So, my marriage is basically going down the tubes...

[mreilly]

... and I don't even care. The fact I don't care about a 14-year-old relationship is why I'm posting, because I feel I SHOULD care... but I don't.

We have 3 kids and if not for them I'd have been gone 7 or more years ago. Because, folks, I am wrong. Wrong about everything. And not only that, I'm stupid, too. And not very attractive, at least not enough worth commenting on with even a "You look nice" if I don a shirt and tie. Aaaaaand, sex is a chore to be endured so long as the wife is not: A) tired, B) watching a TV show, C) reading a book, D) stressed, E) blabbing on the phone endlessly or F) miscellaneous (miracle that three offspring were produced). These are notions I have been carefully programmed with by my wife, who, as you must also see, folks, is always right. About everything. And on the rare occasions when she is not, if you should point that out somehow, even inadvertently, you are being a judgmental prick, despite a constant onslaught of judgment aimed in your direction day after day after day. Day in, day out. Like a fucking fire hose. Over every, single, solitary, choice.

Relationships without communication don't work. It's a known fact. However, some relationships WITH communication work even less, and will fall apart much more quickly. If you speak your mind, you might well be told your feelings are invalid, or don't exist. You may be told you're wrong to have an opinion. You might find that the other person simply steamrolls over whatever the hell you want to think. You may see that it's completely counterproductive to EVER start a sentence with "I feel that you..." or "When you do that I makes me think that..." You will come to the conclusion that outsiders who recommend marriage counseling or therapy are clueless since such concepts require two parties to admit there is a problem. And why the hell should one party admit a problem when the only time there is such a problem is if someone else refuses to see that her version of reality is the right one?

No, you might just learn to sit down, shut up, keep your head down, and remain invisible, because you have three children together and know that you want to be wherever your kids are, and remain a daily force in their lives, aching every day to tell a domineering pain in the ass to go to hell, get to the back of the bus, and shut the fuck up, because you're taking the reins and the belittling, condescending, judgmental shit has come to a screeching halt, and it's now my way or the highway, babe. But that's going to wind up in crossed swords every single moment, fighting tooth and nail over every choice. With the animosity dial turned up from 30-50 all the way to 100. Each and every day. But no, you're a nice guy, and you try to do the right thing; to reason, remain calm, and be a hero.

This is where our quick-fix, easy-answer culture takes us sometimes; with silly notions that marriage is "happily ever after" without giving us the tools and the skills and the abilities we need to find the appropriate mate and weed out those that won't be compatible as long-term partners. All we need to do is get to the altar, we are told, and everything will work itself out. "Love will find a way." Well, love fades - at least the infatuated love between two adults; I've become convinced the only true love is that between parent and child, siblings or other relatives NOT based on a mutual agreement to be in one another's lives - and leaves you high and dry, without the ability to go further or go back down, like a climber on Mt. Everest stranded at Camp 3. We spend a few months or even a year or two thinking about how much we want to be with someone, and then when it happens and times of trouble arrive we may spend years thinking how much we want to get away from them. When I was younger my life's dream was to find someone who would be a soulmate that I could share life with. Now as 40 roars towards me I dream about getting my kids raised and then enjoying my last 20-30 years as a bachelor, free of blame, judgment, criticism and condescension; just a guy trying his best to be a good guy who is no longer told in every way possible what a fuckup he is. This is what life reduces us to if we pick the wrong path. Hoping beyond all hope just to get back to where we were (25) before we made the wrong choice.

Enough of the self-pitying bullshit. Pick your partners wisely folks: and always look ahead to how they might be in 5, 10 or 20 years. Is there a little thing about them that bugs you now? Well, that crack will become a chasm as the years go by if you don't patch it and address it now. And even if you think someone is close to what you want, ask whether the things they aren't will one day outweigh the things they are. Because the differences will outweigh the similarities, and even the small minor things will one day become roadblocks if left unchecked.

