pronunciation question for German speaking DUers

[Budgies Revenge]

I'm getting a German Shepherd puppy and I want to name him Bärchen. Unfortunately, I'm getting some conflicting information on how exactly to pronounce this word.
Is it:

--bear-shen
--bear-hen with a slight hiss sound on the "H"
--bear-chen with the "ch" pronounced like the Scottish word "loch"

or none of the above?

Thanks for any advice!

[ZombieNixon]

1. Kind of halfway between the second and third.

"ch" before E or I is sort of like a "hyah" kind of sound, but with your tongue quite flat and very close to your hard palate (roof of the mouth). There's no way to transcribe the sound in English, and English speakers usually resolve it as "sh" or Scottish-style "ch."

[VenusRising]

2. I didn't know that you spoke German.

:hi:

[ZombieNixon]

12. Well, I'm not particularly good at it.

I learned enough to get around in Switzerland a few years ago. Though I do feel secure that my pronunciation is pretty good. :hi:

[VenusRising]

15. That's so cool!

It's always fun to learn new things about your friends. :hug:

[tango-tee]

19. That was a really good description you gave!

I'm a native German speaker, but would have contorted myself into a pretzel trying to come up with a "recipe" as good as yours!

[ZombieNixon]

33. I'll admit to being good at pronouncing words

even in languages I don't know. Ever since I studied the International Phonetic Alphabet at age 15 and learned about the concept of a "phoneme," I've been able to make my tongue do some really weird things.

[tango-tee]

34. That's interesting! I need to do some research on the "phoneme" concept.

There are some languages that I love to listen to (while not understanding a word), Russian, Polish and Czech for example. I've attempted to learn to pronounce even just single words, which has turned out to be tremendously difficult. The sounds by native speakers are so melodic and soft and flowing, but once I open my mouth it all just sounds garbled. Sort of like "wrzlbrmpf".

I've always admired people with an "ear" for languages. My best friend is a linguist, a native English speaker, but also speaks Russian, Czech, Fanti (her husband's native language) and German. Fluently. OMG. Here I am as an ESL speaker, happy to get along in *one* other language...

[Budgies Revenge]

5. Okay,

I think I understand the sound you are referring to. The way I've heard it explained is almost like the sound you get if you very quietly whisper the word "yes"--or whispering the word "he" (but without sounding the "e", so all you get is the exhalation sound).
I want to try and get this right--but I have a feeling that some friends and relatives my just end up calling him "Bear" or "Bearshen" for simplicity sake.:)

[tango-tee]

13. Stimmt!

ZombieNixon is correct with his recommendation. It's really difficult for most Americans to get the "ch" sound right. Try not to pronounce it as far back in the throat as you would in "loch". It'll take a little practice.

[tigereye]

48. I'm remembering years of German classes, and there's a little "hih-ke" sound

right before, if I recall. Although I think the way that folks pronounce certain words and phrases in any language tend to have something to do with the dialect of the teacher, too.

[LeftyMom]

3. ZN is correct, but why are you giving your dog a name you can't pronounce?

:shrug:

[Budgies Revenge]

6. That is a very good question!

And I am now questioning the wisdom of this choice. Originally, I was looking up words for "Bear" in other languages--My father passed away in January and that was his nickname--and I figured that since the dog was a German Shepherd, I should go for something German. So when I found the German word for "Little Bear", it seemed perfect. It was only after this decision that I ran into some difficulty....

[Zavulon]

8. LeftyMom is correct.

Try one of the name here instead: http://german.about.com/library/blhunde01.htm

[LeftyMom]

10. Zavulon ist richtig.

Sorry, I just wanted to keep the circle of correctness affirmation intact. I have a strange sense of humor.

