What are your thoughts on "Papa" John Phillips?

[Taverner]

Yes, there is some serious baggage behind that name. The drugs, the booze, even more drugs, the possible incest, the drugs...

But you know he was one HELL of a songwriter. I mean he could write. His two solo albums ('Wolfking of LA' and 'Phillips 66') are bloody brilliant. Every single song on them is a keeper.

The work he did with the Mamas and the Papas is legendary.

Let me put it this way, the false start near the end of 'I Saw Her Again' was just brilliant. That stuff was natural for him, and it floored Paul McCartney. He said something like "That had to be a mistake - nobody's THAT good"

But he was - he was THAT good



Then there is the dark side. The self destructive side and the rift of pain he caused his family, his loved ones, his children. If Mackenzie was right, he RAPED his daughter on her wedding night.

If she was wrong, he still has plenty of blighted landscape behind him.

If you ask me, Lennon was right when he said "Genius is Pain"

It is.

And he had plenty to go around.

[Bucky]

1. Some artists end up being so vile in the personal lives that it impairs my appreciation of their art

Northrop Frye argues that when we experience and reflect on an artist's body of work, we are in essence entering a mindscape generated by our understanding of that creator's oeuvre. All we learn about them and all the art we consume by them shapes that mindscape, for both appreciation and for revulsion. To separate the work from the worker is an artificial constraint on the critical faculties of the audience. Thus if I know John Wayne Gacy is a serial killer, I'll see something new in his clown paintings and this information will shape my enjoyment or disenjoyment of his art. I see new facets in the films of Woody Allen because I have opinions about his private life. Art is not only a mechanical act, after all, but a three-way communication between creator, critic, and consumer. So I can't just selectively appreciate that distancing of content from from in the musical works of John Phillips without appreciating too the fact that he distanced the content from the form in his relationship with his daughter.

I like that John Lennon quote, but I think Papa Phillips may have been procession the pain of his genius in the wrong direction. The anguish of awareness drives some of my art as a writer. But if I turn that anguish onto innocent victims, I am no less of an asshole for my hurtfulness having come from my pain. The artist shouldn't only create, but should also play a role in society. If I harm others, I think I'm less of an artist despite whatever mechanical talents I might possess.

[Taverner]

2. Ahhh very true

But that the same time, if John Phillips turned out to be the biggest serial killer in the world, I would still love "Wolfking of LA"

That specific album is THAT GOOD

I guess if you really are that good of an artist, you can transcend your faults. Albert Speer comes to mind.

[elleng]

3. When he was good he was very very good, BUT

when he was bad he was HORRID!

[Taverner]

4. True. That.

His was the classic hippie story though:

Abusive parents, moved a lot, youthful exposure to Blues, Folk or early Rock - and then experiment until you find just the right fit.

To be honest, I don't think drugs killed him, but alcohol.

Drugs are just drugs until something 'activates' it, and nothing 'activates' something like C2H5OH.

[Amerigo Vespucci]

5. The entire fucking band gave me the creeps...pure Manson Family Laurel Canyon hippie bullshit.

Especially the story about how he wrote "I Saw Her Again Last Night" as "punishment" because Denny Doherty porked Michelle and they'd have to sing that song on stage and forever "remember" what they did.

Even the "sweet" songs like "California Dreaming" just gave me the fucking creeps. And I say that as a fan of The Doors, with a guy who wrote Oedipal fantasies like "The End."

Didn't like him then, don;t like him now, never considered him to be a "genius"...not even for a moment.

[Taverner]

6. This is common in bands: Lindsey Buckingham "punished" Mick Fleetwood by writing 'Tusk'

Hippyism aside, Phillips' music was not exploratory.

The Doors' was.


Different mission, different result.

The Doors and VU had a lot more influence in the long run.

TMATP was pop, but good pop. And yes it was creepy, that's what is so great about it.

Would you rather have creepy? Or bland and boring.

I rest my case.

[Amerigo Vespucci]

7. Lindsey gives me the creeps, too.

Initially, he lost me with "Tusk," but his solo albums sealed the deal.

And I hear ya on the "creepy" versus "bland and boring," but remember that I've posted a ton of shit on DU about Lou Reed, Iggy Pop / The Stooges, The Sex Pistols...

...I drew the line on Phillips and The Mamas & The Papas for precisely the reasons I said...it just seemed like hippies fucking and singing, and I never enjoyed the songs that much...especially that "No one's gettin' fat except Mama Cass" piece of shit.

Just my opinion...I know they were / are popular and I'm not trying to influence anyone's tastes.

:toast:

[Taverner]

8. I love all of those bands

Really learned to appreciate them, including The Ramones, lately.

But I can enjoy The Fifth Dmimension singing "Up up and Away!" on the same day enjoying "White Light White Heat" in its entirety.

I just love music. There is ALWAYS something new to discover.

Yes, LB can be creepy. He's a micro-manager - and while I don't enjoy this if I'm working under one. But sometimes the music is just worth that.

Thing is, the music in a good band, will always reflect their lives. That's why John Lennon did some of his best work post-Beatles. Or how John Phillips' first solo album, "Wolfing" is so awesome (at least to me - give it a try! Country Rock in its primal infancy.)

My only problem in music is the capitalistic pursuit overrides the product. This happens all the time in music, all from BBC banning 'Satisfaction' because Mick sings about 'making some girl,' or GG Allin's sick, tortured performances of death, and fecal matter. Granted, I would never go to one, even if it meant I could go back in time. Of course waiting it out and betting on the RedSox in 04/05 would be a nice way to make a spare multi-million.

Anyway, if you want to see my main gripe in action, just look at the 'Top of the Pops' for the US. Whatever that means.

