So my daughter has decided to become a vegetarian on the grounds

[hedgehog]

that raising meat via agriculture places too heavy a load on the earth's ecosystem. A neighbor bagged a deer out back on our 60 acres and gave us a bag of meat.

Now, there are not enough natural predators in the area to thin the deer herd. I have a pack of coyates out back, but the deer population is still growing. Without hunters to check the population, the deer would overgraze the area, starve during the winter and/or bunch up and spread disease among themselves.

So, given that my daughter's dedication to vegetarianism is based on not eating farmed meat...

[hedgehog]

1. Did I mention that hte deer eat the understory plants and prevent

the full recovery of this land as it reverts to forest?

[madinmaryland]

2. Respect her decision not to eat meat. It also leaves more meat for you.

:D

[noamnety]

5. +1

Showing respect for someone trying to live in accordance with their conscience far outweighs wanting them to eat a burger.

[kentauros]

3. Of course, the hunters won't like this, but....

Nature knows what it's doing, and we only like to think we know more than Nature. If the deer starve because they exhaust their food supply, they learn from that eventually. That's Nature at work :)

As a vegetarian, I don't differentiate between farmed or wild meat. An animal had to die to make the "bag of meat", period. I can't speak for your daughter, but would guess she has that kind of opinion about wild meat somewhere in her mind, too...

[pscot]

12. Deer don't "learn" anything from starving

They learn from being eaten by wolves. But there are no wolves because we killed them all. The deer eat the woods as clean as Central Park, then they eat our gardens. That's nature at work

[kentauros]

16. The ones that survive learn, because anything can starve

and not starve to death. That's also nature at work, as I said.

[Bucky]

26. We should pollute the shit out of the environment and let nature "learn" via mutant cockroaches

Protecting nature takes some maintenance. Just allowing human intrusions into the ecosystem stand because nature will somehow "learn" its way out of whatever crap we throw at it is kinda irresponsible. If we run off the natural predators, as seems to be the case in the OP's area, then some sort of balancing action is required.

[jobycom]

18. If you build it, they will come (and eat it).

They don't care if you think your garden is different than wild plants, they'll eat the garden and any other food source.

But kentauros is right, it will even out if left alone. The deer population will eventually even out to meet the food supply. Darwin will continue to work. The only problem is that the neighborhoods don't usually want to think of their prized as food, whereas the deer do, so the neighborhood considers the deer population too high long before the deer do.

[pscot]

20. This is the new equilibrium

We removed all the predators and the deer have taken over. It's happening all over the country.

[quakerboy]

23. The biologists/ecologists also wont like that

because its not true at all.

They don't learn jack. populations go in boom bust cycles. More food/less predators, and you get a population spike. Then the predators have a population spike based on their food supply, or the food supply is exhausted, and you get a major die off. The strong survive, the less able to adapt die. No individual learns anything, and the next time the predator numbers drop or the food supply increases, it happens all over again.

[GoCubsGo]

4. Lucky you!

If the odds of my having to relocate were not so high, I would have put in an order for some venison with some of my hunting friends. I avoid factory-farmed meat, but love an occasional Bambi burger/chili/steak/roast... We have some big problems with deer overpopulation here in South Carolina. Many of the deer starve or get hit by cars. The coyotes have made their way here, but they're not putting a dent in the populations in most places.

[surrealAmerican]

6. Go ahead and ask her. If she says no, though, don't ask again.

She may have more reasons than she has previously stated.

[baldguy]

7. If she don't want it, can I have it?

[HopeHoops]

8. My wife and I have been vegetarian for 20 years. All 3 of our daughters have chosen to be as well.

They're 14, 16, and 18 and lean, strong, and high achievers. Meat is not a necessary dietary component.

[wickerwoman]

9. Ask her but don't tell her.

Maybe she'd like a burger if the meat isn't farmed, maybe she still wouldn't. (A lot of times if you've been vegetarian for a while, eating meat can make you nauseous and give you digestive problems regardless of where it comes from. The bacteria in your gut that process meat die off if you don't eat it for a while.)

