Someday all of us will be dead for a long time, so do not hurry to die. Graves are boring places:

[struggle4progress]

except that they bring memory of times and people no longer before us, nothing is interesting about them. Our lives are somehow loaned to us temporarily, for better or worse -- and which of us really knows what is better or what is worse? Even a homeless beggar eating from trashcans can still enjoy the smell of the summer rain, which is a pleasure that the dead no longer seem to have

My cousin has just committed suicide. He was not yet fifty. I did not know him well. I last saw him at his home when I went to visit my dying aunt in New Jersey a few years back, and I knew he had some troubles but he seemed to me mature and generous then. When I spoke with him a year ago, he was in Alabama chaperoning a church youth group doing Katrina reconstruction work. And now some demonic despair has whispered him the worst of all possible lies, and he has made the unrecoverable mistake of believing that damnable lie

I will not hope that in this way he finds peace. No -- I will hope that his teenage daughter will recover from the bad news that her father apparently decided she was not enough of reason for him to continue living.
And I will hope instead against all hope that one day he will again have warm breath as I have now and will again find living flesh upon his bones as I have upon mine

[abq e streeter]

1. Thank you for your generosity of spirit in this sad time for you

I can never hear or read things like this too often. I too have the "demonic despair" come over me too often, and your eloquent words have reminded me how important it is to not believe the "damnable lie". Thank you again; I will bookmark this and try to have the presence of mind to come back to it in moments of weakness. One last time again, thank you...

[struggle4progress]

3. Why not stick around a while and see what happens next?

[abq e streeter]

12. I plan to---you reminded me of the pain that suicide causes others that one leaves behind

I'll keep fighting, and if I can't think of any other reason to go on , caring about those I would hurt will be enough....and you know what? I also won't give Limbaugh,O'Reilly et al the satisfaction of having one less liberal to try to bully, threaten and intimidate.I'm gonna stick around just to spite those SOB's.

[supernova]

13. Sounds like a great plan

:hug: to you, abq e streeter.

[zonkers]

2. Yes. Everyday is a gift. I just read about the last days of author David Foster Wallace, a guy who

had everything to live for but lost a battle to depression and hung himself. Everyone saw it coming especially him but all were powerless to stop it.

[struggle4progress]

19. Yes. Every day is a gift, though on some days one wishes the gift could be quietly exchanged

for something more to one's taste

[Tangerine LaBamba]

4. The old saw is that suicide

is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

But that's an unfair gloss, and it's a bit too pat.

No one knows another's heart, and no one knows what kind of pain another person is experiencing. If he hurt so badly he only saw death as the solution, no one can argue with that. There are those who will claim that he was depressed - well, of course he was - and that, with the proper intervention, he would be alive today.

They're talking out their asses.

A person's life is his to do with as he pleases. Yes, that he did this with a teenage daughter in his life makes it much, much worse, and it makes him look like the most selfish person imaginable. But, from another angle, it underscores and emphasizes how very bad his pain was. That he had to kill himself to find peace tells you everything you need to know about how he was suffering.

Not one of us is qualified to judge what another person does to ease his pain. Do not judge him for what he did. Your comment about his "apparently decid(ing) she was not enough of reason for him to continue living" is an terrible thing to say - you said you didn't know him well, so how can you possibly know what it took for him "to continue living"?

Don't be mean. It doesn't do anyone any good, and it simply takes away from your being a good and compassionate human being.

It is a terrible, terrible thing for his daughter. I hope she is surrounded by good and loving people who can help her through this minefield that has suddenly become her life. She is in peril, and I hope her loved ones understand that; I hope she's getting professional help now, and will continue to do so. She's just entered a very high-risk category - kids whose parents commit suicide are more likely to do the same, the mystery of it having been stripped away for them, erasing whatever fear death might once have held.

Or they convince themselves that doing what the suicide did will bring them closer to him.

Compassion is hard at a time like this, but a time like this is when it's most needed. You may never understand why your cousin did what he did, since you didn't know him very well, but you are not equipped to decide what he should have done with his life. I take it from your last line that you believe in a kind of Rapture, or a life after death, a corporeal life where bodies will be restored and people will again be alive. That's a nice belief, and I hope for your sake that it happens.

But, in the meantime, try to be a generous Christian, and remember "Judge not lest ye be judged."

If you're in any position to help his teenage daughter - even though I assume you don't know her at all - do it, even if it's just writing her a letter, letting her know that a family member is thinking of her and wishing her well, offering her whatever you can.

He's beyond our reach now, and we can only hope that his pain has ended.......................................

[struggle4progress]

6. I have no confidence that I can speak to the dead, nor do I spend much time worrying

that my opinions, one way or another, would concern them much, even if they heard me. I usually owe little duty to the dead. But why should I not speak to the living? I cannot force any to listen to me who do not want to listen. Yet since a time will come when I myself have no voice, why should I not use it while I can?

