to work within the confines of a huge debt, a huge deficit, an economy in a shambles, and two or more ongoing wars around the world...and a population that wants things to be better NOW.

Electing Kucinich, or Dean, or anyone...is not a revolution, and frankly, the ONLY way to solve most of the above-named problems would be a revolution...

As for the popularity contest aspect...well, that is an unfortunate reality of the modern, shallow, media driven idiocy we have allowed and enabled over the last three decades...it sucks, but there it is, and we must deal with it.

Dean is, actually, not all that handsome, charismatic, or charming. He's short, bombastic, and can be quite nasty.

However, his campaign strategy and and methods have managed to focus those aspects:

Instead of "short" he's become "feisty"...instead of "bombastic", he's become "passionate" and instead of "nasty" he's become "a pit-bull attacking Bush"...

These subtle and not so subtle twists on perceived image are not accidental, they are intentional, and they are a result of some seriously smart campaign and PR strategies.

They should be (and are being) copied by the other candidates that have some "image problems"

[JohnKleeb]

11. well

I dont want a revolution but I want change not just socially but economically as well you know damn well that Dean isnt an economic liberal like Kucinich is.

[DannyRed]

15. Ummm...

I don't actually know that.

From my perspective, there ain't much difference...

And the changes you claim to support will not come through the election of Kucinich to the Presidency.

Nor will they come from the election of Dean to the presidency.

Those changes will only occur if a broad based revolutionary upsurge claims the reins of power from the two ensconced, establishment parties.

Your faith in one man and his rhetoric is great, but misplaced...he cannot, and will not be able to or interested in the kinds of changes that he is talking about.

Sorry...

[JohnKleeb]

18. Then why the hell do I see Dean regarded as the great hope

Ive seen it so much. Look I dont wanna be frustrated and rant and holler but who says his goals cant be accomplished you know to think that Dean was once in the shadows is hard to believe but he was and you know a lot of people like him.

[DannyRed]

22. Because of

the campaign, not because of the policies, strategies, or stances.

[JohnKleeb]

24. I think I see but isnt policy and stances

are what makes great men and women of history fight for what they believe in. I understand that but if your point is so, why have I seen him called the most skilled politican since FDR and I dont think its my guy I think its a lot of people not Dean though. Look I am impressed with what he has done but I think we cant solely base our support on the campaigning, hes a good man I dont doubt but hes not the best on the issues, and I think with the exception of the war Kerry surpasses him. Campaigning does help but issues are what people remember, and if he has nothing that really inspires me, then as of now hes not the guy I support, Ive seen Kucinich speak granted he hasnt been as blessed with the money you all got but is he a good speaker? I sure as hell say so.

[DannyRed]

26. Comparisons to past greats

are irrelevant and nonsensical in the modern media-dominated, made-for-tv world of power politics.

It is unfortunate, but it is true.

Political stances and reality get swamped by imagery and spin.

The fact that Dean has managed to find a trapdoor in that schema speaks well for him and for those who copy him or build on what his campaign has done.

Again, at the moment, given the basic similarities on most issues shared by ALL the candidates....

For me the way to go is with the candidate that is doing something new and different that has the potential to change the way the current political game show is run....

Again, Kucinich is a good man, with good policies and good ideas...there are many of those littered throughout the record...and many of them failed because they could not break through the media barrier...the guardians of propriety and the arbiters of "who is electable"...

Dean seems to have broken that barrier...Kucinich needs to try to do it too...

How?

Copy Dean's campaign, elaborate on it, expand it...make it work...

[JohnKleeb]

28. its not just that

they never mention him, I have a huge problem with that. Look he is a unique candiate really. He's been showing it, and I hate to complain but the media is probably ignoring him for a reason and it smells very funny. No matter what he does Kucinich seldom gets press, Dean originally got press for his anti war in Iraq belief am I right? people naturally heard and listening to Dean thought that he was the most anti war in iraq person but Kucinich was actually the one who had a large part in organizing the anti war coalition in Congress. If Dean wanted to prove he had something special about him he would have spoke at a war rally, I have heard nothing about such a thing yet I know Kucinich did. Kucinich actually talked about the war and how unjust it may be long before Dean came on to the spotlight in his brilliant prayer for America. I think Dennis may need more money and need to work a little bit on stuff but overall its the fact he is seldom mentioned and thus people have no idea who he is that he has little standing in the polls.