[Zavulon]

32. I feel like crap for doing this, LeftyMom, especially since

you just backed me up, but the way a native would say that is "Zavulon hat recht." To say "Zavulon ist richtig" is a technically a description of me, not what I said. A native speaker would understand you, but it isn't the way they'd say it. :hide:

If you add an adjective, it can mean "really" as in "Zavulon is richtig geil" ("Zavulon is really cool") and, after this unsolicited correction, the hopefully untrue "LeftyMom ist richtig sauer auf Zavulon" ("LeftyMom is really mad at Zavulon"). :)

Apologies for the unsolicited correction, but this is force of habit from my childhood. I remember my father (born and raised in Leipzig) going off on me in a huge way when I was a little kid every time I would say "Er / sie ist richtig" (the fact that I was learning German, English and Russian all at the same time did not earn me any sort of break).

That was one of two things I could do to really piss him off linguistically - the other would be to refer to East Germany as the DDR (pronounced "day day AIR," the German 'Democratic' Republic) without putting the word "sogenannte" ("so-called") in front of it. Hop into a time machine, go do that (say just "DDR" instead of "sogenannte DDR") in my house when I'm growing up, and you'll earn yourself an hour-long political lecture every time, getting a detailed rundown of how the Soviets turned his beloved hometown into a shithole, all starting with the inevitable correction to your words - beginning with his infamous and daily "Wie oft muss ich dir sagen...?".

[LeftyMom]

41. No problem. High school language classes were a loooooong time ago.

Thanks for the correction.

[MissHoneychurch]

42. I would love to talk to you

about your experiences. I was born in Jena and also lived 7 years in Leipzig before the wall came down. Thank goodness for that.

[Zavulon]

58. PM me any time

:hi:

[tango-tee]

56. Echt geil, deine Erklärung!

Du hast völlig recht.

OMG, "Wie oft muss ich dir sagen...?" was one of my parents' standard phrases, too!

And isn't it strange how the word "geil" has taken on a completely different meaning just during the past decade or so. From "horny, lewd, in heat" to "cool".

[Zavulon]

57. That amuses me, too.

It's sort of how "gay" went from "happy" to "homosexual," just in a shorter timespan. :)

[Zavulon]

9. My first thought and question as well.

I just posted a link with a ton of far more suitable Haustiernamen.

[tango-tee]

20. Well, depending on the breed, "Little Bear" might just be fitting.

I wouldn't exactly use it for a Weenie Dog or Yorkie, but for a Newfoundland pup it would be perfect!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

4. ZN is right

The "chen" ending is pronounced like "hyen," only with more friction on the "h."

Also, the vowel in the "bär" part is pronounced like the Northeastern U.S. or British pronunciation of "Barry."

[BeatleBoot]

7. My dog keeps my neighbors up all night with all of his Barchen

excuse my lack of umlaut.

:rofl:


Don't mind me I'm just happy tonight!

[MiddleFingerMom]

11. You, sir... WIN THE INTERTUBES!!!!

.
.
.
.
.
Budgies Revenge, I DOUBLE-DOG-DARE YA to name your dog "Barkin".
.

.

[tango-tee]

14. Even worse than the "ch" for Americans is the "ü".

Did that give you trouble when you were over here, such as the difference between "schwül" and "schwul"?

[MiddleFingerMom]

18. I was ok with the umlaut u...

.
...but it took me forever to realize the "au" (umlaut u) was
pronounced more like "oy" then "aw".
.
:hi:
.

[Budgies Revenge]

16. Thanks for all

the help and suggestions! I'll look over some of the other names at the link (I think that was actually the place where I found the name "Bärchen" in the first place)....or maybe I'll just give into the inevitable and call him "Bear" if I can't get the pronunciation right.

[Rabrrrrrr]

17. Nice post, Hitler. Why not just name him Adolf?

Or Jewshredder?

Geeeeeez.... :P :rofl:

Ba(umlaut)rchen - great pun! I love it!!

[woo me with science]

27. or Helen! nt

[MissHoneychurch]

21. OK

Bärchen = B-"air"-shen

That is the closest. Absolutely not the hard ch like in loch.

[nuxvomica]

23. Wouldn't it be the hard "ch" if spoken in Hochdeutsch?

:shrug:

[MissHoneychurch]

24. In the word "Hochdeutsch" yes

but not in Bärchen

after a,o,u the ch is spoken hard

after e, i the ch is spoken soft, as well as after ä.

