Obesity and respect: Can you respect people with low self-esteem?

[AlienGirl]

This is an interesting thing I've often seen with regard to the Weight Wars, here and elsewhere. People assume that being fat necessarily means that a person has low self-esteem or doesn't respect themself enough, and say something like, "If you have no self-respect, then why should I respect you?"

But why do we assume that a person has to have high self-esteem and a lot of self-respect to be worthy of the respect of others? Isn't the urge to pick on the already-apparently "down" one of the baser urges in our nature, comparable to the way chickens will pick at a wounded cagemate until they kill it? Could it be we're all instinctively, on some level, social-darwinists? (Could social-darwinists maybe be right?)

Tucker

P.S. And why do we never accuse the wilfully ignorant of having no self-respect because they consume crappy news and infotainment instead of informing themselves?

[Lindacooks]

1. Good questions, all.

Yes, I do think that needing to make yourself 'better' than others is a very base human instinct. It comes out most among the uneducated and the just plain stupid; they can't control their base instincts.

[camero]

2. I think we should respect people whoever they are

Trust is earned. Respect is given.

Seems we want to blame the individual for everything that happens to them. Look in LBN for the article on DK having health problems to see an example of that.

[SiobhanClancy]

3. It's one of worst aspects of human character...

It's become unacceptable(thankfully)to denigrate people for race,religion etc....but it remains acceptable to certain people to run down the overweight,probably driven by the idea that it is a "flaw" that a person of strong character would correct. Of course,it is quite hostile and cruel to do so and says a lot more about the character of the one showing disrespect than those on the receiving end. If I were to say that I find big noses "disgusting",and that people who have them should have them "fixed" ,I would surely be called to account for it. Really,the ignorant unfortunates who need to insult and cut down others are deserving of our pity...for they are truly clueless.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

4. I'm 50 lb overweight and I ROCK.

Bow before me now, mortals.

[AngryYoungMan]

5. There is an association between physical condition and discipline.

And it's not so far-fetched. It takes hard work to keep in shape. It's not the same as avoiding bad sources of news etc.

Admittedly it's extremely difficult for the average American to get access to healthy food. But it's not impossible. Admittedly, it's difficult for the average American to get access to INFORMATION about health, obesity, etc. But, again, it's not impossible.

I'm against "blame the victim" arguments. And I've read "Fast Food Nation" and some other books on the subject. People in cosmopolitan areas with access to good food and gyms and non-corporate information about nutrition should be able to keep themselves from getting obese.

There's a serious obesity problem in America. It's largely a corporate construction, but individuals can do something about their own physical condition if they really want to.

Most "diets" are scams etc. but the internet provides all kinds of good information about health, nutrition and exercise.

[Darwin2002]

7. I assume that you have never had a weight "problem" because you simply

don't understand what you are saying. It's very reminiscent of Bush saying that people are poor because they are lazy. People come in different sizes; what is so hard to understand about that? Is everyone the same height? No? Well, why not? Because we have different genetic dispositions. Do we all get the same diseases? No? Get the picture. People are different, come from different genetic stock and have different heights, weights, hair color and eye color.What is so hard to understand? Can you control your height?

[AngryYoungMan]

8. I actually HAVE had a weight problem.

And I understand about different body types. Nevertheless my points about food, nutrition, exercise and knowledge still stand.

on edit: Furthermore, there's an important distinction between being endomorphic and having a problem with unhealthy obesity or morbid obesity. Americans have serious health problems deriving from obesity. This isn't about "body types." It's about really bad food. Look at all the trouble McDonald's is having now as people become more aware of what I'm talking about.

[CO Liberal]

46. Due To Their Physical Make-Up.....

...it's generally easier for a man to lose weight than a female. The female body is designed to store fat for nutrition during pregnancy. And this works against women who are trying to lose weight.

I have always preferred larger women and have dated and married nothing but overweight women since 1972. And many of the women I've met over the years were normal weight until they were molested as children. A lot of fat women are the result of inappropriate contact by men.

Just food for thought.......

[chefgirl]

29. Did you ever consider

You wrote:
>> individuals can do something about their own physical condition if they really want to.<<

Did you ever consider that these people might not 'want' to do anything about it because they don't really give a shit what you or anyone else thinks about them, and therefore show a great deal more self respect than someone who would stoop to denigrating another person based on nothing but their appearance???

-chef-

[Mrs. Venation]

71. I Was Thin As A Rail

until my late thirties, when my metabolism took a dive. Now, I wasn't overweight for at least a decade afterward; that happened when the arthritis in my knees made walking darn near impossible and I was given steroid injections. I gained about 50 pounds in just a few months. I looked like the Pillsbury Dough Boy! I hated it, too.

I had surgery on both knees to repair cartilage and other damage caused by the arthritis. I still have pretty severe pain in both knees, and that makes any exercise involving my legs extremely painful. Try a stationary bike or a treadmill after someone has whacked your knees with a sledge hammer and you'll know a little of the pain I live with on a daily basis.

