Will the Real Howard Dean Please Stand Up?

[TSIAS]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A4798-2003Jul30.html

(snip)

Howard Dean is not a liberal – or so say the liberals who know him best in his home state of Vermont.

"He governed from the middle," says former state Sen. Jan Backus.

Ironically, some of Vermont's Democratic Party stalwarts say Dean's centrism sent liberals running from their party to the ultra-liberal Progressive Party -- handing some elected offices to Republicans.

But such things as liberalism and conservatism are, just like beauty, in the eye of the beholder. The centrist Democratic Leadership Council has made Dean a target - as a liberal who could hand the presidential election to Republicans if he were to become the party's nominee.

(more)

[ThorsteinVeblen]

1. A Moderate with a moderate Record

who is NOT AFRAID to stand up and lead.

The exact opposite of John Kerry - weak, wishy-washy and too far left to be elected. John Kerry is the second coming of Dukakis. I can see him now trying to be "strong" on defense by agreeing with Bush on his Foreign Policy and riding in a tank.

Americans don't like Kerry - they are suspicious of his circular arguments, his complicated political manuveurings, his prevarications and his sophistry. He has always been seen as "distant" and too intellectual. His last presidential campaign was a unmitigated disaster and did damage to the Democratic Party, playing into the stereotype of liberals as flaky, morally relevant and elite.

If the Democratic Party is to win in 2004, they will need someone who can compete with the perceptions Americans have about Bush - simple, straighforward, clearcut, morally clear, sure of who is and where he is going, unafraid and a little impatient with those who disagree with him. Someone who has a fire in his gut, someone who is down to earth, someone who may have a large vision but can reduce it to a simple idea. Someone who will fight Terrorism and radicals at home.

[ima_sinnic]

4. very well put

my sentiments exactly

[blm]

7. HAHAH...Kerry never ran for president...

How to make a fortune:

Buy someone for what they know, then sell them for what they THINK they know.

[RegenerationMan]

10. You've got the wrong Senator Kerry

John Kerry never ran for President before. THat was Bob Kerrey, the NEBRASKA Senator, the Gold Medal Winner. John Kerry only won a Silver Star. You don't even know which Kerry you're talking about so why should anyone believe the rest of your drivel?

[ThorsteinVeblen]

15. imnass

...

[DrFunkenstein]

16. Gee, To Think Of All I Miss With My Ignore List...

I wish somebody had told me it was JOHN Kerry. That son of a bitch voted to send us to Iraq! I mean war crimes is one thing, but I could never support THAT Kerry...

[ThorsteinVeblen]

17. Welcome back Funkmeister

Perhaps you would like to read an editorial on the DLC - the cabal behind Senator John Kerry.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=10314&mesg_id=10314

WWSS??

What would Sharpton Say?

[Mairead]

20. Your views strike me as being astonishingly doctrinaire

Every time I read something you write, I'm reminded irresistably of the expositions I've read of religious dogma and (usually the more unsavory sort of) political doctrine.

[madfloridian]

2. Why does he have to be labeled and defined in a neat package?

I don't want to be defined that way. He seems to be an individual who is mad at what is happening to our country. That is good.

[w13rd0]

3. Because the willfully ignorant...

...need to be told what to think. Anything beyond a one-dimensional, strict left-right paradigm makes them think too hard, and they get all whoozy.

[AP]

13. (1) Because if people don't know what he stands for

they're not going to waste their time voting for him, and (2) anger ain't enough. Anger is the tool of facism, and it may appeal to a small segment of angry white men Democrats, but the rank and file core of Democratic voters are more likely to be turned off by anger. FDR is the archetypal Democratic president and he was the opposite of angry. In fact, no angry Democrat has ever won the presidency. Democrats are about hopefullness and about progress, and improvement. Anger is a winning emotion for Republicans, and it's the Democrat's job to put forward a counterargument to anger. A Democrat trying to out-angry and out-fear the Republican is just stirring up more Republican votes.

[Cha]

5. I don't think of Dean as a "Liberal". Dean has no labels as far

as I'm concerned. I feel like he is a real person who has had a lot experience governing and he has a Fire in his Belly to get our Country Back away from the Destroyers.

Dean's stance against the attack on Iraq is what made me take a look at him after Gore dropped out. And I like it that he stood up for civil unions in Vermont. Those are two very important reasons for me to back Govenor Dean.