[nuxvomica]

25. All these years I've been pronouncing "Ich" as "Ick"

Thanks for setting me straight. :-)

[MissHoneychurch]

26. You just used the Berlin dialect

they say "icke" instead of "ich" :)

[tango-tee]

35. What is really odd here in Germany...

... it's such a small country - about half the size of Texas - but we have a wide range of dialects. And those dialects are so distinct from one another that I've seen interviews on German TV with Bavarians subtitled for the rest of the country. Ditto interviews with people from "Way Up North" who speak Plattdeutsch... subtitled.

I'm from Franconia, roughly the area encompassing Nuremberg-Würzburg-Bayreuth, which is officially part of Bavaria (just never make the grave mistake of calling us Bavarians!), but even the dialects in this small area can be differentiated into Lower, Upper and Central Franconian. And then there are the distinct dialects of Lower and Upper Bavarian. Very, very strange, especially when you look at this tiny slice of earth on a map.

[DFW]

22. It's difficult to describe a sound not in your native language

But Miss Honeychurch's is as good as any!

[hayu_lol]

28. Good grief...don't get into...

all the dialects. LOL.

[DFW]

29. I held back, believe me!

I also have a decent command of Züricher "Mundart" and Cloppenburg Pladdutsch.

[Call Me Wesley]

30. Proscht Nägeli!

Stärneföifisiechnomal!

I grew up there, but now, every time I hear someone really speak Zürich 'Mundart,' I just want to say: 'Heb dini blöödi Schnurre, Du bireweiche Schafseckel.' I think it's the dialect with the most swear-words ever counted ...

;)

[tango-tee]

39. Himmeldonnerwetter!

Okay, will follow your recommendation and shut up. But what is "bireweiche"? Loosely translated, could that mean a bit soft in the brain department? Schafseckel I can translate... will not elaborate on that.

Ha!

[Call Me Wesley]

43. Soft head. Don't ask me where it comes from.

Same goes for 'Schafseckel.' I mean, what? :rofl:

[tango-tee]

40. Damn... Sorry, I just waded into those.

What can I say?

[tango-tee]

37. Hi DFW! As a counterpart for the difficult "ch" sound ... there is the infamous "th" for Germans!

No such sound in our language, with ensuing hilarity from native English speakers because so many Germans *really* sound like Colonel Klink. "Th" turns into "S".

"Se weaser forecast says sere will be sunder storms in se area". As an alternative, it is often turned into a "D". "De weader forecast says dere will be dunder storms in de area".

[Call Me Wesley]

44. You sure know this gem:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHaW-KxA0sg

[MissHoneychurch]

45. Evelyn Hamann at her best

:thumbsup:

Cracks me up every time I see it.

[Call Me Wesley]

46. I still fully adore Loriot.

I mean to come up with a slogan like "Es saugt und bläst der Heinzelmann, wo Mutti sonst nur saugen kann," in the Seventies was great! :hi:

[tango-tee]

50. I loved Evelyn Hamann.

She was one hell of a comedian.

And come to think of it.. remember Loriot's sketch about the horse race: "Ja, wo ist er denn? Wo läuft er denn?".

[tango-tee]

49. No...!!! I've never seen that one before!

I have the hiccups from laughing so hard, plus ::wheezing::

Loriot is a treasure anyway. Do you remember his classic sketch with the noodle wandering across the suitor's face as he's talking to his lady love? Priceless.

[MissHoneychurch]

52. I hate the noodle

I find just disgusting. Even though I know it wasn't a noodle but a wet piece of paper they had to attach again and again. Still I can't watch it.

[Call Me Wesley]

53. LOL!

But it was great, and the disgusting part was totally intentional. But here's something political for you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msizyUXR-no

"Was bin I?"

