daughter bringing sugar-free/vegan/chocolate hating best friend camping in Glacier

[kid a]

And we LOVE roasting marshmallows, turkey dogs and s'mores in the campfire.

Any alternative campfire treat recommendations for our guest??

[Madrone]

1. ...

:rofl:

Damn. Vegan AND sugar-free - you've got your hands full. The sugar-free is WAY worse than vegan. No suggestions, just wishes of good luck!

[Startup]

2. Just tell her it's sugar free.... It will be our little secret... It's not like a nut allergy

Come to think of it that can work for naive vegans as well... No that not bacon.... its um ... soy.

[LeftyMom]

16. That's a really bad idea.

First of all because interfering with somebody's ethical or health decisions is assholish.

Second, because there may be a medical issue involved. For example, I'm vegan. I also have a dairy allergy. I don't tend to explain to people that no, there really can't be any dairy in my food because the whole "vegan" thing covers that, you know? So if some dickhole decides it's cute to say, substitute dairy cheese for soy on my pizza (not that I wouldn't be able to tell the difference, but assuming I had a cold or something and couldn't smell that ripe socks and old vomit dairy smell from 10' off) I'd get really fucking sick. Even if there isn't a complicating health issue, if somebody chooses not to partake of the products of animal torture and death, feeding them to them as some kind of prank is pretty fucked up.

edit: And maybe the kid is diabetic? Slipping her something "sugar free" that isn't in a remote area could well merit a ride in the medivac chopper, or worse...

[Startup]

17. I (Hopefully) clearly have my tongue in cheek.

And that fact she can apparently eat "Natural" fruit indicates this is not a allergy situation in any case.

I also tellingly used the word naive. Obviously a mature vegan can tell the difference between bacon and a soy substitute.

So once again my tone was vegan tongue in cheek.

[Gormy Cuss]

26. Cheese smells that bad to you?

I wonder if it's a biological response tied to your dairy allergy.

BTW, I agree with you about the ethical/health concerns of lying to the kid about the food presented. If the hosts can't accommodate the person's dietary restrictions then they should make that clear before the trip. That way either the person can pack her own food or decline the invitation.


to the OP: as a substitute for roasting marshmallows, cut firm peaches or nectarines are good grilled and could be skewered on the end of a stick. They'd take a little longer to roast.

[Kali]

3. fruit?

apricots or pineapple chunks are good charred, foil wrapped apples

god why do people do this to their children? just turns them into poodles when they get out of sight.

my son had a friend like that - he would come to our house and put like a CUP of sugar into a glass of iced tea.

[kid a]

7. ooo....good idea

[Startup]

9. I don't think you can eat fruit if your sugar free. nt

[kid a]

11. i t hink she can eat natural sugars...just nothing processed

[Demoiselle]

49. What, exactly is a NATURAL sugar?

Isn't cane sugar natural? I mean, it comes from a natural plant called sugar cane. What is it, anyway, about "processing" that white sugar that becomes unnatural. Isn't the processing merely a matter of boiling off the extraneous fibers, etc., the brown stuff that is present in molasses. How do they process out that coloring, anyway?
Are those relatively rare red, brown and black salts somehow more natural than "white" salt? I've always thought their colors came from the presence of other minerals.

[yellowdogintexas]

72. the deal with fruit is that it is still in its original form with all the fiber

intact. System handles it better.

[flvegan]

18. Why do people do what specifically to their children?

[Obama2012]

24. Obviously, if they don't keep them on a diet of good old-fashioned crap, they're abusing them

[Kali]

37. no just normal food

and the occasional fun treats when the situation is appropriate

(not talking about medical issues, just a decent childhood)

I wouldn't go as far as using the word abuse, but forcing kids to be completely outside of normal for no reason other than personal choice, and then expecting everybody else to accommodate that is boorish. And a little mean to the kid. Not abuse, but teaches more than they think it does.

