Bagels are best in NYC. Sourdough is best in SF.

[Taverner]

I've always wondered why this is - Bagelmakers have tried to replicate NYC bagels all over the US and world, and they never come out as chewy as the NYC bagels do.

Same with Sourdough - other places try to follow the recipe to a tee, yet never as good as the kind you can get in SF. Hell, even Toscanas is better than most out of SF sourdough.

Why is this?

[Inchworm]

1. I'm attempting Hand-made Sourdough Hot Pockets this evening

The dough is proofing in about an hour.

Other ingredients are cheese, rice, and venison.

:rofl:

[Taverner]

2. I'm sure it will be delish

But SF sourdough, compared to any other attempt at it, always reigns

Come to SF some time and I'll show you exactly what I mean

[Inchworm]

5. Last time I was in California

I did time in California. I'll take your word for it :P

Note: Never wander through La Jolla on foot in your work clothes after Happy Hour :blush:

[Taverner]

9. La Jolla reminds me of that city in "Land of the Dead"

They must have thought you were a zombie

[mnhtnbb]

24. I graduated La Jolla High in 1969.

[Taverner]

26. How was it?

[Inchworm]

30. Umm.. basically.. my invention was

Empanadas :D

I didn't realize until I was making them.

:dunce:

[Chan790]

3. Water.

No shit. The answer is water. It's the big major ingredient in virtually all prepared foods and especially baked goods which nobody thinks about that varies in qualities from one location to the next...it's the reason most fast-food restaurants used filtered water, in order to insure that the food tastes exactly the same from LA to SF to NYC to DC to ATL.

Water.

[Taverner]

4. You may be on to something

SF gets Hetch Hetchy water - which is some of the best natural water you can get. Straight out of the Sierras.

Not sure what water NYC gets, but I think its from the Catskills - again, a tasty source for water

[eyepaddle]

6. The local wild yeasts also play a role in the Sourdough.

Wild yeasts are wondrous critters, sometimes they make fabulous beers--like a good Lambic from Belgium, somethimes they make a killer Sourdough, as in SF. Woe betide the person who tries to make beer with a bread yeast or vice versa though!

[jobycom]

8. Yeah, that's the answer on SF sourdough. In the older bakeries, the yeast

is in the air and the woodwork, so every batch of starter contains it.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

14. And the sweat of the original bakers.

The old bakers used to slap the dough against their t-shirted, sweaty chests while working it -- that practice was stopped when helath codes were adopted. :) Old-timers swore the sourdough never tasted the same after that.

[jobycom]

28. Well, that cures me of eating San Francisco sourdough again.

:puke: :rofl:

[MorningGlow]

7. Yep--I remember reading that quite a while ago

Don't ask me where I saw it, but I never forgot it. :hi:

[Hell Hath No Fury]

13. Yes, water and --

in the case of sourdough -- the air and microbes. That is what makes San Francisco sourdough "San Francisco sourdough" - it cannot be replicated anywhere else because other locales do not share the same environmental specifics. The sourdogh mother with absorb all sorts of goodies from the air around and that is what gives it a taste unique to one place.

[woo me with science]

29. So are you saying

the water is sour in San Francisco, and chewy in New York?

Actually that may have some truth to it...:evilgrin:

[Chan790]

33. LOL.

More like mineral content, hardness, dissolved O2, levels of bromine, chlorine and fluoride. It affects the resultant flavor and qualities of the foods.

Not surprising, water quality affects a lot of things as any professional laundry will tell you.

[TZ]

31. Explain Cleveland then

I think their bagels ( and Deli's) are as good as or better than NY. And that city is NOT known for good quality filtered water

[Chan790]

34. Deli meats likely not produced locally.

It'd be the result of wherever the meat was processed.

As for the bagels, I dunno. I have mentioned that I get better bagels @ MacGruder's imported from Brooklyn than I ever got living in Brooklyn.

It would not surprise me further if Cleveland does in-fact have a more-rigorous water-cleaning program than most cities as its' groundwater was some of the most-polluted in the US for 50+ years.

[Odin2005]

49. I have noticed that stuff baked here in Fargo tastes better than in more rural places.

It must be our water, which is much better than the rural well water.