You say a person's life is his to do with as he pleases. That is not a theory I will advance in general. In what sense does a person really own his or her own life? That life sprang miraculously from the mud of the earth; a thousand generations and more preceded it and brought it forth; even its pains and disappointments can become poetry

Abstractly, I suppose I might concede that there are limited circumstances under which a person might make an ethical decision not to continue living, and I think two elderly aunts of mine made such decisions. One, in her eighties, had pancreatic cancer that resisted all treatment and thus decided to stop eating: she did not have long to live in any case and grew tired of the effort associated with pointless treatment. The other, in her nineties, was nearly blind and deaf and badly crippled by arthritis, but found cause to live until a stroke destroyed most of the remaining control she had over her body; in telephone conversations, she repeatedly indicated to me that she would overdose her medication if she were able, and the circumstances of her death suggested to me that sympathetic medical personnel found a way to make this possible for her to do. In those cases, I knew well in advance their days were close to ending, and while I was sorry to see them go, I did not wish I could walk back a few days earlier and intervene. The death of my cousin is a different story: I should have been unhappy with my cousin's ex-wife, had she murdered him -- why should I not be similarly unhappy that he has murdered himself?

[Tangerine LaBamba]

7. I got no indication that you were "unhappy"

with what your cousin did. I did, however, get a strong sense that you disapproved. Your post exhibited no positive feelings for him, just that you didn't know him very well.

Your line about bodies being pressed against each other, the last line in your post. If that wasn't about resurrection and life after death, well, then, what was it about? What are you expecting from the dead, exactly? It sounded like the kind of "life after death" theme that permeates Christianity.

Otherwise, what do you wish for your cousin?

Nowhere did I suggest you not use your voice. That's kind of silly.

If you don't believe that you own your life, I'm curious - who do you think owns it?

What I wrote was that no one knows another's pain, and your comment about your cousin not loving his daughter enough to keep living for her was a judgment so cruel and so cutting - especially about someone you admitted you didn't know very well - it begged to be answered.

I hope for you that pain never overtakes you, and that your life will be smooth and happy. In the meantime, I hope you can enlarge your range and try to put yourself in the shoes of another, someone less fortunate, who perhaps doesn't have your internal resources, someone who has been hit with more in life than he can handle, someone who is suffering without any surcease, someone who doesn't know how to make it stop except to make his life stop.

And it's interesting that you didn't address anything about helping his teenage daughter. Your concern for her does, I hope, extend further than just mentioning her on a message board, her existence being a vehicle upon which you could transport your disapproval of what your cousin did.

That girl is now learning a terrible, terrible lesson: that suicide kills the actor quickly and the survivors slowly....................

[struggle4progress]

15. Should I approve had he cut off his hand for no good reason or strangled his daughter?

Why then should I approve that he has cut off his own breath? If he had merely cut off his own hand, someone might still sit with him to say "Oh! Why have you done this?" But now any attempt to converse with him must be one-sided, without listener or answer

Had he moved away without forwarding address, his friends and neighbors could wonder where he had gone, and why, and could still hope one day to receive a postcard from him with an Italian stamp, or to get a phone call from a common friend telling how she had briefly caught sight of him in a crowded New York subway and how when she called out his name he turned and smiled and waved to her on the platform as his train pulled away. But today my hopes for him must be even less likely than those

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[struggle4progress]

21. We saw each other nearly every week as children. I remember him in diapers. I saw him

now and then every few years afterwards. We sometimes spent a week with him family when we were in the area. I was at his wedding. I saw him when several times over several years when I went to visit his father who was dying of cancer. I teased his daughter as he drove me to the airport after his father's funeral a decade ago when she was four: I threatened to glue stamps to her forehead and drop her in a mailbox so she could visit me: she stared hard at me and finally decided that I was funny. I saw him when I visited his widowed mother several times. I helped in minor ways with his mother's funeral. I liked him better as he grew older. I did not know him well. I did not know him well enough for him to call me and say he was having trouble and needed someone to come drink a beer with him and talk. I suppose that in a few days I will find out about the funeral details and that I will go there to meet again those he leaves behind. I will not feel like dancing on his grave

[supernova]

10. Your lack of empathy and manners is appalling

You say "don't be mean." Yet you come into a thread posted as solace, then proceed to lecture the OP about how they aren't responding appropriately to a family tragedy.

Don't you get it? There is no right or wrong way to respond to something like this. Feelings are what they are. Believe me, he's not insulting his cousin at this point. He is rightly choosing to focus his positive thoughts on the poor man's daughter.

The only way a person could post something like you did is if it pricked something in your own life.

It does not matter that S4P and his cousin didn't spend much time together. I have a cousin in Dallas/Ft Worth. We are only two years apart in age. I love her dearly and these days, it's sometimes five years or more between visits. Yet, I think of her often. She's in my heart as much as my sister. I'd be just as devastated if something happened to her, whether by her own hand or not.

I know S4P offline. I've known him almost as long as I've been at DU. He is a good man. He is extraordinarily intelligent, kind, passionate, and always willing to share whatever he has.

[havocmom]

24. and right now, he is angry. Anger is a part of grieving. It comes before acceptance, if one is lucky

For many, acceptance never comes. Tangerine was making the point that not being harsh and judging that which the OP clearly admits he does not know much about might be a better tactic than raging at the deceased. It was not a lack of manners. It was more the holding up of a light, in hopes someone might better see the path ahead and avoid a terrible fall.

