DU photographers.. I need your suggestions!

[Ava]

I'm starting film school at NYU in the fall. Freshmen take a course called frame & sequence and are required to have a 35mm still film camera with a built in light meter and a fully manual setting. Automatic cameras aren't acceptable.

I have a 35mm but it has an automatic option along with the manual option, so it cannot be used. I'm looking at cameras and of those that I've looked at I think I'm going to go with the Nikon FM10. (tech specs here - http://www.nikonusa.com/Find-Your-Nikon/Product/Film-Camera/1689/FM10.html )

Anyone have any other suggestions? Another camera I should consider?

[Schema Thing]

1. nope, I wouldn't suggest anything else

that will be perfect, and you'll have a huge range of good lenses to chose from. FM10s are great in that they are the last truly mechanical camera - they don't even have to have a battery to work.


I'm not going to pretend to remember all the different older model cameras, but I think you really are limited to an FM10 or else a much older model camera (like an F1 or F2) if you truly can't even have an automatic function on the camera you use.

Another option would be to use an old rangefinder camera, but I'm not sure how economical that would be.


If I remember correctly, even the Pentax K1 (the "beginner" basic 35mm of choice) has an automatic setting.

[MajorChode]

4. All of the FM series Nikons are fully manual

There's the original FM, the FM2, the FM2n, and the FM2/T. The nice thing about them is they will accept probably the widest range of Nikkor lenses which you can pick up for a song these days.

[Schema Thing]

5. yes

I remember that now. The FM10 is just the latest, and the one Nikon is manufacturing now. It would be interesting to know what the used FM/2s cost vs the new FM10.


I remember the coding now: FE (E=electronic) vs FM (M=mechanical)

[MajorChode]

7. On flea-bay a FM2n sells in the $130-150 range

That's for the body only, but you can get Nikkor lenses from practically nothing to big bucks depending on which one you want.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

2. My dear Ava...

I have no idea, but you could post this in the Photographers Forum. There are MANY experts there!

Good luck!

:hi:

[MajorChode]

3. That's not a bad choice

I'm not sure why you would want to buy a new one though. Nikon film cameras are dirt cheap on the used market these days. You can get a really nice FM2n on flea-bay for around $130 and they are arguably a better camera. As the FM2 series was built to be bulletproof, I wouldn't worry too much about buying a used one from a reputable seller. Save your money and buy a nice lens for it. A wide angle lens (such as the Nikkor 24mm f/2.8 AIS) is a really nice thing to have on a fully manual camera. It's hard to get out of focus with a wide angle due to the massive depth of field and it gives you a lot of creative options.

I would also suggest you get a cheaper 50mm Nikkor and some macro extension tubes if you want to have some real fun in photography class.

I still have my FM2n which I've had for about 20 years and shot thousands of frames with it.

[csziggy]

6. Check what B&H has for used cameras

http://www.bhphotovideo.com

They have some of the used stock listed, but when I purchased from them, not everything was on the web site and they also had off display new items for used prices. They sell pro equipment all the way down to point and shoot. Great place for cameras!

Lucky you - you can probably actually go into B&H to shop! I've bought a few things from them by phone and they were very helpful with picking out my first Nikon - used even.

If you tell them what you need, they can make sure you get the right thing.

I have no relationship with them other than being a satisfied customer.

[hippywife]

10. I second the rec for B&H

I've bought three cameras there, two for work. They are the best out there.

[csziggy]

11. Yes - I forgot about Adorama! They are good, too.

I haven't bought as much from them but I did find some excellent used lens for my Nikons from them at great prices. In fact, I may have purchased my Nikon D70 kit from them.

Watch out for some of the other online camera stores. When I was shopping for my Nikon digital SLR, there were several that were all out of the same block in NYC, all had dirt low advertised prices but when you actually tried to order, nothing was in stock. For only x$addtional, they could sell you "better" stuff, some of which was gray market so no warranty in the US.

Also, B&H sells very low cost warranties on their used equipment. I never had to use any of those, but I felt it was well worth it for the camera bodies.

[hippywife]

12. I think B&H has the best reputation out there.

They've always had good deals available and have never let me down in any area when I've ordered from them. The only thing I can't get them to do is stop sending me their paper catalogs. LOL

[csziggy]

20. B&H is tops and Adorama is a close second - both are worth checking

But the OP said she was at NYU so B&H immediately came to mind. For some reason I was thinking Adorama was in the MidWest, but they are also in NY.