[helleborient]

38. Sounds like how Illinoisans felt when Paul Simon ran for Prez...

The press couldn't get past the bowtie. It wasn't conspiracy, but it was unfortunate.

[JohnKleeb]

42. but whats the thing the press will nitpick about

I know they will find a lot, knowing them :(. I've been told his ethnicity is kinda a thorn in his side, gee god forbid we arent all WASPS and if I ever run for congress or president will my ethnicity be played on. That said I still support DK from my heart and my brain because I think if we give a chance he can do pretty good stuff, heh that was silly but its not like he doesnt fight and in fact I think hes a bigger fighter than most think.

[helleborient]

46. Rod Blagojevich used humor...

In his campaign for gov. here in Illinois - believe me a lot of his supporters can't pronounce his name.

It's tough...believe me, I do sympathize.

[helleborient]

37. He's the great hope to defeat Bush...

Not create a progressive revolution.

For a lot of us, getting rid of George II is the FIRST thing...the real progressive takeover comes when the grassroots start throwing out Republican members of congress and state legislatures.

Dennis or Howard won't do that for us...we have to do that ourselves.

[helleborient]

36. Some of the Dean and Kucinich supporters here...

Know each other quite well and share ideas about generating interest.

We have 46 signed up for Dean Meetups and 24 for Kucinich...everybody else is at 6 or less. So there is some Kucinich buzz here, in a fairly strongly college-oriented town.

[JohnKleeb]

40. yea

he is in 2nd place at meet up Dennis is. I expect him to make a beautiful speech well he often does but knowing how labor is one of his big issues on labor day I expect him to do something big. Its not like hes not using meetup granted hes not at your level but hes there and eventually will be somewhere.

[helleborient]

35. Strong campaigning...

Takes advantage of whatever is going on in the current climate.

Do you begrudge Bill Clinton taking advantage of an economy in the dumps under George I?

Dean took advantage of the frustration of war protesters - for whatever reasons, he beat the Kucinich supporters to the press rooms.

[JohnKleeb]

39. I do ask for Dennis to be given more credit yes

No I have no problem with taking advantage of issues. I do think he deserves proper credit and above all respect and acknowledgement yet you dont or hardly see the latter from the media. Yes I know he doesnt have what Dean has but if its all about the fact Dean has money then I am gonna reinforce the fact that my grandfather was right, that its all about green(money).

[helleborient]

41. You have to hound the media, be innovative, and be persistent

They will not come to your door asking.

I direct a public library and we've done pretty well in getting local newspaper attention, but we have to work at it.

I saw media about DK when he was standing up in Congress opposing the war...otherwise I wouldn't have know anything about him...I alerted my wife to listen to him.

We both did, and we read the candidate positions submitted to moveon.org and both decided to support Dean at that point. We're not uneducated, and we did pay attention to DK. I don't know why he lost the moveon primary, but winning it was one of the keys to major press coverage for Dean.

In the case of the moveon primary, DK simply lost...most of those folks in my opinion are pretty intelligent and probably read his opinions, he did come in second.

[JohnKleeb]

43. 2nd thats still good

Look maybe many are being pragmatic I still dont think Dean would be best for an all around liberal like me. Ive been talking about repealing Taft-Hartley for a while and you know who else wants to yes Kucinich does. I can connect with him too on some things, I wasnt poor, I am not a Ohioan, nor I am small in height but heres what I do, we both share some ancestry, we both have a balkans country he has Croatia and I have Slovenia and Irish ancestry, he had a heart problem, he remembers where he came from and I remember kinda in the same sense where I came from, my mom's parents didnt grow up in the best settings but they are two of the most enlightened and smart people I know.

[helleborient]

48. Please, keep up the good work!

We do need candidates saying what DK is saying...and he is fantastic in Congress. I hope his voice is there at the convention in whatever form, and if he's not the candidate, I hope he is a key part of the cabinet or congressional leadership when we defeat Bush.

[JohnKleeb]

51. either way win or lose the primary ; Dennis still wins

I speak of what he is about. He has earned the right to be president, knowing him on the issues, his subperp work ethic, and his understanding of poverty because he endured it himself will make him an amazing president. Win or lose I will still be proud of him and who knows maybe he could run again. I see Dennis as a labor secretary in a more economically liberal adminstration I dont see Dean appointing him, Gephardt I do see though. Kucinich like Gephardt has marched with the laborers. Dennis also didnt win his first election for city council man but later on he became mayor. So he'll be back I think.

