RE: Nader (get a clue you pathetic Democrats)

[idontwantaname]

come on now.

the progressives who vote for Nader this election year wouldnt think twice about voting Kerry.

go ahead and vote Kerry in and pretend youre better off.

Kerry has seen war. hes knows the lies and corruption and still voted for regime change!

its time to stop pointing fingers at Nader and turn them at the democratic party... an elephant in donkeys skin.

[aquart]

1. That isn't the issue this year.

The issue is the fascism of George Bush.

The issue isn't Republicans and Democrats and it is disingenuous in the extreme to pretend it is (as Ralph is doing).

The issue is fascism.

And if you don't know what's happening here, go vote Nader. Call yourself "progressive" as if that meant something. Because it has no meaning if fascists continue in power.

Except that maybe you won't feel comfortable telling people how you voted, afterwards.

[Dogmudgeon]

2. The World According to ...

Right = Wrong

Freedom = Slavery

Peace = War

Truth = Lies

Democrats = Republicans

Sure they are.

--bkl
... the OTHER Mr Blair

[JohnnyFianna1]

3. N/S

Yes, unfortunatly you do realize that Kerry has a 12 point lead over Bush. Does this mean that the majority of the country has conservative or centrist views at heart?

[idontwantaname]

4. do you really think anything will change by getting Bush out?

sure maybe we will get a couple domestic programs back on track... and the rich may pay a bit more in taxes and the democrats will be cozy... but fast forward 4 or 8 more years and we will still be in the same hole were in now.

if youre content with that im glad.

id like to see some real change and awareness however. youre not going to get that will Bush or Kerry.

[Q3JR4]

6. Be that as it may,

Nader has no chance of winning the WH (in the grand scheme of things, 3% is nothing). All this will do is piss off those members of the left who still think that the Dem. party can get anywhere, and make them less willing to listen to individuals who vote for Nader.

I personally wouldn't vote for Kerry, but the U.S. and what it is supposed to represent is too important to me to waste my vote on a third party candidate who will probably get less than 2% of the vote anyway.

[idontwantaname]

7. thats what im talking about above... kind of.

anyone who would vote for Nader would NOT vote for Kerry.
they would just stay at home.

so really its not a Nader issue. its a democratic party issue.
the party needs to be able to appeal to those voters or get off the toilet.
seeeeeeeeee?

[demosincebirth]

22. N0 chance with Shrub

idontwantaname said;
"sure maybe we will get a couple domestic programs back on track"

Well, thats a start which we'll never get with Bush in office. Do you agree? Yes or No?

[dae]

5. F.U.T.K.

:kick:

[H2O Man]

8. History lesson 101

I'd just like to say that one of my (great) cousins worked in the government of the Irish Free State some time back. He was the 2nd treasurer, in fact. He was good friends with the great revolutionary, Michael Collins. Like Mr. Collins, he was an inspired leader who fully recognized the need for revolutionary change. And they had the shared wisdom to know that change only occures one step at a time. So if you think that Kerry isn't your cup of tea, because you hate the system so, you have been blinded by that hate. And you have lost something important: the understanding of the power of ideas! The best idea today is to get Bush out of office. The only way right now is to elect a democrat. Then continue to take those steps, my friends. Nader is making a mistake of historic proportions. What he's doing is immature, selfish .... and creates a dangerous situation for every young man who will be drafted if Bush is elected.

[idontwantaname]

9. wow.

i agree with you.
proper change takes patience.
to be honest though Kerry is not change. its a short term solution to a long term problem.

i think something this country needs IS to have every eligible citizen be drafted. let Bush do it.

then maybe we will truely have a public which cares about its rights and is responcible for its tax dollars and holds its elected officials accountable.

PS- i dont hate the system. i work campaigns and jump the hoops like all the other registered democrats.

[H2O Man]

10. A couple of thoughts....

....if Bush is the far right, and Kerry the middle (sort of, though perhaps to the right), and Nader & Dean mildly left .... then is it possible to think our nation can go from the bush position in the direction we need, without going first through where Kerry stands? Does Kerry represent actual change? Yes, in the very limited sense that he represents the potential for change, though certainly nothing more. Bush represents ONLY change for the worse .... and we can not afford that today. Listen! There have been two posts regarding Bobby Kennedy, Jr on here. He endorses Kerry because of the environmental damage that the Bush administration is doing. That is damage that can NOT be undone. Yet even here, on the hopefully open-minded forum these posts are largely ignored! Believe me, I believe in the same goals as the most committed revolutionaries ... Martin Luther King,Jr, Bobby Kennedy, Sr., Malcolm X .... but understand that ALL effective revolutionaries know that change often comes slowly .... only death and destruction seem to arrive at a fast pace. Your goals are perfect. The avenue to reach them may be open to improvement.

[idontwantaname]

11. thanks for the advice... however...

would you say going from Clinton to Kerry is a change to the right left or no change.

we all wish the best for the nation... but just the same i also would like to see our intervention into other countries and privatization of natural resources halted.

