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CanuckAmok Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 02:07 PM
Original message
I have a Major Pet Peeve...
I don’t like overt sexism. I acknowledge that it’s human nature to be somewhat sexist to one degree or another, just as it’s human nature to be racist or otherwise xenophobic to one degree or another. It’s finding our way beyond these atavistic traits which makes us ‘better’ people, and that’s one reason I prefer the company of ‘progressive liberals’ to that of other people, because ‘liberals’ work against centuries of conventional thought regarding the oppression of one group by another. Ha! Even that is a type of classist discrimination against non-liberals—there’s no escape!

Unfortunately, a statement I made recently was misinterpreted and manipulated by further posts to appear sexist. I agree in retrospect that what I said, even in the spirit in which it was posted, did appear to be sexist, particularly (but not exclusively) as it was re-used by others. and I apologised to the subject of my statement, and took steps to remove the entire thread, which had become more an more offensive with each subsequent contribution.

However, that wasn’t enough, and several posts since have brought out some extremely offensive (albeit enlightening) statements of sexism from both ‘camps’.

My peeve is the double standard between sexism against man and sexism against women. Of course, no enlightened person supports sexism against women, even in jokes. However, even on DU, sexism against men is not condemned. Sure, some of it is light-hearted and somewhat accurate sometimes, that doesn’t diminish the hurt that can be felt by even the most innocent attack against one.

It seems perfectly acceptable to state things such as:

“…men think through their penises…”, “…men have (life) too easy…”, and “…men have tiny little brains…”, which are things which have been stated on this forum lately.

Why is this tolerated, here of all places?

I’m not suggesting some sort of PC lockdown where everyone says nothing out of fear of being labeled “unmutual”, but a little more sensitivity could certainly be exercised before posting sweeping generalisations about either gender, don't you think?

I understand that SOME men have had many, many advantages in life. So have SOME women. Yes, I even acknowledge that far more men have than women. So what? The numbers don’t matter to me, because they don’t include me (although some would argue they do). They don’t include most of you either, so why split hairs? I also understand that some people, even on this forum, seem to think that while sexism against women is heinous, sexism against men is justifiable because of some sort of sense of payback, or leveling the field, manufacturing a sense of empowerment at mens' expense, or whatever.

In much the same way as only supporting Freedom of Speech for the views you agree with isn’t supporting Freedom of Speech at all (thanks to Chomsky for that one), being ‘justifiably sexist’ is being sexist. Period.

Now, this WILL become a flame-fest, so in the interest of not being upset by the responses to my own post, I’m putting this thread on ignore shortly after posting, but I invite other DUers to discuss this issue, hopefully calmly and without resorting to insults.

I want to make a few of my opinions clear:

1) This society may very well be patriarchal, but that patriarchy is ruled by a tiny percentage of the world’s population, and those people are rich white men, for the most part. However, many women are also leaders and lieutenants of this oppressive uber-class. We could sit here all day and argue about who pulls the strings in our society, but my gut instinct is that it ain’t me, or most of you. We sit here, day after day and argue about which underclass is oppressing who, which is exactly what our masters want. While we fight and foil our own attempts at putting up a united front, people like Condoleeza Rice (admittedly the ‘poorest’ multimillionaire in the Cabinet) and George Bush get richer and more powerful, at our expense.

2) I grew up very, very poor. I was raised by a single mother who cleaned rich peoples’ houses for $3 an hour to make ends meet. I now live rather comfortably because I worked hard, and because I’m fairly intelligent, and, some (myself included) might say, lucky. I have essentially held two jobs in my life, both which strictly adhere to fair and non-discriminatory hiring policies. One was governed by the Federal Government, and the other by a Union. And, incidentally, my current position is one which is populated by about 65% women. And, for the record, we all make exactly the same amount. I get extremely upset when people glibly suggest that all men are somehow tied into some mysterious and omnipotent Mason-like society which dishes out executive power to anyone with a pale penis. Most men, like probably 99.99999%, and I’m talking globally AND locally, never have access to this kind of power, or enjoy the benefits of this type of privilege. I have never had the opportunity to advance myself based on my gender, and I take exception with anyone who suggests otherwise. In fact, my first name is a ‘unisex’ name, so people who cold-call me for interviews don’t even know my gender until we speak.