[liberalnurse]

9. Let face it, all the candidates have to

jump out of a plane or something to get media attention. Kucinich rarely even makes the SW Ohio newspapers...his home state! I do not get the NE Ohio papers, like the Cleveland Plain Deanler....It typically has the most political columns.....Maybe I will start picking it up come to think of it...

I just can't believe the cable news stations are soo.....sensational driven. I never would of concieved even 12 years ago, that the cable news in this country would be so full of propaganda. I always thought it was a tatctic of foreign nations like USSR or China......I always had a trust that the news would be reported in a good faith effort.

Things have really turned a nasty corner, that spiral drain motion....


The current media would rather babble endlessly on Kobe, Laci or Arnold.....Can you picture Huntley & Brinkley doing this night after night? No way...The candidates would be the mainstream stories. For the 2000 election primaries, they got lots more attention!

[DannyRed]

12. LiberalNurse...

Having been exposed to the Chinese media (through my wife and her family), and having been educated on the Soviet media via my colleagues and friends who grew up in the Eastern Bloc and in the USSR...

There is a glaring difference between those and ours...

See, in those countries...EVERYONE KNOWS (or knew) that it's propaganda, and reads it accordingly.

And, frankly, of late, the Peoples' Daily, Xinhua, and the rest have been a heck of a lot more reliable than ANY American media outlet...one example of that is the whole "dust cloud, pollution, poison issue in NYC after 9-11"

My wife was talking about that two months ago, and I said (because even though I don't trust the US media, it is an ingrained habit to trust the US media, if you know what I mean regarding conscious vs unconscious actions)....that if there was a serious problem, the EPA would have done something and the media would have been all over it...

Turns out Xinhua was way way way ahead...

[liberalnurse]

16. Thanks for validating that thought....

I listen to cable news the same way I do to *rush or Niel Bortz....I only listen to them in the car or at work since in Ohio there are no progrssive talkshows period. So I've learned to filter it first.....

I somethings work at at State Prison as the Infirmary Nurse at night. The only thing we can get out there is 700 wlw....Truck-n-Bozo.....
Well, that could be a form of hell.....actually the C.O's (correction officers are great). Anyways....I've adapted just like they did in China. I hope they teach that in school.

[JohnKleeb]

13. well

thats bullshit simply said and I've been reading articles on him through out really, and it seems that the people interviewed this is often the first time theyve heard of him. I actually think Dean is getting media coverage whether the connetion behind it is good or bad I think publicity has its ways. I think he needs to be mentioned more, it seems to be maybe I dont see things but its like Dean more often than not is portrayed as the lone ranger on issues. Now I am not insulting but if thats not bad journalism I dont know what is.

[MercutioATC]

14. Living in Cleveland, my opinion...

Well, a west 'burb, but close enough. I admire Kucinich's idealism, but I question his ability to manifest what he believes in. He saved Cleveland Public Power...that's a monumental thing. He also oversaw the bankruptcy of the city of Cleveland...not so good.

If you ask me to name the most idealistic candidate, it's Kucinich, hands down.

I think the American people (at least most of them) want to be inspired, but they also want a pragmatic approach to problems. I don't think Kucinich is willing to compromise to get what he can. For him, it's almost always been "all or nothing".

Again, I do like Dennis, but I'm a pragmatist. I have to support the candidate that I think can acomplish his goals, even if he doesn't shho quite so high.

[JohnKleeb]

17. Didnt Dennis actually save you all a lot of money

and your city council gave him a commendtion. Well maybe you are being pragmatic and I understand and respect it. Hes not perfect I know none of us are but I tell you while issues are important in why I support him, I want someone who stands up on a lot of things, now Kucinich you got what he did as mayor, what he did in congress about the war.

[MercutioATC]

20. Like I said, saving CPP was a great thing.

I've owned rental property in Cleveland and the tenants' choice was always CPP when they had the option. It's cheaper.

I like his healthcare position...from an IDEALISTIC point of view. Pragmatically, single-payer health care hasn't even made it through a Dem Congress, much less a Rep Congress. His "Department of Peace" is a nice idea philosophically, but I believe we can place priorities in existing agencies instead (accomplishing the same thing at a lower cost). You don't have to create a new Department to promote a philosophical approach.