[jobycom]

10. Barqs rootbeer from Biloxi and french bread from New Orleans, too.

You kind of have to be a local to know what I mean about Barqs, but the french bread they make po'boys from in New Orleans is unlike the stuff they sell everywhere else. It's more airy, the crust is at the same time more chewy, crispy, and flaky. No one outside the region can really reproduce it.

[Taverner]

11. Yes it was!

I had that bread with my Gumbo when there, and yes, it was flaky, but not flaky in a croissant kind of way, flaky in its own beautiful way

[nolabear]

40. Oh my god yes! I worshipped at the Barq's plant as a kid!

We used to drive by it between my grandparents' cafe, where Barq's was second only to Bud as sacred, and our place. Even now I look at where the plant in Ocean Springs used to be, though I know it's been gone forever.

And that French bread makes a Po' Boy a Po' Boy. Hard to believe such a simple sandwich can send yoiu straight to heaven until you try that bread. Yes ma'am.

[LynneSin]

12. Philly Cheesesteaks don't get any better than Pat's - preferably when made at 3am on a Sunday mornin

trust me, if you've done it you know what I'm talking about

[Chan790]

15. The natives get testy about that though.

My brother works in Northern Liberties and lives on South St. and swears Pat's and Geno's are tourist traps. My college roommate was from Manayunk and says the best cheesesteaks are served in small Roxborough/Manayunk Italian greasy spoons. My former roommate (the Wall St. banker I lived with last year until her bf, my best friend from college, got us evicted) grew up in Wilmington and lives in Center City now and says everything but Geno's is a pretender. My fraternity brother Bill claims they're even better if you go out onto the Main Line.

I'm a vegetarian. I'm not getting in that fight.

[Crystal Clarity]

16. Just added Bagels to my must-have list

for when I visit my daughter in Manhattan next week! :9

[Chan790]

17. I'm lucky.

Where I live in Wheaton, MD has a huge Jewish population relocated from NYC and one of the grocery stores locally has them shipped in daily from a bakery in Brooklyn. Expensive: 3 for $2, but worth it.

[Taverner]

18. Dare to send any my way? I'll pay!

Shipping, Handling AND cost - with extra for your troubles.

[Crystal Clarity]

20. Are they seriously that good?...

that you'd want them sent all the way out to California, or are you pulling my leg? I'd be happy to do it if you really want me to.

Of course I'd need to know what venders/shops supply your favs, but my daughter might be able to help me w/that if you are no longer up on the best places to get them. My daughter lives in the East Village btw. Is that a good area for them or somewhere else?

[Taverner]

21. As good as SF Sourdough!

Seriously, I would love some fresh bagels from NYC. They are that good and I'll pay for shipping!

Online they cost 3x the price for FedEx shipping

But if it weighs too much, and you break down eating them all, I understand :)

[Crystal Clarity]

23. OK then

I'll do it as long as it won't be too much of a hassle (ie having to go too far out of her neighborhood) for ex. You can pm me w/the details if you want.

I kind of like the idea of having 'a mission' beyond shopping, site-seeing, and stuffing my own face... lol :-)

[Taverner]

22. Or, if you want, I can send you some SF Sourdough

Seriously, that stuff is good too!

[Demoiselle]

19. I'd rather eat Lender's bagels (from my freezer!)

than any of the "fresh baked" bagels available around here in Philly. The local ones are all poufy and not chewy enough. Maybe there is somebody around here who can make a real "New York" bagel but I haven't found it yet.
Now, as for hoagies and cheesesteaks....Only in Philly. But I can't tell ya which ones here are best.

[Chan790]

35. Where in Philly are you?

Try closer to Roxborough, pretty much all the best baked goods I found in Philly were around "Rox-burra" as the locals slurred it.

[Demoiselle]

37. I'll try. Although I don't live far from there now..

Of course, I live in Chestnut Hill, which is reputed to be the High Wasp Capitol of the World. The neighborhood wouldn't know from bagels. (Actually, that's an old stereotype. The Hill is far more diverse than it used to be, I'm happy to say. )

[tigereye]

38. thereis nothing like a NY bagel with a shmear... complete with "attitude"

We have fairly good bagels here in Pgh (large Jewish population in Sg. Hill), but not as good since the chains mostly took over from the old-fashioned family- owned places.

But they still are nothing like the real thing. My uncle used to bring them from NYC when he visited my parents when we were kids.