Dean's approach to Foreign Policy would make me feel more secure than the pre-emptive attackers.

I love that Dean is laying out a Environmental Policy in San Francisco, today!

[Mairead]

22. It's certainly wise not to think of him as a liberal.

But I think you might be unnecessarily holding back not to label him at all.

His policies fit very well with the R wing of the D party. He might be a chickenhawk (there's evidence that he dodged the draft, but he's in favor of war), he's certainly in favor of keeping the hands of the wealthy in our pockets (the military budget and his healthcare proposal are both 'good' examples), and he seems to have little respect for the intelligence or integrity of his followers (he wouldn't be willing to accept MediaInc's mis-characterisation as a liberal if he thought his followers had both intelligence and integrity, so he's shorting them on one or the other if not both). Sounds like a closet Republican, to me.

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

26. Provide your so-called evidence

He did not dodge the draft. This has been discussed ad naseum. You lose traction when you make baseless claims, which in the end only hurts your case for DK being the better choice.

[Mairead]

34. Let the chips fall where they may

He is a very robust guy (as proven by his participation in sport) who nevertheless got out of being drafted because of a defect that would not have been detected by a normal induction physical. Sounds like draft-dodging to me.

[Upfront]

6. Stand Up?

Dean will be soon sitting in th Presidents chair in the oval office.Guess what, he will be elected. He is not left, he is not right, maybe he is just what we need!

[w13rd0]

9. A real person...

...as revolted by invasive ideaologies as the rest of the non-nuts America. Someone who makes decisions on issues based on the facts on the table and solutions with an eye on the picture 5 and 10 and 100 years from now (because they aren't relying on some cloud deity to sweep the world up before they are buried with their money and prizes). America DESERVES someone that is actually looking at a long-term picture with achievable goals for the near-term. EXILE BUSH!

[Abe Linkman]

8. Dean is very weak on Bill of Rights/Crminal justice etc.

As a wealthy man from a wealthy family, Dean has always been a forceful advocate of strong "law and order" justice. His views reflect those of any other "mainstream" rich, property-owning white American male. Don't look for any progessive ("liberal") agenda from Dean, when it comes to reforming our justice system or getting tough on the causes of crime, and the highest rate of incarceration of any country on planet Earth.

[Cha]

11. Bunkem...Pure unadulterated Bunkem.

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

14. Hmm that's funny

"Don't look for any progessive ("liberal") agenda from Dean, when it comes to reforming our justice system or getting tough on the causes of crime"

Fixing the public school system is a great start in dealing with crime. Also:

http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=policy_record_health
"Child Abuse – During Governor Dean’s tenure, Vermont was the first state to institute a statewide protocol for abuse investigations. In return, Vermont saw a 45% decline in physical and sexual abuse of children. This included a 64% decline in physical abuse victims ages 0-3 and a 43% decline in physical abuse victims ages 0-6.

Child Sexual Abuse – 84% decline in sexual abuse victims ages 0-3 and 70% decline in sexual abuse victims ages 0-6."

This is an informative link on Dean's domestic violence record:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=policy_record_health_domesticviolence

[ErasureAcer]

18. I agree...I think his view of "justice" is distorted.

If it is siding with Israel or only letting gays to have "civil unions"...Dean really doesn't tackle the issue at hand but tickle it.

Sorry but we need someone stronger on the issues for a Democratic Candidate. Someone who isn't from the Al Gore/Bill Clinton school of mediocrity...try and compromise on issues.

Sorry, that isn't good enough for me. Dean says he wants to talk to white people about race. How bout he start talking a big game on the white judges and jurors who consistently lock people up or kill the blacks in the judicial system.

Dean talks a big game. I don't see any action. Why isn't he tackling this issue? Does he think the judicial system is fair in its current state? Is he really that ignorant? Or does he get off on tickling?

Sure, anyone is better than Bush...any candidate can move the nation in a better direction and claim the "country back". It isn't hard to do when Bush has dropped it off the deep end, any progress will be progress.

Dean doesn't do it. He is talk talk talk but I see no action. I see no plan of what he is going to do as president to address the real problems of this nation.