[Obama2012]

47. For all we know, the kid can't have sugar for medical reasons, family is vegan for ethical ones

or they just don't plain like chocolate.

Nothing wrong with any of those situations. I wouldn't consider raising a kid vegan to be "completely outside of normal." I think it's perfectly normal. The kid might be ADD, and they're treating it via diet, instead of with drugs. We don't know.

[flvegan]

51. Oh, come on.

Not eating what's "normal" for our culture, godfuckingforbid. Our culture of consumption, obesity, diabetes, heart disease, cancer and statins 7 ways from Sunday to control our out-of-control cholesterol. A culture of nutritional ineptness rocks, and nobody should have any ideas about differing from that.

Fuck health, eat shit and be "normal" In a few decades, when wars are fought over water, "normal" will be very different than it is now.

[Kali]

58. so kids should never get to try junk food or have sugar for the occasional treat?

I do agree a lot of what has become "normal" in our culture is pretty awful. Even my omnivorous mostly prepared fresh at home, rare junk food, diet has become less normal. We can agree on that. On the other hand never allowing it at all is too puritan for my tastes and often creates unintended problems, as I mentioned.

Consumerism isn't limited to eating too much garbage. I have heard/read several comments of "I'm and overweight vegan" including something from you in regards to treats in the mail recently. Nor is it limited just to food. Plenty of people buying up all kind of resource intensive garbage all over the place. Good luck convincing everybody to become monks and give up their toys.

[flvegan]

63. How far are you going to move those goalposts?

[Kali]

65. what are you talking about?

I fucking agreed with you.

[Shell Beau]

61. The norm in this country has made us all fat.

My state especially.

[Kali]

57. did you miss what I put in parentheses?

if vegan was "perfectly normal" it would by definition be the practice of a large portion if not the majority of the population. It is not. Hence the need to even ask, or have seperate DU forums for the subject.


You are right - we don't know in this case why the child is under this regime. My comment was aimed at the people who chose it for reasons other than medical ones. My example was of a family that followed various woo fads, not just dietary ones. The kid had no medical reason to avoid sugar. Although he may eventually if he doesn't get over his poodle effect binging.

[Obama2012]

66. It's not abnormal

It's my understanding that there are special forums on DU so people can have discussion without harassment. But, I might have misunderstood the purpose.

And, even if it's not medical, what's the big deal? You act like being vegan is a horrible thing to do to a kid. There's all sorts of stuff out there for vegan kids to eat. I don't eat s'mores, because I'm not into sweet foods. For all you know, the kid doesn't like sugary stuff.

[Kali]

69. not abnormal in the vernacular sense, but at the edge of normal, certainly

Not many on the planet are vegan. Our evolutionary background has been omnivorous for a LLOONNGGG time. Just the comments by the vegans on this thread acknowlege it isn't mainstream.

I don't think raising a kid vegan is a horrible thing to do (unless they are malnourished), but I do think forcing (or trying to) a kid to adhere as strictly to such a diet in social settings as at home is a little mean - UNLESS the kid has chosen to do so. And hey, if you have raised the child "right" and the diet is so great, why would the kid even want to try other things?

This isn't even taking into account the simple courtesy issues of when one is a guest somewhere.

Again, not talking about this kid specifically (in reply to your comment about sweets) just the general situation.

[Obama2012]

76. Personally, I think if somebody has a guest, they should accomodate the guest

It's not hard to feed a vegan.

I'm not vegan, but I've had friends who have been vegan since birth, and they don't feel like they missed out. Just like my kosher friends don't feel like they've missed out on eating pigs or shellfish.

[Kali]

78. we certainly agree on that.

I do that too. Nevertheless if it were me with the "odd" needs/preferences I would try to be helpful to my host. It plays both ways.

[BarenakedLady]

28. That's what I was wondering

:shrug:

[Kali]

38. ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=8956479&mesg_id=8957133

[Kali]

35. see below

reply to passing fair


oh and like you don't already know:eyes:

[noamnety]

4. a great treat for campfires

is small tart apples - roast them in the flames.