These are just a couple of concerns I have. Dennis has some good things to say and I'm glad he's getting the financial support to say them.

[JohnKleeb]

21. but that said I am idealistic and will always be

Also maybe those are your concerns on Kucinich. I'll tell you mine on Dean. I will give you two. I think hes perfectly electable so I will give you my concerns and what I dont like.

I am netural on Israel-Palestine I think an open ended plan will do best, Dean and this doesnt make him evil but I disagree on this that Israel is who we should favor, I dont side with either.
Now heres one; I have always opposed the death penalty and I think its wrong, I dont wanna take chances excuting innocents and the fact its fianically not that good. So I shared my concerns of Dean, and I have others too just explainin some basic ones.

[MercutioATC]

60. I'm in agreement with you on the death penalty.

I'm against it. Period.

I'm not touting Dean as the second coming of Christ. He just jives best with my views on the issues. There are positions he's taken that I don't agree with.

[diamondsoul]

44. Valid concerns, and thank you for putting them out politely.

"I like his healthcare position...from an IDEALISTIC point of view. Pragmatically, single-payer health care hasn't even made it through a Dem Congress, much less a Rep Congress."

That's very true, however with the new announcement of support from physicians I suspect that may be easy enough to change with the right President in office. There is also the fact that they named Kucinch's plan as the one closest to the physicians' proposed plan. Howard Dean has said he'll sign it if it crosses his desk, but he's not willing to step up and fight for it from the outset. I can't support that because I think our President should be willing to fight for the people.

"His "Department of Peace" is a nice idea philosophically, but I believe we can place priorities in existing agencies instead (accomplishing the same thing at a lower cost). You don't have to create a new Department to promote a philosophical approach."

It's more than a philosophical approach, though. It's going to require a new Department to oversee all the areas where thinking has to be changed. Our schools, our streets, our families, our military and our government ALL have to revise their methods of dealing with conflict. It's easier to organize that under a single new Department dealing with that situation than it is to fragment the effort across several existing and overburdened departments.

The cost? Ask yourself if it's worth it. Is it worth it to begin changing the violence going on all around us? Is it worth it to never have another Columbine type shooting? Is it worth it to never have another bloody quagmire like Viet Nam and Iraq? Is it worth any cost to stop turning our children into violent predators? It is to me. The cost to accomplish those things isn't even an issue in my mind because the end is worth whatever price we pay.

[JohnKleeb]

45. you know what I think youre right

and thanks Ive been alone in this thread needed to be reinforced so to speak. If a Kucinich adminstration department of peace can prevent a war then I would be ever proud. Now also I heard this when Dennis was with Harkin in Iowa early this month actually it was a month ago, we have military academies like West Point and the Naval Academy but no peace academies, Dennis and Tom Harkin were saying that. That said I like Tom Harkin too who was Dennis's pick for president in 1992 in the primaries.

[diamondsoul]

49. Actually what you heard from Harkin-

was that he supports Dennis' Department of Peace and has actively worked to establish it himself in Congress, but the closest he got was the establishment of the National Peace Academy. It's an Academy most have never even heard of.

And I noticed you were handling this debate all alone. Sorry for deserting you last night, I had no idea anything would take off like this!

[JohnKleeb]

53. you didnt desert me I stayed up too late

How did I do honestly? Sometimes I feel like Dennis is Colonel John Frost on Arnhem bridge, he has the right fight but hes gonna be overrun because he is outnumbered. It was Washington's idea, I would love to see someone say that Washington what a silly person and a silly idea. The department of peace that is. Its ok, I wasnt mad but I was all alone debating but I handled myself well didnt resort to bashing or nothin. Expressed my sadness and expressed the truth of the bitter irony concept but I also expressed why I prefer Dennis any day to Dean. I am not a pacifist for the record, I do believe if we can prevent a war and we do so thats a great thing. I dont want any wars anymore. War is terrible for all people.

[diamondsoul]

57. You handled this whole thread admirably,

no question about it. Just never give in to the fear of losing.