B&H finally quit sending me their paper catalogs - they remind me of the old Computer Shopper magazines. As one friend put it, "Computer Shopper is a small tree converted into a geeks' Wish Book!"

[Ava]

16. i love B&H

i've used them several times and always have been happy.

i did check them out. i can find the camera + lens cheaper elsewhere though. but b&h is great! my canon xh a1 came from them. :)

[TreasonousBastard]

8. Well, you might not be using it much after the course, so...

the camera body isn't as important as the lens mount, and it isn't necessary to buy new. Nikon, Canon, and Pentax lenses are all tops, with the edge going to Pentax a few years ago, and maybe to Canon now. Zeiss and Leitz are superb, of course, but pricey.

You do know about Adorama and B&H? Since you'll be in the city studying photography and film, those are two places you'll be seeing a lot of. There are other pro shops, too, that you'll hear about.

There's a nice manual Vivitar camera at Adorama with a Pentax mount for a little over a hundred bucks new, and old Nikkormats for as little as $85. But, if you still have your heart set on that new FM10, Adorama has it for a little over $300 with a choice of nice lenses.

(Used Pentax K1000's seem a bit pricey, and go for almost what they used to cost new.)

[Ava]

17. i'll still be using it

i'll certainly be using it the 4 years i'm in school

i've been looking at used pentaxes, but you're right, they are pricy.

i can get the FM10 on amazon brand new with a nice lens for under 300.

i'll go check out the others on Adorama now.. thanks! :)

[old mark]

9. First, nearly any used Canon, Olympus, etc - name brands - can

be found on eBay for dirt cheap. I used to photograph animals - pets, horses, parrots, and I used 4 Olympus OM 1's. They are very sturdy, compact SLR's with great lenses and the controls are well placed - many Nikon users were really impressed with the design of the controls on the OM's. They have all the f-Stops, shutter speeds, etc and can be used manually or auto. Mine served me well for many years till I got out of the business.
FWIW, I recently bought an entire 35mm SLR set - 3 lenses, camera, flash, even a carry bag and more little extras on eBay for $25, a Konica AutoReflex T. First REAL film camera I had in years.

Also, I recommend a Gossen Luna Pro or Luna Lux hand heald light meter.
I have mine for nearly 30 years now.

Nikons are good, but you pay a lot for the name, IMO - you can do better with a Canon or Olympus.

All the best.

mark
(ADDED: for a very quick study in composition, watch a movie called "Lifeboat" directed by Alfred Hitchcock - every frame is beautiful.)

[bif]

13. Go for a Nikon

They make the best lenses around.

[B3Nut]

14. Skip the FM10 - it's not actually made by Nikon

but by Cosina with a Nikon F-mount. Plastic chassis.

Hit KEH.com and get a used FM2 or FM2n, and a 50mm f/1.4 AI or AIS Nikkor lens to start with. That's a true mechanical manual camera, and will last you forever. The FM10 will work, but the FM2/2n is a far, far better camera. Indeed, an old FM would be a great starter body, and is also manual/mechanical.

Then at some point add the 24mm f/2.8 AI or AIS wideangle, and the 105mm f/2.5 AI or AIS short tele for portraits...the 105/2.5 is one of the best portrait lenses ever made by anybody.

Todd in Cheesecurdistan

[Ava]

15. i can't afford the FM2

even a used one on ebay costs about 250 bucks without the lens. i can get the FM10 brand new with a lens for less than 300 on amazon, and used i can get it much cheaper than that.

[B3Nut]

19. Try an original FM

should be cheaper, and solid as a rock. A good FM body can be had for around $100 if you shop around.

Tip: haunt Craigslist...people sometimes unload them for peanuts.

TP

[MajorChode]

21. Nah, just be patient

The people trying to sell them for $250 aren't getting very many takers.