The college I went to had an umkempt apple orchard and we loved to have bonfires and roast apples. If I have a grill going, I still sometimes grill whole apples on it (not even cored or anything). You guys might even find out you prefer it to marshmallows - it's like apple pie on a stick.

[yewberry]

5. Sure.

Skewer some marinated tofu with mushrooms, zucchini, red peppers, summer squash, whatever you have. Easy. You could bake some potatoes in foil if you want. Corn on the cob. (Or there's always vegan hot dogs.)

For dessert, you could do grilled peaches. Or, stick with the skewer theme, and cut apples into bite-size pieces, roast over the fire, and sprinkle with apple pie spice or cinnamon.

[kid a]

8. yum. we'll try that, peaces & cinnamon

[LittleClarkie]

6. What about pudgy pies

is that what they call them? You get the cast iron thing where you put two pieces of bread in it, some jam in the middle, put it together and cook it in the fire. I think. Never did it myself, only heard about them and that they're good.

[elleng]

10. Enjoy Glacier!

(watch out for the bears!!!)

[kid a]

12. thanks! gonna be there for a week.

[elleng]

14. We were there for a few days; rode train thru from Chicago.

If you happen to do the same, BE SURE YOUR LUGGAGE DISEMBARKS WHEN YOU DO!

[LeftyMom]

13. I'd need more information on what she means by "sugar free"

If that means "no added sugar but naturally occurring sugars are okay" then fruit-based sweets would be fine, and she can have pretty much any vegan entree or side. Ask in the veg/vegan/ar group for more ideas, I believe there are some old threads about camping or barbecue foods that might help.

If that means "I avoid processed sugars because I'm vegan and I don't trust you not to know which are appropriate for vegans and which are filtered with bone char" then I can point you to some information explaining different sugars and which are okay. Oh, and vegan smore stuff (that'll all be somewhat sugary, but if the issue is avoidance of non vegan sugars it'll all be totally acceptable) is not terribly difficult to find. If that's the issue I can point you to web stores that will sell every possible thing she might need if you don't have a decent health food shop in the area (ask her, she knows where to get vegan food locally.)

If it means that she avoids sugar because of a health concern or something, that's another story and she's probably your best source of information on what she can/can't eat.

Either way, she's probably expecting to bring most/all of her own food, because as a vegan, let alone one with other complications (trust me, I'm a vegan with extensive food allergies, I know how this goes) you really can't expect most non-vegans to know what the hell to feed you. You shouldn't have any trouble putting your heads together and figuring out what to bring for her.

[flvegan]

15. Agreed on the more info front.

"sugar free" can mean a number of things to a vegan, usually based on perception.

[RandomThoughts]

19. Call her mom and ask her.

It not only gives you a chance to get to know her, it also would allow you to be accurate in picking a snack she would like.

Just an idea. Unless they are older daughters... I am assuming they are children.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

20. How old is the kid?

If she's old enough, ask her.

And best of luck to you. I can't wait to hear how this turns out.......

:hi:

[ThomCat]

21. Roasting fruit in a fire can be awesome!

Especially peaches and apples. :9

Or, bring some raw peanuts, cashews, chestnuts, etc. and enjoy the flavor of real fresh roasted. :)

You need to come prepared with something long-handled to roast your fruit or nuts in. But it's worth it.

[Fleshdancer]

22. please don't beat up on the chocolate hater!

obviously you won't, but as a chocolate hater myself, the whole "HOW CAN YOU HATE CHOCOLATE??!!?" thing gets very old very fast. My own mother is still somewhat traumatized by my odd taste buds.

Go with roasted peaches(YUM!) and kabobs that substitute portobello mushrooms for meat. Pre-made quinoa or couscous salads are always good too, but the best thing you can do is simply ask her.