[flying rabbit]

1. Best wishes

That's all I got. :hug:

[A HERETIC I AM]

2. This fellow settles into his airline seat chuckling quietly to himself....

and he says to the guy sitting next to him

"You know how sometimes you mix up the first letters of words? Just a few minutes ago when I was buying my tickets, I asked the lady at the counter for "one picket to Tittsburgh". I was so embarrassed!"

The other guy says

"Yeah, I know what you mean. Just the other day I was sitting at the breakfast table with my wife of fifteen years and instead of saying "Honey, could you please pass the strawberry jam" I said "You insufferable bitch, you've ruined my life!"

Sorry man, thought you could use a laugh.

Best of luck.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

3. I'm so sorry to hear this...

You live with her; it's not really a marriage.

Time to go...

Let your feet take you where your heart and head have already gone. You'll need a very good lawyer too...

You need to stay connected to your children, for both your sake and theirs.

I did marry the right guy for me. We respect and love each other. We've had our bumpy places and arguments to be sure, but we respect each other, and we always have...

And without respect, there is no marriage. Love is based on it.

Good luck to you.

:hug:

[Broken_Hero]

4. I'm sorry that you

are going through this, some aspects that you bring up, ring true in my own relationship, but stay strong, and do your best. :hug:

[mreilly]

5. Thanks

I am so tired of thinking how I'll be the bad guy if I walk out, get an apartment, file for divorce and politely request joint custody of our kids. How I'll be accused of abandonment. How I'll be suspected of infidelity (I seriously doubt I will ever engage in another relationship again). How I'll be the one who couldn't hold to the commitment. As far as I'm concerned, the commitment fell apart the moment my wife decided she was not obligated to live by her vow to "love and honor" me but instead find fault with every second of my existence.

My best chance is pure emotional detachment to get through the next 10-15 years. Pay just enough attention to the wife to find out what we need to do for the kids, or what the household needs in order to continue functioning. No more. Harmonious co-raising of the kids. Zero expectations on my part other than these priorities. Desire (unmet expectations) leads to suffering, which means reduce or eliminate the desire to reduce or eliminate the suffering. And when the time comes to walk, do it cleanly and with all possible dignity.

[liberaltrucker]

6. Been there, done that my friend

TWICE!!!

x(

Best of luck.

:hug:

[cbdo2007]

7. I just feel sorry for your kids.

and No, I don't think staying in a bad marriage is better than divorce.

It sounds like the kid's lives are f*cked either way at this point. Best of luck to them.

[Kali]

10. yeah after reading the whole thing I agree

passive hatred of the spouse is not good for the kids AT ALL. they know. This needs professional work or a divorce - and even that is going to need professional moderation!

[Brickbat]

48. Totally agree. Staying in a loveless marriage teaches children that marriage is loveless.

Sometimes it really is better to separate.

[Kali]

8. ...

didn't read the whole thing yet but this caught my eye:

"I feel that you..." or "When you do that I (sic - I am guessing you meant "it") makes me think that..."

try this: "I feel..." as in I feel sad, or I feel hurt.

"I think..." OR "Why did you..." and then listen to the answer.

You are "blaming" her in both of those attempts to say what you feel. Just say it without the "you" stuff.

She doesn't MAKE you think or feel, you think or feel are your own reactions. Own them. "That hurts me." is harder to dismiss than "When you do that I think you are trying to hurt me". You are second guessing motive and you can't really prove it. Stating "that hurts" is a fact. She can still be dismissive of it, but it is now completely clear what is going on, whereas the other version can be seen as an attack on her.

[mreilly]

11. Thanks but..

... tried that, and every permutation thereof. The formula is simple: if you have a problem with anything she says or does, it's your problem. She's above reproach or blame. All her comments and actions are pure and without fault. Ergo, becoming offended, perturbed or upset by anything on her part is somehow your fault.