I'm firm in my bleief that the only way to truly lose is to never try in the first place. That's one thing Dennis has reminded me of from the outset. If you don't try you can't possibly win. If you do try, you've done something, and it does count, despite what the doomsayers keep trying to tell us. It matters because WE matter, Dennis matters, and every single citizen of this country of ours matters. That's what the fight is about. The voices of the people.

[JohnKleeb]

64. victory is that more people hear him

I guess I confuse absolute victory with victory. Hes right and I really admire him day by day.

[MercutioATC]

61. I DO seeyour point, but I still can't rationalize it..

...and maybe that's the basic issue - I'm uncomfortable with idealism at this level. I'd rather see pragmatism. Absolutely no disrespect intended...they're just different stances.

[JohnKleeb]

19. Look I dont mean to be stubborn and idealistic

but I dont believe that Dean is the best for me number 1. I dont see why I can be told by a campaign that was once in shadows itself I have no chance, remember your roots something I will say till the day I die. Understand that we could have congress by next year and the goals of people like Kucinich could be possible. A republican led congress will be tough on any democrat honestly. I have my other reasons for supporting Kucinich other than the issues; there is his attempt to be in congress for every vote and he mostly suceeds. I am not an Ohioan but I think the state is lucky to have him, I think the country is though too. Look I dont like doing this but I dont like being told "oh your guy doesnt have a chance" I wont give up and even if he loses I think it will be the right fight even if I lost.

[DannyRed]

23. You need to be more

than stubborn and idealistic, and so does Dennis Kucinich.

In the current political climate he needs to be stubborn and idealistic (he is), he needs to be an outspoken fighter and an aggressive campaigner (he is), and he needs to be running an extremely innovative, attention-getting, dynamic, new, interesting and captivating campaign that changes everyone's perceptions of him as a "2nd tier" contender...

He is not doing that.

Figure out how to help him do that.

Steal ideas from other candidates. Come up with new ideas.

Innovate.

[JohnKleeb]

25. look hes been working his butt off and maybe you dont know that

but he has. I think he is pretty innovative actually, and he has good ideas. I am lucky to know who he is because I know politics but your typical person wont, hes done stuff to get on the news, yet they dont mention him. I often wonder why is that. Granted we dont have that much money but hes been running a pretty interesting campaign. Maybe you dont follow him the way I do but I think hes more special than you think.

[DannyRed]

27. Look,

You're not hearing what I am saying.

There is a REASON why he has not been making the news, or appearing on the covers of magazines...there is a REASON why he is being written off (unfairly and unjustly)...

And that reason is the flip side of why Dean IS making news and appearing on the covers of magazines.

He may be the most special candidate in the universe, ever, he may be the second coming, or "the one"

But if he can't get his damned message out then noone is going to pay attention to him no matter how great he is.

It's the campaign, the campaign the campaign.

Make a splash.

Get heard.

[JohnKleeb]

29. hes been making noise what dont you understand about that

You said his problem is that he needs to make a splash, you mean by that noise, hes been doing so for lord only know how long. Hopefully as the old saying goes good things happen to those who wait will come to Kucinich. Its only August and Ive seen people act like Dean has already won the primary christ that really disheartens the living hell out of people who support other candiates. Maybe he hasnt got much money as Dean but hes been communicating with the people just fine, and I at times think they delibartly ignore him.

[DannyRed]

30. Yes, it does suck

but it is reality...

And you have to look at HOW the money is being raised and from where to understand why Dean is getting more attention than Kucinich.

Dean started from a similar place (opposition to the current war)..that got him the same name recognition as Kucinich...

Then Dean raised as much money as Cheney in small donations...and used that money to run ads bashing Bush in Texas and in NH/Mass.

Then Dean rented an airplane and flew around the country bashing Bush and raising more than a million in small donations in 4 days...

Now he is running MORE ads in early primary states...all bashing Bush.

Kucinich is not making the same kind of attention getting, money raising moves...and he needs to.

Figure out how to do it.

Help Kucinich do it.

Use the model, push the model...make it happen...

[JohnKleeb]

31. so green is allowed to rule the way the world is

I guess the old man was right it is all about green :(. No offense but why is Dean getting so much support from those who opposed the war all the way if he supported Biden-Lugar maybe hes not telling people about it but its confusing. I dont like the fact that the one with the most money wins always, I want the one with the biggest heart and etc to win. Call me old fashion or crazy but I think my grandfather aka the old man was right when he told me that it is all about green. Money that is. Could they at least mention him that make me a little more happy but I am not gonna compromise my ideals and support Dean in the primary just because hes electable and supposely the great hope, I read today that Dean was ok with the Cuba embargo something I oppose, the death penalty, I know its not issues for some but I think issues are important.