[Orsino]

23. Morningstar Farms' veggie dogs.

I can't tell 'em from the real thing. They are awesome...but they also seem to be out of stock, mysteriously. Hmm.

[Abies]

29. Those hot dogs are wonderful.

No wonder I can't find them anywhere anymore. I figured people just snatched them up before we did.

[hippywife]

62. Most of their products

do have sugar and aren't specifically vegan unless they say vegan on the package. That's true of most meat analogs.

:hi:

[whistler162]

25. have her watch Survivorman and let her forgage for

herself!

[datasuspect]

27. twigs, berries, and a side order of no fun

[Tuesday Afternoon]

30. perhaps, substitute carob for chocolate...and call the Mom.

Have fun!

[Blue Diadem]

31. I agree with talking to the parent. We had the opposite situation once

with a friend of my sons who didn't like ordinary food. It had nothing to do with allergies or beliefs, he only liked sugary sweet things, no veggies, no meats, no fruits. His Mom said he ate cereal all the time so she sent a paper grocery bag full of sweetened cereals and various sugary snacks and that's all that boy ate the entire weekend.

[PassingFair]

32. Someone with strict dietary requirements should bring their own food in this situation.

If the friend still lives at home, her parents
should pack what she can eat.

If she's a teen who chooses what she eats, she
can pack and bring her own.

Really.

My daughter is a vegan, and I certainly don't
expect other people to run around and try to
accommodate her. Most people don't understand
what vegans eat anyway, its not THEIR problem.

And I don't say that in a snotty way.

[Kali]

34. thanks!

:thumbsup:

I'm more than happy to meet people's needs or choices, but it's really nice to have them meet half way!

No matter what the issue is, if you are way outside of "norm", you either need to help your host out (at the very least by asking if they are able to accommodate the situation) or take care of yourself. If you need a special pillow to sleep, do you demand your host provide it or do you just bring your own? I won't even go into the pleasure of actually being flexible and just making do on the occasions one is a guest somewhere. God the stories I could tell of traveling to other countries where people regularly go hungry and listening to these picky ass eaters who are only doing it for attention.

As for kids, especially the younger ones - yes if they really have medical needs that is fine. And if it is truly THEIR choice (not liking chocolate, vegatables, veganism, or whatever) then they need to learn to deal with the rest of the world on their own. But forcing them to be vegans and then be expected to deal with normality in social situations is rather cruel in my opinion and may even cause a behavioral backlash I call the poodle effect* - in my example yesterday, here was a young teen that had been sugar restricted against his will and for no real reason - he was old enough to be making these choices himself and I was never asked to supervise his food and beverage intake - but he would drain the whole sugar dispenser in two glasses of tea.





*poodle effect - when overprotected Foo-Foo gets out the door and goes berserk with unaccustomed freedom, quickly getting run over in traffic. Whereas the street-savy mutt knows how to take care of himself out there. Happens to a lot of kids when they go off to college, especially with alcohol.

[BarenakedLady]

41. My kids were vegetarians since conception

All parents "force" their children to adhere to their lifestyles whether it is what food is put on the table, what church they attend, or what clothes they wear from the very beginning of their lives. Once they are old enough to make their own decisions that is another story.

Two out of my three (12, 9, 6) are vegetarians by choice now. My son eats meat when we go out. I don't have meat at home. He doesn't go meat crazy though. I just never made it a big deal.

I grew up without many sweets. I so wanted Twinkies in my lunch like the other kids, but my mom never bought that crap. It wasn't forbidden, she just wouldn't buy it. I actually ended up not having a sweet tooth. I finally ate the Twinkies and found it wasn't all it was cracked up to be.

:shrug:

[Kali]

42. not sure what your shrug smiley means

I hope I was clear about extremes outside of normal? Yes we all force our kids to live certain ways, my kids were stuck in the boonies and never had much of the same stuff other kids had. But I never told them they couldn't watch teevee or play video games when they visited their friends. I just wasn't going to buy them. Hell they saved and bought the damn things themselves. Same goes for soda's and other crap like that I very rarely buy. Buy it yourself - takes a bit of the desire for it away heh heh.