[Call Me Wesley]

54. Noodle sketch is a classic.

But I especially love this one. Reminds me of DU, too. ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BXEG6AznuM

[tango-tee]

55. Indeed, this represents DU at its finest.

I wanted to send you my favorite, but can't find it... It's the one about an artist performing in front of a high-brow audience, and all he says is "Hurrrt" in various inflections. The reactions in the audience - priceless.

This is one of my favorites by Gerhard Polt, I suppose because I don't know whether to laugh or cry:

http://opherden.com/polt/gerhard/mailing.htm

[Call Me Wesley]

59. Gerhard Polt is great!

And I think you're looking for Hape Kerkeling's 'Hurz.' :rofl:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAx0P-8n5K4

[tango-tee]

60. That's it! Thanks!

Another all-time favorite is Hape Kerkeling as Horst Schlämmer for Bundeskanzler.

There's no "peeing-on-myself-because-laughing-so-hard" smilie, is there?

[Call Me Wesley]

61. Did you see the one he's Queen Beatrix?

And all he wants is 'lecker essen ...'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3YlBZ2VFzs

[MissHoneychurch]

62. And don't forget his Grand Prix

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDAe1SSHKwk

:rofl:

"Hurz" is my favorite Sketch from Hape.

[Call Me Wesley]

63. Here's another favorite of mine ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_rEajcyrlE&feature=related

[tango-tee]

64. Oh hell, he was more like Queen Beatrix than Beatrix herself.

The way he royally waved his hand...

This guy is *good*.

[DFW]

47. I've noticed. Strange, as so many other Europeans have the "th" as well

English isn't the only language with this sound.

There are many parts of Italy whose local dialects have the sound. Castilian ("Spanish") has it, although
other languages spoken on the Iberian peninsula (notably Catalan and Portuguese) do not, and, of course,
Greek and Icelandic, though not too many people in Europe even get to hear Icelandic spoken. The Icelanders
even have their own letter(s) for it, ð if voiced, and Þ if not. Irish still uses it, too, probably some
of the other Celtic languages as well, although they aren't exactly heard too much on the continent, either.
Spanish and Greek are heard a lot in Germany, though, so it isn't such a foreign sound any more to Germans,
just difficult!

[ZombieNixon]

51. English and Icelandic are the only Germanic languages that still have those "th" sounds

All the rest resolved them into T or D long ago. Irish doesn't actually have the sound anymore. It used to, and still uses the "th" digraph, but now it actually represents an H sound. While (European) Spanish does have "th", its represented by Z or C, so the English phrase "this thing" written phonetically in Spanish would be "zis zing" or "cis cing." People's tongues get used to certain positions and combinations, especially if they only speak one language, so a foreign pronunciation can easily throw them for a loop.

[Budgies Revenge]

31. So to recap....

I am getting reasonably close if I just pronounce the name:

Bair-shen

Out of curiosity, is dialect the reason that some people are recommending a "hyen" sound and others are recommending a more straightforward "shen"? Or is it more because the "ch" is so difficult for English speakers to master?

Thanks again for all responses.

[tango-tee]

38. It's both.

There are regions in Germany where the "ch" is pronounced as "sh".

So, your best bet is to just not worry about it and call your pup "Bär - ken" or "Bär - shen"... whichever is easiest!

[JVS]

36. "ä" is the equivalent of the vowel "e" in German. So "Bär" would rhyme with "Der"

As far as the ch, watch this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9Y-eKVuF1s for Bärchen it should be the ch that is lower in the mouth (the one the girl says goes after I). It's not quite the English "sh" sound, but definitely not how Loch sounds.

[Budgies Revenge]

65. Presenting Bärchen

Thanks again for everyone's help.

[MissHoneychurch]

66. OMG

cute overload!!!

Have fun with Bärchen

[mnhtnbb]

67. What a cutie!

[Tikki]

68. SOoooo Cute.....

Fun days ahead for you two...


Tikki

[Mr. Ected]

69. Bear Shen

Different German dialects will pronounce this differently.

The "ch" sound can be guttural and roughly resemble the sound of "hocking up a loogie".