[crim son]

5. I'm so very sorry.

Having struggled with clinical depression and suicidal impulses since I was a teenager, I know that your cousin would not have done what he did, leaving a daughter and the rest of his family in despair, were he not completely convinced he had no choice.

I very much love your image, that one day he will again have warm breath, and again find living flesh upon his bones. I'll add this: that in his mind and heart, he has peace. He cannot be blamed for his actions any more than a cancer patient can be blamed for his/her cancer. Sending vibes, struggle4progress. I'm sorry for your loss and the feelings it elicits.

[struggle4progress]

17. Yes, one does not know. Once, the husband of a good friend of mine committed suicide

suddenly and without prior indications: autopsy revealed a brain tumor

Since I myself find solace in living voices, I cannot imagine that one can find peace by attempting to escape from such voices entirely, but of course my cousin cannot now care what I think or whether I blame him

[Richardo]

8. What an eloquent, moving post.

It's one of the best I've ever read.

:hug: to you and your extended family, and peace and strength as well.

[supernova]

9. Oh my, I'm so sorry,

This is very sad news indeed.

You're thoughts about being dead are straight on. It's nothing we should be wishing to hurry upon us. That young woman will have a lot of pain for a very long time. But if the rest of your family is very much like you, I know you will help her get through it.

:hug:

I miss you all. Let's get together soon.

[struggle4progress]

32. Thanks, supe.

I hope everything is going well for you. And we should try to have another get-together soon

[Tuesday Afternoon]

11. I am sorry to hear of the loss to your family. Special hugs for

the teenage daughter.

[struggle4progress]

23. Yes. Now I must try to decide what I will say to her, to his sister, to his sister's

daughters, to his father's sister, to his mother's cousins ...

[Moondog]

14. Please accept my sympathies.

[NNadir]

16. Condolences to your family.

He must have been in a lot of pain.

[struggle4progress]

33. He was in the despair that Kiekegaard calls "the sickness unto death"

[SidneyCarton]

18. My deepest sympathies.

I am sorry for your loss S4P, sorry for your friend's family, who will feel it deeply, and sorry for the poor soul who took his life, I cannot imagine the mental torment that must have tortured his soul to drive him to this.

I will hope that he eventually finds peace, the peace that comes from understanding. But I will also hope that his loved ones, particularly his daughter are granted solace and comfort in these awful days. May she know that this was not anything that she did, and that her father loved her, but was sick, and got lost.

Peace to you.

(Edited to remove trite and unhelpful sentiments, with regrets)

[mnhtnbb]

22. I am so sorry to hear this. His despair must have been a terrible thing.

Now the pain belongs to his family--what an awful burden.

Suicide is so very, very difficult to understand.

:hug:

[rockymountaindem]

25. I'm very sorry to hear that.

I know how much that particular path hurts :hug:

[Xipe Totec]

26. My father did not commit suicide

Though, if he had half a chance, he would have.

My father died in agony, wracked with cancer.

In his last moments of agony he begged his doctor for a gun, so he could blow his brains out.

My mother was there to witness the end of his life.

He was not yet fifty.

[struggle4progress]

31. I am sorry about your father's suffering

[havocmom]

27. Sometimes I wonder if those who are so hardened against suicides have just been very lucky

and not met more pain than they, themselves, can endure.

There is a point for everyone. Not everyone has had to meet it.

Personally, I figure those who haven't had to face some pain so horrible that death seems the better choice are damned lucky and perhaps should not push that luck by rendering harsh judgments on that which they are blessedly ignorant of.

[Bunny]

28. Thanks for saying this. It's very easy to judge, much harder to understand the level of pain.

It truly is blessed ignorance, isn't it?

[struggle4progress]

29. If I am sorry to see forests torn down for strip malls or mountaintops levelled for coal,

why should I not be saddened by the sudden waste of my cousin's life?

[havocmom]

34. Sad is fine

judgmental, not so much

[struggle4progress]

35. I doubt whether the dead care much if I think good or ill of them: it is possible to offend

the living by the way one remembers the dead they loved, but there seems little point in worrying about offense to the dead themselves

Any plea to be "non-judgmental" concerns our duties to those who are still alive, that we should attempt to understand their thought and intent in light of their imperfection and finitude, as we would hope they understand ours: it cannot meaningfully be a claim that nothing is better or nothing worse than anything else

Had I come upon him trying to feed to daughter to a tiger, I should have thought This is not a good thing and tried to stop it, without qualms whether that were "judgmental." And had I found him preparing to burn himself alive or preparing to shoot himself, I should have similarly thought No, this is not a good thing and tried to take away his matches or bullets, without wondering at length whether it were "judgmental." The fact that he has succeeded in extinguishing himself does not make me suddenly indifferent to the outcome: I recognize that it is not a good thing that has happened

[La Lioness Priyanka]

30. there is an amount of pain, in which one cant think that rationally.

i hope you never have to experience it. in fact i hope most people dont. however, for those who have, i have my sympathies.