[Egnever]

33. Not to interupt your conversation

but i think you are missing something here JK. It seems to me as though you are confusing being against the Iraq war as being the same as being against all war. I think this is where your are loosing the difference between Dean and DK when comparing them next to eachother on the Iraq war.

You seem to have the impression that Dean is somehow fooling people into thinking he is anti war. He is not antiwar.

I certainly cant speak for all of deans supporters, but I am not a total pacifist. I recognize that there are times when the country needs to be defended and that unfortunately sometimes war is what it takes to do so. I dont know if you listened to what Joe Biden was saying all the way up to the begining of the war but he was spot on if you ask me. I was paying very close atention at the time and every time joe got on and spoke i was nodding my head. There was a clear difference in the biden lugar bill as oposed to what got passed.

This is getting longer than what I intended. So i will end by saying the message I get from kucinich is a pacifist message. As a staunchly anti war person down to actually protesting let me just say pacifism wasnt what it was about for me. I felt strongly that saddam should adhere to the provisions he had agreed to but there was also no reason not to give him sufficient oportunity to comply or baring that to take the time to prove his non compliance to the world. The inspectors were on the ground they were makung progress. The minute that progress stoped my stance on the war would have hardened. But it never did even till the first shot was fired the irawis were destroying weapons. This is why i was against this war and is also why Howard Dean was against this war. I know this because he was speaking out then at the time all of this was hapening. He was clear how he felt about it and he agreed with me!

Dk seems to me to be against the war because he likes peace better. This is a great way to be IMHO but very unrealistic. In a perfect world yes but this is far from a perfect world. It is exactly DK's
Idealism (wich I love) That turns me away from him. He comes across as a dreamer, Great dreams froom my perspective but not likely to become reality any time soon nor to bring in anyone outside of the democratic party.

I would vote for DK in a second give the oportunity against bush but I think howard dean has shown that he has the right combination of message grassriits support and campaign savy to cut W off at the knees. I want to win. I want GB out nothing is more important right now it looks as if Howard is just the man that can do it.

[JohnKleeb]

34. you think I am a pacifist I am not

but I see the need to avoid unneeded wars. You're a more moderate than I am I see why you prefer Dean to Kucinich. I am not a pacifist yet I went to anti war rallies. Look its fine Dean was against the war but it is a bitter irony to me that Kucinich isnt well supported because of his stand against the war in the house, and who could forget the prayer for America. It wasnt his supposed pacificism that made him oppose the war anyhow. He believes in defense not offense and knows better than you and I that there is a lot of junk spending in DoD. Anyways you're more moderate than me, and that explains but how so many liberals people with my views have flocked to Dean thats different.

[diamondsoul]

52. True grassroots campaigns

always start out like this, John. It's normal and I'm not particularly worried. I was for a while, but I know there are things happening that will move this campaign out of the shadows rapidly.

One of the problems we Kucitizens have is that we can't let the doomspeak get to us. We have to be just as strong for Dennis as he is for us. We cannot allow ourselves to be defeated by fear, hence the quote I use. It reminds me not to allow myself to be frightened by the predictions of others and to plug away at this wall we're facing until the damned thing topples.

You, my young friend have the advantage of youthful innocence. You haven't yet been thoroughly disillusioned by the system, and I hope you never are. Your energy helps propel this movement for that very reason. You still have faith the system hasn't been detroyed from within. Unfortunately a number of the older people involved don't have that same faith, and we have to inspire it in them the same way Dennis inspires it in us. It won't be easy but I firmlybelieve it can be done, and that's why I've invested so much of my time, energy and spare funds into this campaign. It has a purpose greater than just an election outcome. There is entirely too much at stake right now to back the guy who looks good at this point in time.

[JohnKleeb]

54. fear, :) FDR would be proud

We must not be afraid Dennis has said :), FDR said things like that. I say win or lose the primary diamond we will remember this Dennis Kucinich, I am planning on giving him a birthday thread on his bday in october here at DU. My present is my undying respect and admiration for him and maybe some money.

