12 Steppers. What do you say about legalizing pot?

[graywarrior]

[Critters2]

1. I can see how it may cause problems for some,

but many of those are getting it now. Those with issues will need to practice the same kind of discipline that other addicts practice now, i.e., getting to meetings regularly.

I see advantages to legalization, though. Taxing it will be better for the economy, and an open, legal market is always better than the violence and other criminal behavior that follows any black market. And there are safety advantages to regulated, legal pot.

So, overall, I'm for it.

[datasuspect]

2. lots of the "real alcoholics" (fundamentalist 12 steppers) i was involved with

thought pot was no problem since it wasn't alcohol. and they were there for alcohol.

[no name no slogan]

18. 12 step =/= Alcoholics Anonymous

Many 12-steppers are addicted to drugs (Narcotics Anonymous), gambling, sex, or other destructive behavior.

BTW, what do you mean by "fundamentalist 12 steppers"? AFAIK, AA is not a religion.

[datasuspect]

23. fundamentalism isn't restricted solely to religion

and AA is bound by the dogma contained in the Big Book. that is, if we are talking about the real alcoholics described in the first part of the Big Book.

[Deep13]

24. It's all based on AA and how is a program that relies on divine intervention...

...not a religion? Yes, yes, it's god as one understands him. Well, I understand he doesn't exist. Anyway, these alternative understandings of god do not have the power to restore one to sanity. That idea is beased on the Christian god.

[no name no slogan]

26. Oh wait, you're a 12-step hater

In that case, reasoned discussion of how 12-step programs aren't divine intervention will be lost on you, so nevermind.

[Deep13]

27. ad hominim argument

I take it you resort to this illogical argument because your assumptions are indefensible.

It doesn't matter what my subjective view is. Only the facts matter. Those can be ascertained by reading the 12 Steps which include about a half-dozen references to god including the need to rely on a power greater than oneself that can restore a person to sanity. And if that doesn't mean god, why is it called god? Plus, the accompanying "big book" reveals its evangelical origin pretty clearly. If divine intervention is not its basis, what is? It offers no other theoretic explanation of how it is supposed to work. AA has never been clinically tested, subjected to peer review or been updated based on new medical discoveries the way every other modern treatment for anything has been.

[no name no slogan]

28. Don't bother, I remember your spiel from another thread

You don't care what I say, so why should I care what you say?

[Deep13]

35. I will be happy to consider any evidence that is available.

I really do not want to believe that the "treatment" in most wide use in America today to the extent that it has been adopted by the courts and by legitimate mental health practitioners is nothing more than a cultish fraud. I do not want to believe that, but with the evidence as it stands, I really have no other honest option.

[qwertyMike]

48. You do belive that

You think it's a cult?
Who cares what you think?

Maybe it is a cult, but SO WHAT?
duh

[Vidar]

32. They used "higher power" (not "almighty power" or "god") to avoid

such objections as yours. At least a third of my 12 step compatriots are atheists.

[Deep13]

34. I don't doubt it.

The steps themselves use the term higher power once at #2, but then just say "God" with a big "G." What other higher powers can restore someone to sanity? And why do the meetings begin and end with prayers?

[Vidar]

42. Nature, good friends, a beloved pet, a hobby. The list goes on.

[KurtNYC]

44. there is a big difference between religion and spirituality

religion is a one-size-fits-all institution based organization
Spirituality is a one-to-one relationship with whatever you feel is a higher power.
I think AA and other 12-steps make a reasonable effort to be more spiritual than religious. And I don't have a problem with that.

[datasuspect]

47. the primary text of the program refers to an interventionist god similar to the christian god

in fact, read the third step prayer, it invalidates what you claim.

the qualification here is that there are two programs in AA: "the Program," the first part of the big book; and "the program," i.e., the meeting culture which often has no ostensible relationship with the actual Program of recovery Bill W. laid out so many years ago.

[Vidar]

52. No question. AA was based on an Episcopal self help program--

the Oxford Group. The Big Book, published in the 30's reflects that affinity. AA itself has evolved since that time & there are almost 200 other types of 12 step groups that have moved considerably from the original religious language.

[graywarrior]

40. Who gives a flying fuck

I got sober in Lynn Ma--a godless city if ever there was one. TONS of us got sober attending those meetings. If you've never been to a meeting, you have no right to criticize. If you have been there and didn't stay, then you probably have a drug or alcohol problem. That statement probably sounds as ridiculous to you as your does to me. The whole point of the GOD thing is that WE ARE NOT HIM/HER---AA teaches humility.