[Swede]

25. That's just your opinion.

Good food is everywhere,good chefs are everywhere,good bakers are everywhere,etc etc....

[Tikki]

27. Santa Maria has the best Tri-tip B-B-Q...

Tikki

[Xipe Totec]

32. Don't expect an argument from me

My best meal EVER,

was Dungeness crabs, San Francisco sourdough bread, and Anchor Steam beer.

That the meal took place in Houston, and that the crabs were live (I cooked them myself) makes the experience all the more special.

PS: The sourdough was flown in from San Francisco. Along with the live crabs and Anchor Steam Beer.

[flying rabbit]

36. and BBQ is best in KC

http://www.arthurbryantsbbq.com/

[Chan790]

39. In a pig's eye!

People from KC think BBQ is supposed to be slathered in some sort of sweetened smokey ketchup. That's rib sauce. :eyes:

Real BBQ is from the Carolinas and is made with vinegar-based sauce at low temperature over many hours over a smokey pit.

[nolabear]

41. Bingo! My mouth waters just thinking of it. Pulled pig with coleslaw, yummm.

[applegrove]

42. Montreal bagels are pretty dam fine too.

[KamaAina]

43. (A)pizza is best in New Haven.

Sorry, Brooklyn and Boston. As for Chicago and Detroit... :eyes:

[Chan790]

47. Truth.

Apizza is better than NY knockoffs and Chicago dishes which should rightfully be called an open-faced potpie of some sort and not a pizza. I can respect the grilled style of CA but it's not the New Haven pie of my youth; the greatest pie in America.

[Kali]

44. there is a great local band in Tucson

called Crawdaddy-O they are kind of cajun/NO jazz/brass punk band
they have a song called Bagel Man - thought you might get a kick out of it, but I can't find any examples - thought the local station would have a podcast of one of their on-air appearances from last year but guess not



any way thank you for making me think of this and go looking I just bought a copy - been wanting it for a while

[KamaAina]

45. Actually, proper sourdough can be made anywhere in our coastal climate zone

Zanotto's market in San Jose used to have a damn fine version from Watsonville (between Santa Cruz and Monterey). Haven't seen it the last couple of times I've been in there, though. :(

[Brother Buzz]

46. The best sourdough is baked in Marin

Bordenave's has been a family owned business for four generations, founded in 1918. Bordenave's has undergone only minor changes, none of them in their recipes.The original brick ovens were replaced by more modern ones in the 1970's. The original bread recipes of Frank Bordenave are used today by his descendants.

Bordenave's bread is served in the finer restaurants simply because it's the best.

To stop off at Bordenave's and pick up a few loafs still HOT from the over and get home with them still warm enough to melt butter is a life changing experience.

[Tikki]

48. Oh my...sounds so YUMMY....

The kind of sourdough that bites you a bit.
I'd have that with a fine French Onion Soup
( with a small cup of Parmesan cheese accompanying)
and a green salad with either sardines or anchovies.

Tikki

[pink-o]

50. Okay, engaging in SF Chauvinism and nostalgia, you would think I'm a native

However, I was born in Baltimore where my great grandfather was the big Kahuna Rabbi in the congregation. Even when we moved to SF I always had great bagel, cuz my dad would never have accepted anything less. Back when I was a kid, my gentile schoolmates would ask me if my bagel was a donut--but by the 70s, bagelmania had hit America.

So the Sarah Lees of the world made these fake bagels: just white bread in the right shape. Real bagels are boiled before being baked, which no one seems to do anymore. Even Noah's bagels, with all their pix of life on the lower East Side, aren't "real" Jewish bagels.

Lenderer's are authentic, but they're frozen, so they'll never taste like the chewy, fresh ones you get in NY delis. We need west coast bakers to get with the program!!

As for SF sourdough....Best.Bread.Ever. Even when I lived in London and France for awhile, I missed our bread of Ambrosia. I remember one time I was with the ex-husband, and we'd just scarfed down a meal of total carbs at North Beach Pizza. Well, there was a bakery on Grant where you could just walk into the kitchen, pay a buck for a baguette, and they'd give it to you fresh from the oven. We bought 2, and believe me, neither made it all the way home! Good thing I was young in those days and carbs didn't go straight to the waistline!

It's the water, and the drippy fog that supposedly makes our bread taste like no other!