[diamondsoul]

47. You're absolutely right, Danny.

Innovation is the key to getting Dennis seen and heard. A number of us are working our tails off to that end. I just sent an innovative idea to Dennis himself via one of his staff, and I honestly expect it to go public soon.

Frankly I'm dropping new ideas in every ear I can bend. Tossing him suggestions of points in his issues that need to be brought out more, such as his intentions for the military when he cuts Pentagon spending. He's got to make sure soldiers and their families know they are his priority when it comes to defense spending, and he hasn't done that. His supporters are aleady sure of that, but the other voters aren't and that's who he's got to speak to. There's no benefit to preaching to the choir in a campaign.

There are things going on it just isn't that evident yet. Some supporters are getting impatient, and understandably, but it does take time to organize new approaches and efforts.

I refuse to copy-cat other campaigns, however I'm very talented in the one-upmanship game. In this case that may come in very handy.

:evilgrin:

[JohnKleeb]

50. I have an idea for him too maybe hes talked about it

Its not really an issue its the kinda thing that congress would do but maybe he doesnt know yet. Time is what we need but come labor day and Dennis being labor's friend and champion will probably do something well knowing him its bound to appeal to my heart. The pentagon budget cutting is a good idea actually, a lot of the budget is junk on the pentagon, Dennis knows that and I find him to be pretty innovative actually. That said no one said it would be easy but hes appealed to my heart, and I see the ideas he talks about as what RFK once called the ripple of hope. He infered to us as that actually from his recording when I saw him speak, he wasnt there but he was fighting Bush as always in congress. That said what would you like him to do? yes raise money but how. He is quite critical of Bush too and in fact I find him to be a great fighter, I also find him to be something special, maybe I am exaggrating but all the great presidents I think have been known for their economic populism and Dean's not that and in fact that makes him a moderate actually. I would not like being told that FDR's new deal was a crazy and unelectable idea, nor would I like being told that Kennedy is gonna lose us the southern vote because of his tolerance, and on and on, you see this is the moment for great change and I think Kucinich has the best vision. Maybe its not known like Dean's is but it exists and its the stuff that during the darkest days of Bush you feel like this is a beauty. He's not a pacifist he believes in defense not offense, as he said most middle school athletes can distinguish the two. I like Dennis, hes like me on the issues, hes a self made guy who makes believe in the american dream, he has a great work ethic, and he views history like I do. Besides even if we do lose the primary and I think it will be a tough road to victory but any road is tough, I will say that we may have lost the primary but we will know that as for as issues and compassion for the people, Kucinich stands out. Not saying the others dont have hearts but theres something about Dennis that really inspires me, I think its his working class ethic.

[diamondsoul]

55. It's like Danny said, Dennis has to grab attention.

He inspires most everyone who actually hears him speak, but until people KNOW he's talking they aren't going to listen. He has to force he media to see and acknowledge his presence in the field and we haven't helped him to do that yet. I do believe the idea I sent him (which should have been presented to him yesterday morning) will do that very effectively if it's carried out the right way.

The challenge to it is whether Dennis has the energy to employ that idea. I sincerely hope he does, and I suspect he will. That's one thing he seems to have an abundance of- energy to devote to the things that matter most. He's stunning in that department. The Lessig blog stint proved that to me beyond all doubt. When I saw the time-stamp on his third entry just before the blackout, I was flabberghasted. 4:30-something a.m.! Then after the blackout, I thought he wouldn't have time to make a last entry to the blog because he was going to be swamped with the power issues. Wrong! He made it a priority to come back and blog that final entry, even though it was late in coming.

I've also paid a lot of attention to House floor activity, noting times of activity and the time they adjourn for the night. Often-times Dennis is in House chambers from 6-7a.m. until 3-4a.m. the next morning. He's tireless, apparently, and that something we can bank on on the campaign trail as well as in his congressional duties.

I suspect someof the problems we've had are in the communication area. It's sometimes difficult to get in contact with paid campaign staff, and much of that has to do with funding problems. There just isn't enough to hire as many people as we would ideally like to have on paid staff. That's why the dedication of the volunteers is so absolutely important to Dennis' campaign over-all.

Funding issues can be resolved if each of us volunteers just donates $20 a month every month without fail. That's my personal goal to help in that area, a minmum monthly $20 donation. I look at it as an investment in my own voice in our Government. Beyond that I spend whatever else I can on supplies, printing paper, ink, etc. Every penny and every second we put into this campaign is an investment in our own future. An investment in our dreams and goals for this country. It's not just an investment in Dennis Kucinich, it's an investment in ourselves!