Here's one that sold for $150 just yesterday:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Nikon-FM2N-Film-Camera-Chrome_W0QQitemZ150338737642QQcmdZViewItemQQptZFilm_Cameras?hash=item150338737642&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2|65%3A13|39%3A1|240%3A1318

Another yesterday that sold for $180:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Nikon-FM2n-FM2-n-35mm-MF-SLR-bm956q_W0QQitemZ310134762183QQcmdZViewItemQQptZFilm_Cameras?hash=item310134762183&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2|65%3A13|39%3A1|240%3A1318

Another sold 2 days ago for $130:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Nikon-FM2n-35mm-Film-SLR-Camera-Color-Black_W0QQitemZ300308195941QQcmdZViewItemQQptZFilm_Cameras?hash=item300308195941&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2|65%3A13|39%3A1|240%3A1318

The 35-70mm lens that comes with the FM10 is a piece of shit relative to other Nikkors and they usually sell on flea-bay for around $25. That lens is actually a very poor choice for what you're doing because it's so slow you're going to be either using faster film or only the largest aperture settings unless you are in full sunlight.

You would actually be much better off with a 50mm 1.8 (or 1.4 if you can afford it). It's a much more versatile lens, especially since you will probably be doing your own developing and cropping. Add a set of extension tubes (which are cheap) and you've got a pretty decent macro lens.

[hunter]

18. Our local camera store has dozens of good used manual 35mm cameras.

They sell for for next to nothing compared to what they once cost new. And we're not a big city.

I go there because it's the only place in town that still sells 120 film and such.

If you can find one the expertise of an "old school" camera store would be very valuable.

If I was buying a manual 35mm camera that's where I'd go because I'd know the camera was in good shape and it would cost less than anything I bought online.

My son is using my wife's old Nikkormat for similar reasons. You can't learn the basics of photography with a digital camera because the cameras are too smart and do everything for you. To build a good solid intuition about anything you've got to make mistakes, but digital cameras are programmed so it's difficult to make mistakes.

It's like if cars mostly drove themselves then most people would be very bad drivers. You learn learn a lot from your little misadventures -- the curbs you bump, the five minute flustered parallel parking attempts, and the drivers who honk their horns or flip you off when you forget to signal, etc.

[Mike 03]

22. So long as it has manual options. I was in the same boat as you, Film School, needed movie as

well as still cameras. Mine was a Canon 35, manual, with a number of options, but there's nothing wrong with getting an auto so long as it has manual capabilities and the ability to accept other lenses and filters (if you want to be creative).

If anything, I was more attached to my still cam than my movie cam.

The ability to attach filters of a wide variety, from tinted, color and polarized to magnification was more important than anything.

Just be able to adjust the shutter speed, f stop and be able to attach filters to neutralize unwanted green from fluorescent lights, etc...

Contratulations for getting into film school!

It's cool to meet someone online who is going to NYU. (I was USC). NYU has a fantastic reputation. I think DePalma went there.

Please keep us posted on what you are up to and working on. Film school is really exciting and I would love to know what it is like now versus when I was there.

[Mike 03]

23. Random but a bit related: Do they still make black and white 35mm still film? NT

[hunter]

24. Yep. Lots of black and white films...

Try here:

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/c402-Black-and-White-Film-35mm

There's even C-41 process B&W you can get developed anywhere -- but B&W prints on color paper always look odd, they are best printed on B&W paper...

[MajorChode]

26. C-41 B&W negates the value of B&W

With B&W, you only have one layer of emulsion which gives the film a much greater dynamic range. Color film has at least 3 layers of emulsion which gives it less dynamic range.

Part of the reason why Ansel Adams' photographs are so breathtaking is because of his brilliant use of the dynamic range of his film.

So while C-41 process B&W might give you a B&W image, it's not the same as true B&W.

[begin_within]

25. To be clear, even if you turn off autofocus and auto exposure, they still won't allow the camera?

Even if you meticulously document every f-stop, shutter speed, focal length and focus setting, they still wont accept your work? You have to go back 3 decades to get to the era of all-manual cameras.

[MajorChode]

27. They probably want to discourage people from cheating

That's not to say you can't produce a fully manual camera as proof you have one, and then expose your film with an F6, but at least you have to prove you have one.

[begin_within]

28. even with all that, how can you prove that you used the manual camera for a particular photo?

[MajorChode]

29. As I said, they ain't gonna know if you used an F6

However, ultimately you're only cheating yourself. It's vitally important that a prospective pro photographer understand the cumulative effects of metering, aperture, exposure, and lighting. Any pro photographer (with the possible exception of sports photographers and a few others) can pick up a fully manual camera and take pictures of the same caliber as the much more highly advanced cameras they use. In fact, before digital took over, most pro photographers that used Nikon kept a FM series camera as a backup.