It is simply unfair, and wrong, to point at overweight people and say they don't try hard enough.

To those of you have have it, enjoy your youth and health while you can, because it might not last forever.

[CO Liberal]

93. I Literally Feel Your Pain, KP.....

I have moderate arthritis in both knees (the result of living through 42 cold, wet winters in New Jersey), circulation problems in both hands and both feet (the result of frostbite when I was 12), and chronic back pain (The combined result of three motor vehicle accidents in less than four years). People with no physical ailments should consider the fact that many people (like you and me) are simply unable to increase their physical activity.

[amazona]

6. you're correct of course

Having low self esteem is pretty much a result of events in your early childhood. No amount of achievement can change it. No amount of being thin will change it. As it happens, I am thin, and I do have some achievements in my life that other people envy (or say they do) but I will never be one of these people who are filled with self esteem. And frankly by this time of century I don't even want to be -- people with self esteem appear just a tad full of themselves if you ask me. They're a bit arrogant and grating really.

I believe we should treat others with respect regardless of our fantasies about whether or not the other person may or may not have self esteem. Most people probably don't. On the inside, we're probably all a writhing ball of insecurities.

SFW?

And, yes, believe it or not, slim people have low self esteem and insecurities too. They may even have more insecurites, depending on the person. Hello, anorexia/bulima and even plastic surgery are not these wonderful indicators of self acceptance. Hell, even diet/exercise is proof that you are dissatisfied with yourself as you are. Now I'm very much in favor of diet/exercise/plastic surgery...but I'm not going to kid myself that my involvement in these ultimately superficial things is proof of any great well of self esteem...I mean come on.

[koopie57]

9. I've taught my kids

#1 - that people are not for hurting and
#2 - that a strong person will help to build another up and a weak person needs to tear another down in order to feel good about themselves.

I think that pointing to a person who is overweight and assuming that they have a poor self-esteen or lack discipline is simply arrogant and ignorant. Obesity is a health problem, of course, and just cuz it is more noticable than other health problems doesn't mean that it is the only one out there. What about the bulemic (sp) who might appear to be average in weight, but they certainly have a severe problem. Just cuz a person can hide something that is considered a problem, doesn't mean that they are any better than those whose problems are more obvious. I think the need to be harsh to another is offensive.

[undergroundpanther]

13. Social Darwinism

Is an excuse for bullies and authoritarians to hate people and scapegoat people rather than care.

If a wolf in a pack stole the prey the pack took down and ate it himself,the pack would destroy him.

Our culture can't handle the basic concept of cooperation ,sharing and tending to one another because of the artificial culture we create based on domination.

Just because chickens dominate one another in their societies doesn't mean WE are chickens too.

This is so annoying when social Darwinist fools look for excuses to dominate deprive or belittle people they point to bad animals,and assume because chickens do it we must be like chickens Maybe the bully authoritarian or CEO greed Meister is still in chicken-land,but I think humans have demonstrated they can say no to the demands of their genetics.Humans can be child free by choice,they can commit suicide and choose to not take advantage of others..We are not bound to this lie of social Darwinism or controlled by the random cruelties of nature all the time anymore.It's only human bullies and authoritarian jerks who thrive in such rigid top down social orders...not people who tend to see beyond the immediate wants,who can nurture others ,care about something other than them self,people with empathy,who can create,respect consent and enjoy the freedom to be who they are..

Social Darwinism today is too often used as just an excuse for some deluded(elitist) people to indulge themselves in alot of unnecessary evils we humans can choose to not do to one another.Social Darwinism will not work in a human culture unless it wants the society it has now of war,rebellion,authority,slavery,exploitation,lies and cruelty.

When people realize authoritarianism is a mental aberration in our society that would be good to weed out of the gene pool than maybe we will grow past our own assholes by not looking up to them as 'leaders'anymore.

And not _All_ animal societies fit into a ruthless sociopaths social Darwinist model. Some animal societies are far more peaceful,fair,sane and successful than ours.Our society is crazy it's anthro-homicidal/suicidal and destroying life as it is on this planet to force it to be something other than what it is .Control freaks destroy life.Authoritarians cripple diversity. Bullies crush the cooperation,sharing,creativity and freedom for people to find sanity and peace in any community.

Social darwinism is the culture of the sociopath,period.
And I think if we want to survive (literally)we have got to stop playing the old social Darwinist power -zero sum games,and make domination and exploitation go the way of trilobites when it comes to our collective and individual behaviors.

[Fleshdancer]

10. Very interesting question....

"But why do we assume that a person has to have high self-esteem and a lot of self-respect to be worthy of the respect of others?"

I guess the Dr. Phil answer would be because why would anyone like someone who didn't like themself? I don't know if I buy into that way of thinking or not, but it proposes another good question to the subject.