I'll give you an example. In my wife's world, she's allowed to point out every single shortcoming, mistake or failure on my part. She is very quick to hold my feet to the fire on every single statement. Recently she told our oldest son she ran a marathon. Humorously (or so I thought) I told him: "Well, Mom COMPLETED a marathon, but she didn't run the whole thing. She ran part of it and walked the rest." This kind of clarification is the exact same type my wife utters daily about me, and she does so without hesitation if she ever even so much as thinks I am trying to play "fast and loose" with the truth. Anywhere. Anytime.

As you might guess, this unhinged her. Badly. She erupted with all sorts of noxious and nasty comments, even going so far as to jeer at me that I, an amateur jogger who does 4-5 miles at a stretch, could never hope to complete a marathon, period. How dare I point out the inaccuracies of her comment? Not only that, but she brought it up again weeks later. It was just so awful of me, to contradict her in front of our son. What a horrible son of a bitch I am.

Those following along might be tempted to say she's insecure. Not at all. She's actually one of the most smugly secure people I've ever known. Let's kill a myth tonight: people who belittle the fuck out of other people aren't always motivated to do so because they're insecure and need to "prop themselves up." No, they might also do so because they are TOO secure and think they are perfect, and thus everyone around them will automatically fall short without expert guidance at all times.

I do agree completely, though - I will own my reactions. The secret to getting through this is to completely untie my self-esteem from anything my wife thinks or believes. I could come across a highway accident and save four out of five people by administering CPR and calling 911. She'd criticize me for moving too slowly to save the fifth person. I could either feel like a heel based on her input or pat myself on the back for saving four lives, realizing my own opinions were all that counted. I choose the latter.

[Kali]

12. you sound like you are toxic to each other

if you really care about the kids you should get out of there, stop blaming her for everything and stay 100% neutral about her when you are with them. Go see a therapist - if she won't go it doesn't matter - you need to do it so you can be healthy for yourself and your kids.

Really. They are being affected, you are BOTH setting horrible examples for them. Staying in a toxic relationship "for the kids" is NOT healthy for yourself or them. Show them that you are willing to take care of yourself so that they learn how to do the same.

[Skittles]

13. pretty much what I was thinking

why don't people quit sooner; why do they wait until it gets so fucking ugly

[blueamy66]

23. and have kids

This is what I don't understand.

No offense to the poster, but why have kids?

[pitohui]

35. it's prob. the having kids that caused it in the first place

let's face it, the best marriages i know of are childless -- we've all seen it over and over again, the worst marriages are the ones where there are rug rats involved

having the kids and being tired all the time kills the sex, and once the sex is dead, then everybody's cranky and bitchy about everything and just looking for crap to criticize

[seabeyond]

37. lol, some of us manage to not only like our kids, but get along AND have sex

with our partners

lordy..... if that is you perception, do stay away from that choice.

[blueamy66]

41. I know the post wasn't directed at me....

but, I have chosen to NOT have children.

Why bring them into this cesspool of a world?

[seabeyond]

47. i totally agree with individual choices. i dont agree

with projecting personal choices onto another.

why bring them into???...

well, they are happy to be here and a huge joy and fun and enlightenment they can bring to a parents life.

and those that would not gain that from having kids and creating an environment for the kids they are happy to be a part of

should be perfectly content in their choice not to have kids.

[Maine-ah]

49. lol, and some of us still have GREAT sex

after 15 years of being together :)

it may only be down to once or twice a week now, but it's even better than when we got together.

[seabeyond]

50. agree.

was telling 15 yr old son about these posts. he appreciated hearing he is valued. appreciated. and enjoyed

instead of a pain in the ass that ruins marriages..... geeez

[Common Sense Party]

54. What a load of steaming shit.

Let's face it, the best marriages I know have children.

There. My experience negates your experience.

What an insipid observation on your part.

[Orrex]

26. I think it's a mistake to look for a concrete, rational "why" in situations like this

It amounts to Monday-morning-quarterbacking, and it's not especially helpful in any case.

I mean, it's not as if the OP sat down on day one and said "I want to guarantee my own misery for the next 14 years, and here's how I'll do it..."