Music is all available right now. Enjoy it while you can.

[Amerigo Vespucci]

10. I stopped looking at the back page of "Rolling Stone" a long time ago...

...used to be I owned anywhere from 1/2 to 2/3 of what they had on that week's charts.

Now, it's a miracle if I own one or more of the albums.

You might enjoy the following post from two days ago...I know I did:

Moby Says Ke$ha and Britney Spears Songs Shouldn't Be Called 'Music'

Posted on May 27th 2011 12:00PM by Shelley White

http://www.spinner.com/2011/05/27/moby-kesha-britney



Moby may have become a bona fide pop star when his landmark album 'Play' sold over 10 million copies back in 2000, but when it comes to the music of current chart-toppers like Ke$ha, Rihanna, Britney Spears and the Black Eyed Peas, he just can't relate. In fact, he thinks "music" is the wrong word for what they're putting out.

"It's fun, but I don't think of it as music," he says. "It's manufactured. I appreciate it as pop culture phenomenon and some of the songs I like if I hear them in a shopping mall or something, but it doesn't function as music for me."

Long before 'Play' became an international blockbuster, Moby cut his teeth making progressive house and techno-flavoured dance music in the '90s, with club hits like 'Go' and 'Everytime You Touch Me.' Yet he doesn't feel that the current crop of dancey Billboard bangers contain the emotional resonance of real music.

"Music is something that communicates emotion and integrity in a really interesting, direct way," he says. "And when I listen to the pop music you're describing, it's hyper-produced corporate product. That isn't really even a criticism, but I just think calling it music is a misnomer.

[Gidney N Cloyd]

12. Wow, damnedest thing-- when I read your post I had this rush of memories of the smell of new vinyl.

And tearing the cellophane off the cardboard sleeve.

[Frank Cannon]

18. I've never seen a single personal account of this man...

that doesn't paint him as the world's biggest douche. I like The Mamas & The Papas' music, but yeah, I hear what you're saying about a "creepy" undertone to it. It's pretty clear that he was the reason for that.

[Bluzmann57]

9. If you want doped up "geniuses"

Go with Gary Primich, who died of a heroin overdose, Jerry Garcia who died from way too many drugs, etc. in his life, Tommy Bolin, whom I saw at his next to last performance ever, who died from excess drug usage, Jimi Hendrix, whom most guitar players are measured against and died from drug usage, and on and on.
My point is that there are no reports of any of these people engaging in perverted behavior. Just too damn many drugs. So Phillips was just another sexual pervert in my opinion and not worthy of any adulation.

[Bucky]

11. That's not fair. Jerry Garcia died after he sobered up. I think the lack of drugs killed him.

Occam's razor, after all, which Jerry used to line up the coke.

[Taverner]

14. I thought Jerry's DOC was Persian Heroin

Not just Heroin, but specifically Persian Heroin

[Amerigo Vespucci]

15. If you want to believe Rock Scully, the answer is "yes."

[Taverner]

16. Why would he lie about his DOC?

I actually liked Scully's book - hilarious at times

[Amerigo Vespucci]

17. I enjoyed it too...but it was undeniably sad as well.

I won't pretend to fully understand all of the inner motivations of an addict, but Scully says that a lot of the Jerry Garcia Band gigs at Keystone and elsewhere were scheduled primarily when Jerry needed drug money between Dead albums / tours. He paints a picture of him as a little kid, in many ways...except instead of that kid whining and manipulating his circumstances and then getting a cookie, Jerry got Persian.

I'm not as generous as many Dead Heads...in the final years, particularly after Hornsby and Welnick came on board, Jerry looked and sounded like shit, and it was because of the drugs, period.

When Neil Young used to do solo acoustic concerts, around the time of "Harvest," he's introduce the song "The Needle & The Damage Done" by talking about this imaginary museum where all of the great art that never got out because of heroin was housed. I hear classic Garcia and Dead, and while I know how much of it was fueled by acid and coke and heroin and just about every other mind-altering substance on the planet, I wonder what Jerry would be doing today if he learned the art of moderation.

Sadly, we'll never know.

[hifiguy]

20. Yup. And he SMOKED it.

according to what is considered to be the definitive bio (book was called "Garcia" - can't remember the author's name) and Phil Lesh's memoir. Jerry was never a needle freak.

What killed Jerry was being far too overweight for too long, which exacerbated the problems that inevitably come with long term use of opiates.

[SCantiGOP]

21. agree

They said after he got off the heavy drugs the doctors worked on him about his diet, which consisted almost entirely of cheeseburgers, fries, candy bars and other assorted junk. That is what eventually killed him.
Concerning Philips, they did a big story on him years ago in Rolling Stone. Said at his worst he would draw up a syringe of cocaine before he went to sleep and leave it on the headboard so he could shoot up before he even got out of bed. Mick Jagger, who the story said didn't inject drugs and wasn't much into getting sloppy high, scored him some heroin to try to wean him off the monster coke habit. Nothing worked till he got caught selling prescription meds to get cash for his coke habit, and was mandated to go to rehab to avoid a long prison sentence.

[NNadir]

23. Here's my son's favorite joke.

"What do Grateful Dead fans say at a concert when they run out of drugs?"
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"This band sucks!"

[applegrove]

13. He sounds like such an childhood abuser. Ick!

[CBGLuthier]

19. Supposedly Lennon got drunk once

at a club during his quiet period and placed a tampon upon his head. The waitress gave him some shit and he said do you know how I am?

"Yeah, some asshole with a tampon on his head."

genius and contributions to the arts do not change the fact that John Philips was a scumbag, possible rapist, possible molester asshole.

[Bake]

22. Great artist ... as a human being, not so hot.

Bake