AA isn't the answer for everyone, but if you stick around long enough you learn that some are sicker than others.

[qwertyMike]

46. Just leave this alone

We've been here before.
Answer the OP

[graywarrior]

53. .

:thumbsup:

[qwertyMike]

45. Me too

There could have been a bag of pot sitting before me, and if I was in the withdrawal stage from alcohol I would have (and did) drink after shave to stave off the shakes.

I have smoked maybe 100 joints in my life. Loved 'em. The MUNCHIES. My head went straight into the fridge where I prepared 'pregnant woman food' - Like Pizza + Jam + soy sauce.

A hoot.
I guess I'm a pure alcoholic (Irish of course)

Now sober, but I can tackle the odd doobie. It makes me dream in IMAX.

Mick

[RetroLounge]

3. The legality has no effect on me one way or the other

:shrug:

RL

[graywarrior]

4. But surely you must have a philosophical opinion about it

[RetroLounge]

8. Nope. Not at all...

Don't care one way or the other.

RL

[FloridaJudy]

5. It's a lot less damaging and addictive than alcohol

I don't get preachy on my friends who still drink, so why should I condemn the pot smokers? And although it goes against the AA Party Line, I do know more than a few people who no longer drink, but still use pot without going overboard. One guy I know hasn't taken a drink in over thirty years, and only lights up every month or so. I'd still call that Recovery, though many would disagree with me.

I say legalize it, and tax the hell out of it.

[MajorChode]

10. Marijuana isn't addictive

At least no more so than playing video games, golf, fishing, or many other obsessions that people have.

Using the medical definition of "addiction", marijuana simply is not. It is commonly used by those who seek to demonize the substance, but it really isn't accurate in terms of describing a genuine drug or alcohol addiction.

[Lil Missy]

6. I don't smoke pot, never have. But I'd say just decriminalize it.

To legalize it would get the government involved. Do you really want the government to monitor dose and tax it? I think not.

I don't give a shit myself, but I don't care if others smoke pot. I'd rather see it sold under the table, and decriminalized. I don't want to see it taken over by government.

[MajorChode]

11. I don't smoke the stuff either, but I'm more for legalization than decriminalization

The biggest problem with pot being illegal is it forces those who want to buy pot into dealing with drug dealers. So now potheads have to sometimes deal with the same folks who are selling ecstasy, heroin, illicit OxyContin, and other substances that are genuinely addictive and major ills on society.

[MajorChode]

7. Isn't that kinda like asking someone with a foot fetish what they think of Selma Hayek's boobs?

[RetroLounge]

9. ...

:applause:

RL

[graywarrior]

12. Or someone with a duck fetish what they think of Alan Rickman's whatever

[MajorChode]

15. So what do you think of Alan Rickman's whatever?

[graywarrior]

16. I can only fantasize....

which I do alot.

[Dogtown]

29. Her dance scene in "Dust to Dawn"

Selma's got sole!

:9

[Shell Beau]

43. Maybe not. Many alcoholics have addictive personalities.

They may replace one addiction for another.

BTW, I have no issue with pot being legal. I am actually all for it. But I can see where it can get sticky with someone who is an addict.

[MajorChode]

50. Except the problem there is you can't get addicted to pot

Which was the smart-assed point I was trying to make.

[Shell Beau]

51. I think you can get in the habit of doing anything.

I know someone who beg to differ with you about pot addiction. When he tried to quit (after smoking every day for a long time) he had many sleepless nights and night sweats. I guess that would be "detoxing", but he is back to smoking. I think you can get addicted to anything if it is in your nature. Gambling, shopping, porn, etc. It is addictive personality.

[Roon]

13. My Father is a hardcore 12-stepper...he still goes to AA meetings

even though he has been sober for over 25 years.........but every once in a while..heck, maybe once every two years....he tokes up with friends.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

31. A hardcore 12-stepper who smokes pot.

:*

[abq e streeter]

14. just because some of us develop addictive relationships to various substances/activities

I can see no justification for making criminals out of those who use their drug of choice responsibly , which is the case with the overwhelming majority of pot smokers I've known...

[graywarrior]

17. Totally agree with you

[Dogtown]

30. Excellent response, abq e streeter

:toast:

[SPKrazy]

19. I say legalize it

tax it and make money off it for the government programs rather than have billions of dollars going untaxed to an industry that would be very popular and in fact....