It's an incremental process a la boiling the frog. Each capitulation and concession is a tiny step in one direction or the other, until a decade and a half later you're miles from where you thought you'd be.

At this point it does no good to say "you should have done X ten years ago," because this isn't ten years ago.

[leeroysphitz]

9. Hey, I know that girl... n/t

[raccoon]

51. Girl? Sounds like she's nearing 40. nt

[Lex]

14. It's seldom all one person's fault in the marriage.

For the sake of your children, go get some marriage counseling and see if you two can figure out how to respect each other more.

[Ikonoklast]

28. I'm willing to bet his wife would be unwilling to attend more than one session.

Counselors are fairly adept at quickly figuring out who is the abuser in a relationship, and make no mistake about it, this is emotional abuse.

And when called on it, the abuser will refuse to participate in any more counseling.

[tango-tee]

15. This is a terrible situation.

And you are not doing your kids a favor by staying in this marriage. Get out in a decent manner and remain close to your kids' hearts. Once you start reclaiming your life without all the animosity you face on a daily basis. you'll feel like a sack of wet conrete has been lifted off your chest.

Wishing you all the best!

[Sultana]

16. Awww, so sorry

:hug:

[XemaSab]

17. .

:hugs:

[MrMickeysMom]

18. You have 3 kids, you're 40ish, and experience, and that's gonna carry you through.

After closing the chapter, if it's necessary, you should go back to building up whatever she/you/both of you tore down. You'll need to do this for yourself. You're worth it.

You'll be okay.

My own brother waited too long, so by the time he was celebrating his 40th anniversary, he finally saw it. What had happened during the last 10 years of that relationship has almost brought him to the brink of disaster.

Believe...

[grasswire]

19. I stayed too long in a verbally abusive marriage

My husband was/is a toxic narcissist. It took me many years to get over the effects of the emotional battering. So I can relate to what you are saying.

I'm a bit curious about whether you have had any counseling. Often an abusive spouse will resist therapy. Is that the case here?

I can only advise you to act with honor and take the high road as you process the separation. Be calm. Be as generous as you can afford to be. You won't be sorry about that aspect, and your children will respect you.

Best wishes to you. Be sure you have a good lawyer who will protect your children from manipulation.

[travelingtypist]

20. You need a swift kick in the ass.

Maybe a little commiseration to start, but dude, seriously, get the fuck out. You're not a martyr or a hero because you stay and suffer. You're a fucking idiot.

Document every situation, date, time, everything said by everyone. This sort of a journal becomes a legal document. After a period of time, take this to a lawyer. Ask the lawyer how do you leave this hellish situation without losing your kids or being accused of X, Y, and Z. And then do exactly what the lawyer tells you.

You're not doing the kids any favors by letting this go on.

[NewJeffCT]

29. Good advice

If you went for an initial consultation with the lawyer, she or he would tell you to document everything as well.

[lazarus]

21. I take issue

with the assumption that you'll not get the kids in a divorce. Yes, things are still slanted against men in family court, but it's changing. Fight for them. If she's that bad, you definitely don't want her being the main influence in your kids' life.

Contact a good lawyer who specializes in fathers' custody, and do whatever he/she tells you to do. Document everything, even the most petty bullshit. It may seem petty and small, but 400 pages of petty small stuff can be overwhelming in court. You're trying to establish a pattern.

In the meantime, focus on your kids and do your best to ignore her until you can get out. Just don't automatically assume she should have custody. That assumption is harmful to men and children. If nothing else, you should go for joint custody. IMO, that should be the default position in all custody cases.

[Maru Kitteh]

22. COUNSELING. What the hell could you possibly have to lose by giving it 6 months?

Face it. You've spent WAY more money on far stupider stuff that trying to save a marriage of 14 years.


Get some counseling alone, separately or together for 6 months, then make a decision from there.

[Mudoria]

24. Time to move on

You're obviously very unhappy and life is far too short to remain in a situation that will bring you nothing but more misery. Be thankful for your children (which I'm sure you are) and remain a focus in their lives but get away from the wife before she drives you over the edge.