Never told mine to demand sugar when he visited his friend who wasn't allowed to have it.

You point about trying the twinkie is sort of what I meant - it then became your choice/taste to not really care for them. But what if you liked them a lot? Might have been sneaking them. Your mom probably didn't make a big deal about it. She just didn't provide them to you. I bet she never forbade you from ever tasting one?

[BarenakedLady]

43. I think we are on the same page

Making things forbidden to children old enough to make decisions on their own, makes the whatever the "forbidden" thing more desirable.

I was just taking issue with the idea of raising children as vegetarian/vegan as "forcing" them. My point is that I didn't "force" them not to eat meat any more than my neighbor "forces" her children to be omnivorous. That's just the way my household runs. No meat is served or provided.

But what is "the norm" exactly and what determines how far out of it one is?

My shrug smilie was that I didn't end up becoming a sugar fiend even though I grew up not having access to it. Different people respond differently. You just never know. My brother did/does have a sweet tooth.

[Kali]

46. what is normal?

like porn or art, I think I know it when I see it:rofl:

it can be hard to define, and is subject to change, obviously. Easier to identify the extremes.

Maybe the difference is in using parental guidance rather than strict demands/expectations (at least for these sorts of choices).

Personally I would consider vegan closer to "forcing" than just vegetarian, especially in our culture, but even that is subject to locality and degree of parental "aggression". Does the family exist in total isolation because of WHATEVER it is that makes them different or do they have overlap of like-minded community? Is there flexibility and choice involved? (in non-lifethreatening situations)

[datasuspect]

54. that's why i let my kids smoke

[Xithras]

45. I was about to say the same thing.

I have a few friends and family who subscribe to various dietary philosophies, and we all camp a lot. I always make it clear that people unintersted in "traditional camp food" should bring their own.

I've never had anyone get upset at the request. My experience is that most vegans are used to it. The only thing I typically provide is a "meal list" if we'll be hiking, so they can plan their food purchases accordingly (if six meals will be trailside without heat or water, and eight will be at a campfire, that impacts your purchase choices pretty heavily). I make sure they know how many, and what sort, of meals they should bring along. The actual contents of those meals are up to them.

[demmiblue]

71. The OP never said that the friend would not bring her own food

I am guessing that, with those restrictions, she will bring things that she can eat.

The OP wanted to know what she/he could provide as a special camping treat. This is not so out of the ordinary... there is nothing wrong with wanting to provide a treat that all can share. Most moms I know would go out of their way to include everyone, regardless of the restrictions. Meals... that may be a different story (due to what you said about understanding veg/vegan diets)!

[AngryAmish]

33. that is one weird kid

[Zomby Woof]

55. Who defines "weird"?

Our conformist culture has done a number on you. You're condemning children with different tastes/dietary needs from yours as "weird". Good job! :thumbsup:

[AngryAmish]

59. I do.

See, I did it above.

[Zomby Woof]

64. You did a piss-poor job of it

[gbate]

73. It is weird.

2. Of a strikingly odd or unusual character; strange

Ok, it's "different". How is calling her weird "condemning?"

[Zomby Woof]

75. There was condescension behind that post

"Weird" is pejorative in that context. Based on that poster's past history, too.

I have seen enough vegan/vegetarian-bashing on DU to recognize it.

And even stripping down the word to its dictionary definition, that STILL doesn't make that child "strikingly odd" just because they don't eat sugar or chocolate. Rare, maybe, but "odd"?

For the record, I am an omnivore - but also 100% supportive of individual dietary choices, whether based on health, ethics, or both.

[gbate]

80. Not familiar with their past posts, but I suppose you have a point.

Oh, I'm completely Ok with food choices, but it is rare for a child to choose not to eat meat, sugar and chocolate.