Lastly, Dean just wants to add to the problems. Increased pentagon budget and all. We could fund our education, health care, and retirement programs and still have money left to spend if we cut down our huge(400 billion) pentagon budget. That is the only answer to solving a good education for our kids, quality healthcare for everyone, and secure retirement(not 69 retirement age...what a jackass) for our elders.

Give me a break Dean. I love the idea of IRV...it gives me hope for the future. But even if you were the dem candidate, I still wouldn't vote for your ass because you truly don't have the power to tackle the issue.

Howard Dean is not a leader. Howard Dean is tickler.

The best candidate the Dems have is Dennis Kucinich. I have a feeling I'll be voting green party come general election time though.

Obviously, Democrats love Weapons of Mass Destruction over Education, Healthcare, and Retirement plans.

Pansies.

[Larkspur]

21. Actually, Dean's view of justice and civil rights reminds me of

Bobby Kennedy. Attorney General Bobby Kennedy, who was of priviledged background, had the same fire for justice and accountability that Dean is showing now.

[Mairead]

23. You have some strange views, Lark

Anyone less like the RFK I remember (I was 28 when he was murdered--how old were you?) than Dean I can't imagine. Among the Dems, at least.

[Larkspur]

25. I was in 3rd grade when Bobby was assasinated

I am also a History major from Notre Dame and he was one of my favorite historical personas. He didn't have the TV gravitas that John did, but he had more heart.

[chaumont58]

12. Why does the DLC continue to spew their crap?

What has Al From been smoking?

[Jim Sagle]

19. Rove's ass.

[SGrande]

31. Why do Deanites think the DLC is behind everything?

Ya do know that elvis is dead right?

[killbotfactory]

24. It's Dean's fault he was mislabeld...

He should of told the press he wasn't an ultra-liberal!

Oh wait, he did. Repeatedly. Everytime he was asked about it.

But hey, only liberals could possibly want more healthcare coverage, or not support a hasty ill-conceived war against a nation which poses no threat to us, or not support fiscal irresponsibility in the form of major tax cuts for people who don't need them, or support equal rights for all Americans! Right?

[poskonig]

27. Dean has been extremely *honest* about his issue stances.

Given Dean usually doesn't try to feed people a bunch of bull, he has earned a lot of respect. Unlike some people, Dean has not been flipflopping on matters critical to our Republic.

[ErasureAcer]

28. I know, and his issues suck!

Raise pentagon spending(we already outdo the world in this category combined. Against "Rogue" states by 40 times. 400 billion to 10 billion(combined). Dean is no better and even worse than Bush on this.

Raise retirement age to 69. Give me a fucking break. Most people croak shortly after 70. Are we fucking slaves to the government? The retirement age should be 65 at the latest and not one year more. Suck it Dean, suck it.

Healthcare that can't be payed for? How the fuck is Dean gonna pay for his universal health care? Raise taxes? Not a good idea when the economy SUCKS! If he cut pentagon spending 50% it'd be possible as well as many things but look back at the top of this...Dean has said he WANTS TO INCREASE PENTAGON SPENDING!!! HOW THE FUCK CAN ANYONE VOTE FOR THIS JACKASS?

Civil Rights. Dean says he's for civil unions on the state basis. He thinks this is a STATE ISSUE, like he handled it in Vermont. Well how bout you fucking move to Texas and solve it there Dean. Then to Florida, and every fucking other state. Why even fucking mention this if you're not going to do jack shit about this. You're begging for votes now Dean. Even then, Dean doesn't even support equality with rights. Take a look at the first fucking amendment to the constitution. I think it clearly states that all religions will be treated equally. Thus, the government has to acknowledge same sex couples marriage because to not allow someone's religious right while acknowledging others is "unequal". This has nothing to do with law as Bush and Dean think(states rights), this has to do with the fucking constitution of the United States of America. Simple as that. It is unconstituional now...if Dean truly had a brain he'd recognize that.

Patriot Act. Here's a guy who thinks most of the patriot act is good for the country. Lots of DU's bitch about the Patriot Act and Bush's administration yet they support a fucking candidate who would do the same. Am I the only one here who sees the fucking hypocrisy?

Simply put, Dean sucks on the issues. He can speak the "honest" truth all he wants...but when what he is saying totally sucks, who the fuck gives a damn as what he sees is the truth?

I sure the hell don't and will never vote for the man under any circumstances.