[seabeyond]

25. Pick your partners wisely folks:

good post.

marriage is pretty easy for hubby and i. we were older. we had both lived life alone for quite a while and knew what we wanted and didnt want. we both have strong boundaries on respect.

i was reading an article... (there are many studies) ... on a good marriage creating so many goods in life. and what they found in good marriages was an altruistic approach by both mates. i was happy to see and a little surprised. because, that is how hubby and i live. he wants the best and all for me. i want the best and all for him. we both get it.

16 yrs and easy

pick you partners wisely, is so true

little things, even the things that we consider as "bad things" in us, arent big deals in our life.

[UTUSN]

27. Every deserves a good relationship. Time to find it. Will be good for the kids, too. n/t

[AwakeAtLast]

30. I'm so sorry

I know a little of how you feel. I'm in a different situation, but there are some similarities to yours.

You have to do what you know is right for you. If that means working things out - go for it! If that means going your separate ways, the road will be rough but the destination could be paradise.

I don't have a lot of good advice, just this: :hug:

[lunatica]

31. I've been there both as a child and in a marriage

When I was a child my parents should have gotten a divorce many years before they did. My siblings and I were miserable all the time. It's hard on the children because they love both parents and to live with a schism between them is almost unbearable and to realize the reason both parents are staying together is because of them is profoundly painful.

When they finally divorced it was equally painful at first, but they both found a measure of happiness without each other and they both loved us and life went on, but whenever I thought of how they had been when they were married I was glad they separated.

In my marriage I hung in there for 15 years. There were no fights and he was a workaholic who mostly just neglected me on all levels. No matter what my needs were they were simply unimportant. I left him because I realized my soul was withering and I felt it was dying. The thought of spending the rest of my life with him made me WANT to die. I divorced in 1995 and haven't looked back since. The last 15 years I've been the happiest in my life. I never remarried or even had a relationship. I was done.

My favorite saying is "I'd rather be alone than in bad company"

If you choose to get a divorce do it with the dignity you say. Your kids will need that because every single thing you do and say is internalized by them. If you want a relationship that has mutual love and respect you already have it with your children. You need to have it with yourself no matter what choices you make.

[Raven]

32. I tried to resist replying to you, but... here goes:

You will look at yourself in the mirror one day (as I did 35 years ago) and realize that if you don't get out, you will become someone you will not like or admire. Leaving is very hard, especially with children involved, but this is not good for them. You may want to see a counsellor who will help with the leaving.... I had the occasion to be with my Ex this past Fall and the thought that I might not have done what I did 35 years ago just took my breath away. Difficult as it was, it was the best decision I ever made, for myself and my son. It saved my life.

[msanthrope]

33. Quit whining and feeling sorry for yourself.....

You sound passive-aggressive and emotionally distant. You've already checked out of your marriage, but seemingly lack the fortitude to file the paperwork.

Marriage is hard. Really hard. If you walk around in one moaning that you should have gotten out 7 years ago, then you've probably been communicating that fact to your spouse for at least that long. Imagine living with that.

Further, imagine living with a spouse who thinks someone else, out there, is his soul mate. Imagine living with someone who just dreams about "getting his kids raised" and then "enjoying my last 20-30 years as a bachelor." (Note--you not only seem to think there's a terminal point to your marriage, but to being a parent, too. Do you wonder if your kids ever pick up on your ambivalence?)

As for finding your soul mate--well, has it occurred to you that you have found your soul mate? As in, you are living in the marriage you have created--you have exactly what you have put into it.

There's a saying--'every pot has its lid.' The 'marathon' remark you made was deliberately provoking, and you cannot then whine that you got the shit-storm you were seeking. That you did it in front of your children speaks volumes as to what you think of their well-being.

I'm betting that part of the reason you don't leave is because you fear that none of them will miss you....

ETA--there's a reason I don't do family law anymore....I've heard this same story too many times before.