[H2O Man]

12. Good points

Yes, it is true that Clinton did "bad" things. One example too often overlooked was the doing away with the writ of habeas corpus under his administration. Moynihan was the only senator with the decency to fight this. Add a draft now .... with no C.O. status .... and young men opposed to fighting for Halliburton will be in prison ... work camps actually. The U.S. Constitution, a document that I doubt 2% of the people on here are actually very familiar with, will be fully suspended as it applies to "free" thinking should Bush remain in power. No, this is not paranoia ...it is real. Now, many of the good and decent people on here say, "We need a revolution!" Oh, please look at what a real revolution is! Look at Haiti! Look at Iraq, or the western European "countries" in the past decade. Do we want that? Really? See, if you were to take away this generations bright lights and loud music, the laughing and dancing, the booze and designer drugs, the colors and the laughter ... you have a group of people who would have very little understanding of EXACTLY HOW THIS SYSTEM HAS CAPITALIZED on them! They would be defenseless in a "revolution!" No, please keep an open mind. It's cold in NYS, and I want to go to Florida. Virginia is too much like NY. But, guess what: to get from here to Florida, I have to pass through Virginia. What do you think?

[idontwantaname]

13. compromise.

right now im involved with the kucinich campaign... signing up all those LA greens to hopefully vote dem. in the primaries and election. at the end of the day ill redraw the map of NY to FL and see where i choose to go.

[H2O Man]

14. I have a feeling....

...that while you will keep an open mind, you will never compromise on your principles! Keep up the good fight, my friend! It has been a pleasure to converse with someone who is out there working! Thank you!

[idontwantaname]

18. Thank You H2O Man...

it was excellent sharing thoughs with you.

[Adam D]

26. what if

What if Kerry isn't our cup of tea because he isn't advancing any step forward?

[reprehensor]

15. A vote for Nader IS a Vote for Bush.

Actually, a vote for any 3rd party is a vote for Bush. The stakes are too high.

You need to read up on Neoconservatives.

Neo-conned!
http://www.thelibertycommittee.org/neo-conned.htm

No, the DLC is NOT the same as the Neocons. It sucks, but nowhere nearly as bad. Not. Nada.

[idontwantaname]

17. a vote for Kerry is a vote AGAINST change...

...well not really... but i just wanted to share this!


Nader is running again and the reaction you hear from most Democrats is one of complaint. As if it is Naders fault the Democrats are so pathetic and mainstream. What many do not understand is most who support Nader are not energized by Kerry, Edwards or Gore.

Why is it Democrats cannot manage to seduce the progressive left? Republicans coined the extreme Christian right. Apart of a couple social programs and taxing the rich what sets Democrats apart from Republicans?
What does the Democratic party stand for?

Naders thrid party is not the problem. This is a Democratic Party problem. There is a constituency of active and educated(I couldnt say as much for most Democrats) liberal voters who have not been addressed and whose veiws not taken seriously. Instead of funneling opposition and criticism toward Nader, Democrats should rethink the direction of their partys platform. Decide whether they want to be a party of tired politicians grabbing at Republican sloppy seconds or whether they want to stand for something greater.


ps MODs- feel free to delete this post any time. i got out what i needed to say...

[Adam D]

25. so...

we should vote for the lesser of two evils instead of voting for something we want?

That's ridiculous. The stakes are always "too high" with Republicans and Democrats in charge.

[GreenPartyVoter]

16. I'll vote Dem this time. It's an emergency

But I'll be working for election reform and expect them to do something about it.

[Adam D]

19. illusions

It's a complete illusion to believe as a whole Democrats are better than Republicans in any regard. Kerry might be better than Bush, but that's not saying much. Corporations will still get rich, and the likelihood of warring will not be that much less.

[GreenPartyVoter]

20. Welcome Adam

[demosincebirth]

21. Unite against Bush!

Naderites still cannot get it throught their heads, and no argument will make them change their minds, that their votes for Nader is like two votes... Nader & Bush. Can I make it any simplier? Or can I just ask? how would you like another 4 years of Bush? Scary,isn't it.

UNIT AGAINST BUSH!

[Adam D]

24. No units for Bush

Or maybe it's a vote for Nader against both Bush and Kerry/Edwards.

You're making this ridiculous argument that the only options we can have is Republicans and Democrats (the idea that there's an option there is laughable). That's absurd, and virtually censorship of any political movement outside of those two parties, which I might add have brought us the worst in politics. Not all of us have our heads so far up the Democrats' asses that we can't see that. The Democrats are not the vanguard of the people. They haven't been in quite some time.

You might be able to pass off the argument that Bush is so terrible, that it would be better to see anybody in office but Bush. That might be correct. But what happens in 2008? 2012? Do we continue to pass this argument off every election year to keep Republicans out of office? That's absurd, and that's exactly what keeps people aligned to the two major parties. It's also what forces people to vote for the lesser of two evils, instead of finding something good to vote for. My displeasure with the Democrats doesn't run very far from my disgust with the Republicans, and somebody has to break open the door to the White House to some new ideas.

What you're also completely ignoring is the point of Nader's campaign. He isn't trying to syphon off the Democratic base. He's trying to syphon off Republicans and independents who otherwise wouldn't vote. Not swing voters, the voter bloc of choice for Democrats, but independents. That's what his voting bloc was in 2000. I would rather see more than the one tepid approach to escorting Bush out of office that Kerry is. A lot of people who will vote for Nader will likely be Greens and independents, who wouldn't vote for Kerry anyway.

[Andromeda]

23. Goodbye...

it was nice knowing you, NOT.