I say legalize all drugs. It should be a person's choice to do it or not. Just make the manufacture of dangerous ones illegal in houses, or anywhere but regulated factories.

Use the toxic waste to fight the war on terror... :P

[Lil Missy]

21. Nope. Just decriminalize it. No government, no taxes.

I don't smoke dope, and never have. But it's stupid to make it a criminal offense.

Just don't smoke it in my house. It stinks. And makes me nauseous.

[KitchenWitch]

20. Legalize it,

And get the FDA out of the grips of Big Pharma.

Big Pharma has a lot invested in making sure pot stays illegal, because they cannot patent a naturally growing plant. I would imagine Big Pharma has a lot to do with all the "reefer madness" propaganda.

[old mark]

22. I have 21 years free of alcohol, longer than that with no other

drugs, including pot.
I don't use it, I don't care if other people do or not.

Use of pot thould be legal. Make it, sell it, tax is like tobacco. Stop the illegal business, put the dealers in prison, let the users out.

Get more treatment programs going for those who want to stop.

Of course, none of this will happen. Too much money from the illegal drug trade goes to politicians, law enforcement, banks, etc. This is the real drug problem.

mark

[Torn_Scorned_Ignored]

25. If you're a Dry Drunk

it really doesn't matter. I've heard dry drunks give leads in meetings about how "sobriety" has changed their lives, only to see them entering a bar down the street.

I've heard and know some dry drunks who do smoke pot and make the same claims, and they are so miserable they would be happier drinking.

Then there are the AA members who practice the 12 Steps and 12 Traditions who are happy and "restored to sanity" who are totally against not only Pot but will tell you if you need to take medication prescribed by a doctor, take it. As opposed to those members who say you shouldn't take any mood altering meds, regardless.

It all depends on your point of view.

Those who practice the Steps and Traditions mostly feel what you do in your own life is of no concern to them. It's a personal program.

[graywarrior]

33. The meeting I was at today was about presctiption drug addiction

You could see the backs of the old timers go up and you could've cut the tenseness with a knife.

[Kajsa]

36. Hell YES!

Even if I can't smoke it anymore,
that doesn't mean it shouldn't
be legal.

Yeah- that's how my mind works-

:D

[astral]

37. I think that recovery means avoiding pot too

for MOST of us. But for those people who do not need to be in recovery, pot's no more of a sin than liking your coffee. I also believe that some people who can't quit drinking but for the help of pot should definitely smoke to their heart's content so they don't drink themselves to death. I don't know why it is, but it seems some alkys can't be 100% "Clean and Sober."

Why is it okay to be a coffee addict?
Why is it okay to be a nicotine fiend, smoking or not?

Individual people make up their own rules and draw their own lines in the sand, but the others in recovery don't have to try to follow the same rules. And quitting drinking and smoking pot instead may very well MEAN being in recovery to some people, truly in their heart of hearts, while others simply want to stay off the booze because it is the worst deadliest drug -- if you are an alcoholic.

I still support trying to keep it out of the hands of minors; but if they are going to get high I would rather it be pot than some chemical that's going to kill them or ruin their minds.

[graywarrior]

41. True

I can't substitute one for the other. I can't do either in safety because I abuse any substance that takes me out of reality.

But I'm not against legalizing pot.

[Iggo]

38. Legalize everything.

Wouldn't matter to me.

I didn't quit because it was illegal.

[get the red out]

56. Bingo

I don't understand why people have a hard time with this concept?

[Iggo]

57. Yeah, I know.

Apples and pick-up trucks. (As opposed to apples and oranges, I mean...lol.)

[Rhiannon12866]

39. I'm sure that most of my fellow members would disagree with me,

but I've always felt it should be legalized and still do... :-) :hi:

[Lilith Velkor]

49. Surprising results n/t

[NMDemDist2]

54. I'd be in the "hell yeah" camp

I'd never buy or use any (HP Willing) but pot's a lot less toxic than booze IMO

:hi:

[get the red out]

55. Doesn't mean I have to use it if it is legal

Alcohol is legal, doesn't mean I have to go out and buy a fifth of Makers Mark. No reason pot shouldn't be treated like alcohol.

[In_The_Wind]

58. Take pot out of the hands of the dealers!

Probation didn't work for bathtub gin.
Nor is it keeping pot users from finding a source for their drug of choice.