In any case, I would respect her right to eat or not eat whatever she likes as long as she's eating a nutritionally adequate diet.

[unpossibles]

38. good advice

It shows you respect her but are still concerned.

If it helps, don't worry about her, but do encourage her to study up on some nutritional info, although you should also know that it's really hard to not get enough protein even from plants (we humans really do not need that much), and that meat is not some panacea as far as other vitamins and nutrients go. Vitamin B is a little trickier, but that's not a concern unless she's vegan - there are vegan sources of B, btw.

I've been a vegetarian for close to 2 decades and not only do I feel healthier, but it's often cheaper and every doctor visit I go to shows that I am in much better shape all around. It's always frustrated me that my father tries to get me to eat meat, and if anything it just annoys even though I know he probably means well.

[applegrove]

10. Wild animals make some of the most eco-friendly food there is. Venison makes

for a very small carbon footprint as food goes.

[pink-o]

11. How old is your daughter?

I decided to become a Vegetarian when I was 16 years old--in 1971! Back then, in my white, middle-class enclave it was totally unheard of. The adults were convinced I was gonna die, and my mom, an RN, rushed me to the hospital to get bloodwork done after a meatless month. To her credit, she saw that I had no deficiencies whatsoever, and although she didn't support it, she allowed me to continue with no more argument. However, Thanksgiving almost gave my relatives a heart attack when I refused the turkey the first year.

It wasn't just adults. My friends gave me hell for it too, and quit asking me to go to Fast Food places cuz I "made them feel bad". Finally, after I moved to England at age 18, I reverted to omnivorous ways because I couldn't take the reaction anymore.

Okay, times have changed. There is far more education and far more young people opting not to eat meat these days. My own education is also better: I did go back to being veggie in 1977, but I also acknowledge that humans are omnivores and can pretty well get by on a diet of anything. I chose, in modern times, not to eat meat because it is so toxic, so cruel and not necessary to my well-being. But like all personal choices, one should never proselytize and expect others to live by your standards.

Especially about food. Even the liberals on this board go ballistic, more over Meat vs Veg diets than any other subject. And IMHO, you should respect your daughter's choice. I was hounded back into eating meat, when I was probably born to be veggie, because of lack of support. And as long as your daughter eats a balanced diet, and doesn't live on Doritos and Coke, she should be just fine.

[hedgehog]

13. It was a question asked in jest. Whenever my kids didn't want to eat what I cooked, we

always had a box of cheerios handy so no one ever went hungry .

True story though: when one of my other daughters came out, everyone just sort of shrugged. When she announced that she is a vegetarian, then her big brother got upset and tried to talk her out of it!

[Kali]

14. she's entitled to her beliefs/choices, but

the blanket statement "raising meat via agriculture places too heavy a load on the earth's ecosystem" is a crock of shit, so if she wants to be KNOWLEDGEABLE about her impact on the ecosystem she has some more work to do.

[hedgehog]

25. Do you have any references for her? She's studying environmnetal engineering,

so an opposing POV would be of interest.

[Kali]

35. a lot to choose from

My area of "expertise" is range beef in the west, but there is a huge movement to sustainable ag all over the country/world. For actual studies google "sustainable animal agriculture" or similar. Some books for lay people would be anything by Joel Salatin; Dan Dagget's Beyond the Rangeland Conflict documents ecological healing using livestock http://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Rangeland-Conflict-Toward-Works/dp/0966622901/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1261349605&sr=1-1 and he has another book out that I haven't read yet.