3) There are people on this board who suggest, no, STATE, that “men have all the advantages”. First of all, that’s untrue and generalist. Secondly, that is entirely dependent on how one defines an ‘advantage’. To illustrate: if you think it’s an ‘advantage’ to be conscripted into combat duty based on your gender in most armed forces in the world, then yes, men have that one sewn up. If you think it’s ‘advantageous’ to have to argue your right for access to your own children following a divorce instead of it being widely accepted that the children naturally belong with you, then men sweep that one, too. All I’m saying is that there are advantages and disadvantages to being male, and advantages and disadvantages to being female. Furthermore, to suggest that "men have all the advantages" is a pretty discouraging thing for young women to hear. If we want to end this perceived or real cycle of the glass ceiling, we have to stop instilling this kind of defeatest rhetoric in the minds of young people.

4) “…women are always expected to shoulder the responsibility of contraception…”. Okay, where to start… I have never left that responsibility to my female partners, unless they volunteer it. Even in that case, as someone who has never wanted children but has been in relationships with women who do, I have never completely trusted a partner with the awesome responsibility of preventing unwanted (by me) pregnancy, so I have always taken steps myself, including having a vasectomy. Am I alone in this action? A multi-billion industry manufacturing condoms and other male contraceptives, and providing vasectomy procedures suggests I am not.

5) There are several people on this board who constantly quack about the oppression they are under. These people come from various walks of life and, to be sure, have had various life experiences which have shaped their opinions. However, I find it galling that someone of either gender can actually sit down at a computer terminal in a comfortable college, downtown condo, or split-level bungalow in the wealthiest nation in the world, and complain about his/her oppression. As someone who has been a full-time worker since age seventeen, it particularly irks me when someone in his/her twenties logs on between classes to complain about how “men are given the better jobs at higher pay” without having to actually go out and find a full-time job themselves. Believe me, there about five billion people on this planet, split just about evenly by gender, who would (and do) kill or die to ‘suffer’ this kind of ‘oppression’. You want to talk about oppression? Go to Africa. Go to China. Go to Central America. Go to the Former Yugoslavia. Go to the Arctic. Look at other species. We Middle-Class Westerners are, to a man, the winners of “life’s lottery”. Sure, it can suck being poor in America. It can suck being a woman in America. It can suck being Gay, Black, Hispanic, Jewish, or Tibetan in America. But it can and does suck far, far worse and with much more frequency, elsewhere.

I guess the point of my little rant is that we aren’t each others’ enemies, and we should really stop behaving as if we are. Sure, the grass will always look greener on the other gender, but we are not actually that different. And, more importantly, while we continue to work at crossed purposes, we are being collectively oppressed.

Okay, end rant. Now if you’ll excuse me, I have an appointment to drink goats' blood and worship Norse Gods with Rupert Murdoch and John Ashcroft. It’s a guy thing…you wouldn’t understand.
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moosedog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 02:14 PM
Response to Original message
1. You are right..
i'm a woman and I like men. They are different in their ways of thinking, in my opinion, but that is why life is interesting. It isn't just men or women that is different...it is our life experiences. We go through different trials and the best way to deal with it is to understand other people and enjoy the differences. What would life be without variety? Well, I had to add my thoughts on this. Mrs. Moose
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grannylib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 02:19 PM
Response to Original message
2. Good post, and I apologize if I've been guilty of this...
you are absolutely right, of course...
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silverlib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 02:21 PM
Response to Original message
3. Great rant...
Well worded and hopefully not flame bait.

"You want to talk about oppression? Go to Africa. Go to China. Go to Central America. Go to the Former Yugoslavia. Go to the Arctic. Look at other species. We Middle-Class Westerners are, to a man, the winners of “life’s lottery”." is the only part I don't concur. There are many oppressed people in the wealthiest of countries. They are not sitting at computer terminals. I fear, without drastic changes in our political environment, we may go from the politically oppressed to finding ourselves outside of "life's lottery" in our own countries.

But otherwise, you have made a very good and valid point. We spend waisted time and energy by belittling each other. We should be bringing each other up and not tearing each other down. Most of it, although done jokingly, is still done. Most of all, we need to really listen to each other and to ourselves. Such rhetoric is not fun unless it's fun for everyone.