[indigo32]

29. So who will you vote for should he be nominated?

BTW could you please back up the claim re "Raising" pentagon spending?

[ErasureAcer]

30. Of course...

http://www.msnbc.com/news/937252.asp?cp1=1

Snip:

"
Dean has said “I don’t agree with Dennis about cutting the Pentagon budget when we’re in the middle of a difficulty with terror attacks.”
"

Well since Terrorism is NEVER going away...we can assume Dean is never 'cutting the pentagon budget'.

Furthermore, not all 400 billion dollars of the pentagon budget is even for fighting terrorism. Most of it is for 1 million dollar missles. Truly, having 1 million plus 1 million dollar missles isn't stopping terrorism. Having the new more kick ass over our old kick ass planes isn't going to stop terrorism. These weapons add up to big dollars but Dean obviously thinks we need them to continue production for we are at war with terrorists.

Truly, If you can't see past Howard's bullshit...I'll tell it to you now...you're voting for the same man that George W. Bush is now. A man who likes to control you with fear, 'the terrorists will win if we cut the budget one bit from current levels'. Give me a break. The rest of the world survives with lower "defense" budgets. When was the last time Switzerland was attacked by Terrorists? And what is their "defense" budget?

Now figure into this, that if we cut pentagon spending big time(we'd still be #1 in the world) by 40-50% we'd have enough money to fund our schools, healthcare and whatnot...but we don't because Dean and Bush like to keep you in fear.

Furthermore, if we have a lot less Pentagon budget, we'd actually have to cooperate with the world in making it a better place. We'd actually have to work with the UN, which in my mind is a good thing. Instead now, we know we can blow anyone up on our own because we've been spending and spending on the pentagon for years. When will it end? That's right, it never will as long as Dean and company keep saying just wait until "this" happens(in his case terrorism stops). Is this the type of world you wanna leave the future to? FEAR?

I've seen quotes by Dean that says he'll chop the pentagon budget, and I've seen his quote above. Truly, is someone who talks both sides of the issue(a liar) really who we want to be president?

I'll be voting Kucinich for the Dem primary and most likely the Greens shall he nor Sharpton receive the Dem nomination.

I won't compromise the future for Howard Dean. Howard Dean is not what the future needs and he isn't what we need now.

[indigo32]

32. I see

so he disagrees with Kucinich on cutting the Pentagon budget... so he's going to raise the pentagon budget. I like that, nice spin. Talk about trying to control with fear. Howard is NOT running around challenging every arab in the middle east like GW... THAT is bullshit. Frankly I think that with that madman in charge... it would be incredibly damaging to not to everything legally possible to remove him. Judicial Appointments are enough to convince me not to go green this year.

[poskonig]

33. You aren't thinking clearly.

Our objective is to win the White House. The consequences of failure are huge: Republican supreme court justices, more reckless interventions, more unemployment, and a full enactment of Delay's hideous agenda of the Republican controlled congress.

Do not vote Democrat in the fall and the Supreme Court will stuff any Democratic legislation for DECADES.

Regardless who you support in the primaries, if you do not vote Democratic, you're enacting the most radical far-right agenda America has ever seen. Period. The damage will be longterm, and you will be responsible for it.

With Dr. Dean specifically, he will be painted as the candidate of terrorism, taxes, and queers. His stances on defense and gays give Dean lots of wiggle room on these issues which have the potential to sink the Democrats. I'm willing to cut him some slack on these issues, though my feelings are the same as yours.

Just because you disagree with a candidate on two or three issues isn't a justification for putting fundamentalism in our schools, banning abortion across the board, shipping all our jobs to India, invading every country at Big Oil's whim, et cetera.

[Mairead]

36. Sounds to me as though it's someone else who's not thinking clearly

If you want to be sure to get a Dem in the White House, then support the Dem candidate whom all can support. That's Dennis Kucinich.

Don't expect us to vote for the lesser evil simply to save you from having to vote for the greater good. It doesn't work that way.

[poskonig]

37. Team Kucinich needs to campaign better.

I love Kucinich, but I'm doing my best to be honest.

[mandyky]

35. Dean has NEVER claimed to be a liberal

The DLC, the media, pundits, yes.
They have not made a label yet that fits Dean, he calls himself a pragmatist!