[JohnKleeb]

56. your're right money is the problem

but its unfortunate that when it comes down it having more money and thus having an easier time pushing your message will make it easier to win. I say it again to quote my grandfather its all about green, I say he is right but we gotta communicate better. Maybe we will get a September suprise, Dennis rises in the polls, and we arent doubted, but I will always remember these days the days where we were no where, so I will when are on top to not act like my guy is so superior blah blah, same reason I dont look down on immigrants being a descedant of poor Slavic immigrants. I loved how he talked about the power outage. He knows what its like, thats why I support him and I may add he's superior on the issues, and plus I really like the guy.

[diamondsoul]

58. Money is just a hurdle

to be jumped by the Kucinich campaign. We'll get past that soon enough, when the word starts to spread about Dennis. I have no doubt there are some surpises in store for the Kucinich doubters and detractors.

This man is not to be written off at this stage, and I know beyond all doubt this race is just beginning. He's going to shock this nation, John, and we're going to help.

[JohnKleeb]

59. yep and also diamond

I see you at his fourm site. I just signed up and I am gonna introduce myself. Tell me are me and you the only DUers there.

[diamondsoul]

62. No, there are a couple of others-

Tinoire posts there on occasion and so does eridani.

[JohnKleeb]

63. oh have you seen my posts yet

I mentioned that I know you a littles from here in my hello. They seem like real nice people. I cant wait to meet them and know them more. Above all they liked my workers memorial idea and they expanded on it. I shouldnt give in to fear youre right.

[diamondsoul]

65. Yes, I did see them. :)

Am up late tonight responding to e-mails and printing out Pass It On tickets for the Labor Day parade tomorrow. Another great volunteer inspired idea comes out. As long as this is taking, I may have to do another printing run in the morning rather than do them all tonight. I'm beat!

I was so glad to see them add that National Volunteer actions section to the volunteer board. That's a new secion for us and it might make it easier for the paid staffers to find innovative ideas. Things are happening, John, it's just that people on the outside aren't seeing them yet. Little by little we're making progress, and we all know the old saying from the Toroise and the Hare tale, "Slow and steady wins the race.". Steady forward momentum is better than huge, sudden leaps because it's an indication we're winning over people who are driven to think about the issues and what they want and need in a candidate.

[JohnKleeb]

66. good things happen to those who wait too

I posted my workers memorial idea btw I saw your idea, and I must say good thinking, they seem like great people I am sure I will become part of the gang the same way I did here. We can do this thing, I invested my heart in Dennis investing using your heart a pretty good thing.

[JohnKleeb]

32. I am off to bed

bye

[goodhue]

67. Bush antidote

http://www.madison.com/captimes/opinion/column/guest/56216.php

Midge Miller: Kucinich's record shows he's an antidote to Bush

By Midge Miller
September 6, 2003

As our country faces crises on every front, I have been so concerned about the reckless policies of President Bush and his managers that I felt the most important thing was just to find a presidential candidate who could defeat them. There is so much at stake in this election, we need to make regime change in our own country our first priority.

The media and the establishment are beginning to share my concern that this administration's policies are endangering our economy, alienating our allies and making this a more dangerous world.
Knowing that our chances to win are improved, it is imperative that the Democrats select the presidential candidate who would be best able to solve our many problems at home and abroad.

* * * *

The primary season is the time to select the best possible candidate. I welcome the opportunity to support Dennis Kucinich and to do what I can to help him become our next president. I urge your readers to study the candidates and issues carefully. Visit the Web site www.kucinich.us. I am sure that many will agree that Kucinich has the record, the determination and the vision to guide us.

Most Democrats and Greens, as well as many disillusioned Republicans, will agree that defeating Bush is our top priority. After the convention, we know we must rally around the winning Democrat for the general election.

Midge Miller of Madison is a former Wisconsin state legislator who played a critical role in organizing the insurgent anti-war presidential campaign of former U.S. Sen. Eugene McCarthy in 1968. She has been active in every presidential campaign since then.

Published: 9:04 PM 9/05/03

http://www.madison.com/captimes/opinion/column/guest/56216.php