Good rant.

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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 02:26 PM
Response to Original message
4. You're right
Edited on Wed Mar-10-04 02:27 PM by redqueen
Same thing happens with race... white people are mocked and it's somehow OK.

Nice rant. :)

edit to say: we should really all try to get a sense of humor, though. I love Chappelle's show becaues he's not afraid to poke fun at everyone. Women should be more accepting of humorous digs from men and vice versa. But that's just MHO.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 02:27 PM
Response to Original message
5. first of all.....
Edited on Wed Mar-10-04 02:28 PM by slinkerwink
To say that men suffer the form of sexism on the same level as women suffer from sexism is ridiculous, because this is a patriarchial society that we live in, so the level of sexism is disproportionally higher for women than for men.As for the statement of things such as: "...men think through their penises..." et al., I was framing them within a cultural context in which society encourages males to center themselves around their sexual organs. I also made a few points that men can control themselves---that they can control what they say---and that they can control their sexist comments to women. However, our culture ignores this fact that men can control themselves, and sets the lack of sexual control on hormones when it comes to men.

That's "societally acceptable" when it comes to that as an excuse for rape, for date rape, and for making catcalls towards women. That is why I get upset when I hear that men can't control themselves, or what they think, and do because of their so-called hormones.


My peeve is the double standard between sexism against man and sexism against women. Of course, no enlightened person supports sexism against women, even in jokes. However, even on DU, sexism against men is not condemned. Sure, some of it is light-hearted and somewhat accurate sometimes, that doesn’t diminish the hurt that can be felt by even the most innocent attack against one.


To even question whether this society is patriarchial is silly, because it is patriarchial. For instance, there's the inequity in pay, in health insurance, and in access to jobs. It's not just the "few rich white men" that compromise this patriarchial society---it also is men of every ethnicity and background, and their gender predisposes them to a lot more economical advantages than there is for women.

This society may very well be patriarchal, but that patriarchy is ruled by a tiny percentage of the world’s population, and those people are rich white men, for the most part. However, many women are also leaders and lieutenants of this oppressive uber-class. We could sit here all day and argue about who pulls the strings in our society, but my gut instinct is that it ain’t me, or most of you. We sit here, day after day and argue about which underclass is oppressing who, which is exactly what our masters want. While we fight and foil our own attempts at putting up a united front, people like Condoleeza Rice (admittedly the ‘poorest’ multimillionaire in the Cabinet) and George Bush get richer and more powerful, at our expense.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are several people on this board who constantly quack about the oppression they are under. These people come from various walks of life and, to be sure, have had various life experiences which have shaped their opinions. However, I find it galling that someone of either gender can actually sit down at a computer terminal in a comfortable college, downtown condo, or split-level bungalow in the wealthiest nation in the world, and complain about his/her oppression. As someone who has been a full-time worker since age seventeen, it particularly irks me when someone in his/her twenties logs on between classes to complain about how “men are given the better jobs at higher pay” without having to actually go out and find a full-time job themselves. Believe me, there about five billion people on this planet, split just about evenly by gender, who would (and do) kill or die to ‘suffer’ this kind of ‘oppression’. You want to talk about oppression? Go to Africa. Go to China. Go to Central America. Go to the Former Yugoslavia. Go to the Arctic. Look at other species. We Middle-Class Westerners are, to a man, the winners of “life’s lottery”. Sure, it can suck being poor in America. It can suck being a woman in America. It can suck being Gay, Black, Hispanic, Jewish, or Tibetan in America. But it can and does suck far, far worse and with much more frequency, elsewhere.


How do you even know that I haven't gone out and found a full-time job? I have, and there were several jobs that fell through when the employer found out that I was hearing-impaired. Also, I found a full-time job where I worked over 55 hours per week, and it was one of the toughest and most enlightening jobs I've ever had.
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CanuckAmok Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. "How do you even know that I haven't gone out and found a full-time job?"
Edited on Wed Mar-10-04 02:31 PM by CanuckAmok
What makes you think I was specifically talking about you?