[mdmc]

36. as someone who loves sugar but had to go vegan

all those things ya love can be reproduced in soy.

they even have vegan chocolate.

I would have her bring her own food. Make sure she knows that you will have plenty of meat and sugar.

[Demoiselle]

50. How is sugar an anti-vegan commodity?

Sugar comes from plants, not animals.
(Again, just asking.)

[flvegan]

68. Cane sugar, as opposed to beet sugar

may well be refined using bone char, an animal product.

That said, it's not ALL sugar that may not be vegan-friendly.

[mdmc]

79. I had to give up refined sugar due to my RA

my MD suggested that I get off caffeine and sugar. I've gone vegan / vegetarian..

[hippywife]

52. Since you've asked twice and no one has answered

I refer you back to leftymom's post which explains it, especially your question in your other post about the color:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=8956479&mesg_id=8956674

:hi:

[surrealAmerican]

39. There are a number of "veggie dogs" on the market.

It's great that you want to make an effort to accommodate this kid, but you really do need to consult either her (if she's old enough) or her parent for "treat" foods.

[kid a]

40. we're actually making a market run with her today...THANKS for all the GREAT IDEAS!!!

[Quantess]

56. I love meatless meat

It's better than the real thing.

Some of them aren't completely vegan, though.

[Captain Hilts]

44. Tell them to bring what they like. nt

[Fire Walk With Me]

48. This sounds like a teaser for a television reality show!

Hope it works out; sorry, nothing to offer beyond that. :hug:

[hippywife]

53. I know people are saying to have her bring her own food

and a bunch of other stuff, but I guess my response would be to try to accommodate her food preferences no matter why they are her food preferences. As a host, I usually feel not only the responsibility but the desire to do so. But that's how I roll. LOL

It isn't all that difficult. If you want to keep it simple, there's always just fruit and veggies. There are tons of vegan options for meat analogs, too, but make sure they are vegan friendly. Some do have egg whites in them which would make them a no-no. Honey is also a no-no with some vegans, you'd have to ask her if it's okay or not to bring honey for her to use in place of sugar.

Bottom line, talk to her and just ask her what she would like to eat, or if she's very young, ask her mother as others have suggested.

And really, don't sweat it too much, have a good time. :hi:

[Kali]

60. ...

:thumbsup: communication - it's what's for dinner!

[havocmom]

67. Just keep whatever snacks you take away from where you sleep

and know this: grizzly bears move MUCH faster than you can imagine.

Your guest may be on to something. NO tell-tale odors of yummy bear treats is a good plan.

[Nevernose]

70. Bananas, split down the middle, w/ maple syrup and walnuts.

Put each banana in tin foil and roast for a couple of minutes. We usually go camping w/ my best friend from childhood and his family, and his militant organic/raw vegan sister comes once a year (I've known her since childhood, too, so I have to put up with her :)). On those trips, we ditch the smores and do the banana thing. It's excellent, truly, and about as sugary as you can get. If you can find an acceptable chocolate, it's good with that, too.

Of course, if she doesn't agree, I threaten to tell her teenage kids that her mother taught me how to make a bong out of an apple in the eleventh grade, so it might just be the blackmail...

[greendog]

74. Flathead Cherries are in season for the next couple weeks...

...and are selling for a buck a pound. You can buy them from growers around Flathead Lake or at any of the grocery stores west of the park. They're wonderful.

Enjoy Glacier. Maybe I'll see you on the trails. :)

[theNotoriousP.I.G.]

77. Have you ever answered how old this friend is?

I skimmed the thread and never saw an answer to how old this friend is. If she's an older adolescent, can't she just bring her own food and you won't have to bother with it? If she's younger, can't her parents provide her with the food that is appropriate for her needs?

Personally, if I were the host, I would provide an array of basics that might meet her needs but let it be known to the parents (or the kid if she is old enough)that any special food items she needs she needs to bring with her.