This is something else I haven't read yet and want to order http://www.amazon.com/Ranching-West-100th-Meridian-Economics/dp/1559638265/ref=pd_sim_b_2

From the USDA this page has a bunch of stuff: http://afsic.nal.usda.gov/nal_display/index.php?tax_level=1&info_center=2&tax_subject=292

Sources for grass fed and other info: http://www.eatwild.com/

[hedgehog]

36. Should be some good reading there. Thanks!

[david13]

15. It's decided. She has to become a vegetarian hunter. And feed

venison to the needy/poor, etc.
dc

[Bucky]

27. I know you mean well, but the other word for "vegetarian hunter" is...

murderer! OMG!

(Plus vegans are all skinny and lack the marbling that gives most long pork their flavoring)

[david13]

31. If you eat a tomato, you have to kill it first. You are killing it by

eating it.
Is a vegan therefore to be referred to as a vegetable murderer?
I think not.
Just because a person is a vegan does not mean they want other people to starve to death, rather than be fed venison.
dc

[DarkTirade]

17. No, she should definitely NOT have bambi burgers.

Steaks are much better. :P

[rcrush]

19. I want to try some bambi burgers

Where can one get deer meet to try these days?

[EndersDame]

21. Eating meat after being a vegetarian will fuck with her stomach

I am a vegetarian as well but have respect for those who hunt or raise (in humane conditions) their own meat since it is better quality of life for the animal and more sustainable for the environment. I personally do not believe in eating meat but am not under any impressions that the whole planet will go veggie and it should be done responsibly

[hedgehog]

24. That's what she's afraid of. She's going to play it safe so she has an appetite for all the

Christmas cookies and candy.

[Jamastiene]

22. Offer her some and let her decide if she does or does not want to try it.

Seems fair enough. :shrug:

[bbernardini]

28. All I know is that "Bag of Meat" would be an awesome name for a band. nt

[Taitertots]

29. The hilariousness of the Western consumption bot complaining that raising meat is

Too much ecological damage. There are so many steps she could take that would actually make a difference, it is funny that she would pick something that requires no effort and makes an irrelevant difference.

[Chan790]

41. If you're complaining that vegetarianism achieves nothing in terms of reducing ecological damage...

you're just wrong.

Perhaps the best hope for change lies in consumers’ becoming aware of the true costs of industrial meat production. “When you look at environmental problems in the U.S.,” says Professor Eshel, “nearly all of them have their source in food production and in particular meat production. And factory farming is ‘optimal’ only as long as degrading waterways is free. If dumping this stuff becomes costly — even if it simply carries a non-zero price tag — the entire structure of food production will change dramatically."

Mark Bittman - Rethinking The Meat-Guzzler (New York Times) January 27, 2008.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/27/weekinreview/27bittman.html?_r=1&scp=3&sq=meat&st=nyt

Editorial Note: The resulting book which grew out of this article is even more damning. I won't ruin the surprises of it because it's a great read, but for a book that doesn't actually even advocate veganism, it does a great job of making environmentally-conscious non-vegans (myself included) feel like absolute parasitic shite. http://www.markbittman.com/books/food-matters

[La Lioness Priyanka]

30. LOL. bad mother!!!

:)

[tigereye]

32. I think there are other choices inbetween the ones you offer...

my sister has been a vegetarian for decades, when there is meat on the menu, she simply doesn't eat it.

[ThomThom]

33. maybe we can do birth control on the deer?

dart them, it might be just as satisfying as killing them

let the young person decide for herself

[oedura]

34. The number of people on the planet places too heavy a load on the Earth's ecosystem...

She needs to start eating people.

[eppur_se_muova]

37. These choices are not at all mutually exclusive.

And I think you know it.:evilgrin:

[brendan120678]

39. Venison Chili is a good choice, IMHO (nt)

[LynneSin]

40. As someone who comes from a family of farmers - they love deer hunters

My uncle raised crops for sale, just a small farm. But you get one deer trolloping thru a field of corn and that's alot of money he loses because it destroys the plants. So for him, he allows a few deer hunter the chance to hunt on his property, then he has the ability to see more of his crops make it to market. My uncle was never a big corporate farmer - he raised free-range chickens and produce.