And, I never said that men and women suffer sexism to the same degree. I am stating that the degree doesn't matter; it's wrong in both cases.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. oh, because your post is a continuation of my post about sexism
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CanuckAmok Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Wow, you really think it's all about you, don't you?
Whatever...knock yourself out.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. here....
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=859358

The title of your post is the same as mine, so I'd call that a continuation of a flame war from that post.
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Colin Ex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. I liked this argument the first time
when it was your 150+ response circle-jerk.

Oh, wait, I didn't like it then, either.

Can't you guys slap each other up over something better, like musical taste or Hello Kitty vs. My Little Pony?

-C
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Wow great post slinkerwink!
Edited on Wed Mar-10-04 02:31 PM by redqueen
I think that the more socially-acceptable forms of male-bashing seem to be having a backlash which works against recognizing and correcting the patriarchal crap you mentioned.

I guess a solution to this might be differentiating between humor and serious problems. The problem of women joking about men who think with their private parts really doesn't come anywhere close to the problems you mention.
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CanuckAmok Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. That is true, RedQueen...
I think most men (certainly most men I know) don't want to victimize women.

But regardless of gender, being constantly belittled certainly takes its toll on one's psyche, and people can react to that kind of attack in different ways, some more harmful than others.

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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #12
22. This brings up something I've often wondered about
Why is it there are no good insults for white people? I mean there are some, but they don't get a reaction from white people the same way the ugly words about blacks, hispanics, asians, etc. get a reaction from minorities in general. Why is that?

I've noticed women are getting more immune to being called a 'bitch'. Hopefully all groups can learn to ignore stupidity and not let little things like words get them so riled up. Words are words.
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CanuckAmok Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. I wonder that too...
I really think the 'playing field' is leveling to a pont which has never existed before in history. Obviously, it's far from completely level, but, at least in our society, things are evolving to a degree...

I really wonder what will happen in issues of race and gender politics in my lifetime. I'm no expert, obviously, but it's something I watch with fascination.
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Colin Ex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 02:39 PM
Response to Original message
13. Here is a picture of a bunny
for the flamewar that's about two seconds away from erupting.

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MissMillie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. That's no ordinary rabbit
It's a killer!
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CanuckAmok Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. "it's got a vicious streak a mile wide!"
Must be a boy-bunny! ;)
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. can you please lock this thread? it's a continuation of a flame war
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CanuckAmok Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. It's only a flame-war if you let it be.
It can be rational discourse, too.

If some people can not be so darned reactionary.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. I just think it's interesting you did a continuation of my post
:shrug:
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CanuckAmok Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. It's MY pet peeve, not yours.
Not a coninuation.

But sure, get it shut down...viva la Freedom of Speech!
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. it is a continuation
because you're making oblique references to me by using blanket statements about a "few certain people" here who have protested against your post.
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CanuckAmok Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. Why don't you just let it continue organically...?
or better yet, exercise your right to put it and/or me on ignore? Other people are contributing to this topic rationally; why does that bother you so much?
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. I'm not bothered by their contributions to this thread, but I'm
just amused by the fact that you continued a flame war which is against DU rules.
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Colin Ex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. The Rabbit of Death!
It heralds DOOOOOM!
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camero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #13
21. Did that bunny
eat too many chocolate bunnies? :D Just joking.
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Burma Jones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #13
28. You're not Art Dudley are you??
Lotsa folks need bunnies here.
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Colin Ex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 02:53 PM
Response to Original message
24. My two cents, and another picture of a bunny


Now then: I pretty much agree with you. I think we can put the energy toward kvetching into something more constructive, like activism or masturbating or something else that doesn't annoy me so goddamn much.

I think that some jokes about either gender are funny. I think lighthearted jokes about why men are all assholes are funny. I think lighthearted jokes about why women are all dumb are funny. I know that all men are not assholes and that all women are not dumb; I just try to have a sense of humor about this shit and to not sweat the small stuff.

You make a very good point off the bat, by pointing off that the average man at the bar is not the one doing the screwing when it comes to this kind of thing; the guy (I use that term without regard to gender, in this case it means upper or ruling class) doing the screwing is pretty fair about it in that he applies it to most everyone.

Maybe I'll think of something else later -- these bunnies are really cute.

-C
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Moderator DU Moderator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
29. locking
Please use the alert function when you have concerns about posts and misrepresentations thereof. Thank you. :hi:
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