[Pithlet]

34. The marathon remark, just imaging that whole scene just broke my heart for that kid.

Counseling. Just... Counseling. For everyone involved, especially the kids. That's all I can manage to say to the OP. A lot of pain going on, there.

[theNotoriousP.I.G.]

36. You picked up on some very salient points

[seabeyond]

44. IF my hubby felt this way about me, i would want him to have the guts to be honest

and walk.

i wouldnt want to be with a person that didnt like or respect me. and to keep mouth shut and pretend there is something there still in the relationship is wrong

[UTUSN]

45. *I'm* glad you don't practice anymore. n/t

[msanthrope]

55. Oh, I do practice, just not family law. Had a few too many cases

of people taking out their problems on their kids.

[raccoon]

52. Well thought out post, especially what you said about the marathon remark. nt

[Demoiselle]

38. See a counselor by yourself.

I am terribly sorry to read this and I'm not suggesting that counseling can "save' the marriage. But a professional can help you sort through your thoughts and make plans.
I wish you all the best.

[coyote]

39. I don't know...

all I can say is that I wished my parents got divorced when I was still living at home. Later in my life I asked my father why he did not divorce. He told me he wanted to provide my brother and I this ideal of family...a mother, a father, a home. I'll tell you what he provided....a life of hell.

Children are incredibly resilient and it would be best to serve them by getting out. If you are not happy with yourself, nobody else around you will be either.

[Mike 03]

40. I am sorry you have to go through this. I am also sorry for your children.

I also lost a long-term relationship and it is painful beyond belief, but at least we did not have kids.

I wish you the best.

[applegrove]

42. Have you tried marriage counselling? Because being blamed as wrong all the time

is soul sucking. So is being denied.

[kwassa]

43. You actually don't have real communication in your marriage

It is a one-way street.

You need to be willing to walk away from it all. It is not about the kids, it is about you.

[Qanisqineq]

46. I feel bad for you and your children

but as someone whose marriage is also in the shitter, I can bet that she hears much the same from you. My husband always hears that me saying he is wrong. I always hear him saying I am wrong. He thinks I find him unattractive, I think he finds me disgusting. He calls me stupid and selfish and a bitch or whore. He says I call him an idiot and an asshole. I say he never wants sex, he says I never want sex. Whose fault is it really? Depends on who you ask but, either way, we never have sex.

Try paying more attention to what you are doing wrong, too. All I read above is what is wrong with her. I bet you are putting that same type of thing out there in your marriage, too, even if you do not realize it or believe you are.

[raccoon]

53. My $.02 worth. Try marriage counseling, if your spouse will.

Yall may not click with the first counselor you try. I've had some good counselors and some lousy ones.

If she won't go, try seeing a counselor yourself.

And remember, free advice is worth what you pay for it. :hi:

[MissMillie]

56. Wow, you're going through a rough time... sorry

I think it's about picking the wrong person, and/or not learning how to talk to each other early on in the marriage.

I don't think what you had in your marriage was "communication."

I think had you and your wife found your way to counseling early in your marriage, she would know how to talk to you without making you feel "wrong" all the time, and you'd be able to say what you think without feeling you'll rock the boat.

I imagine this is pretty rough for you. I don't know what I'd do if I were in your shoes.

I guess all I can say is...


:hug:

[FedUpWithIt All]

57. There are patterns that form in relationships. Most are pretty common and take work to avoid.

There is little about your OP that is not fairly typical in relationships in which two people have stopped looking at each others needs. These things usually start out slow but grow because people often wait for their partner to reach out to them and initiate change. You can see the conundrum when both parties are simply waiting on the other. You are offering up a lot of blame and very little self evaluation. That speaks volumes.

There are patterns. I would suspect, since your wife's patterns seem quite textbook that yours are as well. These patterns often feed off one another. They are usually quite repairable if either party attempts to recognize the patterns and works to change them. And it only takes one party to begin change.

Regardless of all of the above, it you are finished with the relationship then the relationship is finished. Good luck in whatever path you choose.