Self-esteem and self-respect are complicated things that affect all aspects of how we live our lives...how we stand, walk, interact with others, dress, socialize, etc. When an overweight person is confident, then it's noticeable and attractive regardless of what the scale says.

This goes for all people who don't meet the social standard of beauty...we all know at least one person who glows from their personality and strong sense of self even if they would never be chosen as a supermodel.

Sure, there will always be backward thinking jerks who get off on making fun of people who are overweight, but these people go out of there way to search for "flaws" in others...probably so they can spend a few minutes ignoring their own.

If I had to choose between high self-respect/esteem or the respect of others, I would choose self-respect every time. Self-esteem has always been tough for me personally, but the more I work on it, the happier and healthier I am...now who can't respect something like that?

[oldcoot]

11. Yes, I can respect people with low self-esteem

I really hate amateur psychologists who tell others that they need "more self-esteem." They make it sound like getting more self-esteem is as easy as going to the drug store and buying a bottle of shampoo. Unfortunately, it is not that easy.

I also suspect that people with extremely high self-esteem cause as many problems if not more problems than people with low self-esteem. For an example of the problems caused by arrogance, we need only to look at the Bush administration. Before the war, the hawks in the Bush administration were so confident that they knew what was best, they ignored any evidence that suggested that they were wrong and look at the mess we are in now.

[PVnRT]

23. I agree about "more self-esteem"

I get tired of that as well. Like there's a switch and all you have to do is flick it. Or, even worse, that you're just faking low self-esteem to get people to feel sorry for you or something.

[Bertha Venation]

12. I work with a woman my size who has no intention ever of losing weight.

Rose is The Original Big Beautiful Woman, and I love her like a sister. She understands my desire to lose weight, and I understand her position: she's healthy and happy and WHOLE -- possessing better self esteem than probably half of the people I work with.

BTW, I do in fact judge the willfully ignorant guilty of having no self respect. I'm not proud of it but there it is.

[undergroundpanther]

15. Fatness

Is not simple.

Fatness isn't JUST about will.
Before the 1970's less people were fat .
What has changed since then...

There is more concentrated pollutants in our environment bodies and in our foods.
High fructose corn syrup.
Longer work hours, higher stress,less of a social safety net.
More authoritarianism.
Junk foods pretending to be real food.
Soda pop in schools.
More sedentary jobs.
Stressed out parents not having time or the emotional maturity to teach kids nutrition.
Central air conditioning in every house.
More meals eaten out or on the run, convenience desired over substance,
less time or energy after work/school after school for people to cook and relax,rampant Busyness and community disconnection.
Food sold as an emotional soother and food companies not being honest about their products.Uneducated consumers.USDA run by dishonest sell outs to food industry.
Overblown cultural guilt and pressure over body image conformity to unrealistic "ideals".Society fixating body appearance as an equivalent of self esteem or worth as a person.
Poor people can afford crappy food and good organic or nutritional food priced out of range.There is a direct correlation between poverty and obesity.
Higher cost of living and less cash for more people to use on good food. Stress ,without an outlet. The pumping up of public fear and violence by TV.
Nutritious food,organic food being more costly than junk.
Bad or toxic modern farming methods like hormones in meat milk rampant use of antibiotics and chemicals .
Sedentary video games and other isolated sedentary fun that is more entertaining to us than other active activities.
Frankenfoods slipped into food as if it is good for us,industry ignoring it may have unforeseen effects on our bodies.
Huge homework loads.
Restaurant portions are HUGE now.
People have trouble recognizing hunger fr9om compulsion in a consumer /addiction driven society.

These things were not around ,not as obvious or not as severe when more people were thinner in America.The collective effects of our insane ,market dominated,hierarchical,no safety-net,grow our die,non sharing,uncooperative,social Darwinist,industry polluted,junky cultural lifestyle is making us suffer emotionally and physically,we grow fat and die.
Some people may be able to lose weight yes good for them,but some diet lose it and yo yo back fatter than before.Some people give up after they yo yo a few times. Sometimes the fatness is caused by a deep confronted emotional pain. And people in general feel unsupported.Shrinks are expensive and tied up with controlling individuals,"normalness"issues instead of confronting a sicko culture.
Gyms are too expensive and some are in fact scams,good food is too expensive.Cooking takes time some folks do not have because the bossman demands too much of them.

[Beaker]

17. "good food is too expensive"?????

Bull-fucking-shit.

I shop well, and almost always buy the lowest or sale priced item of what i want- i have very little brand loyalty(except Breyer's ice cream, but i only shop at whatever store has breyer's on sale that particular week). When it comes to cuts of meat or fish, i'm the same way- i always choose by what's on sale, not on what i might want the most.
Good fruits and vegetables are available year-round at reasonable prices, especially if you go to a produce store rather than a grocery store.

my wife and i eat very healthy, and inexpensive food when we eat at home...and often we don't cook, but rather eat all raw...it isn't difficult, but it does take discipline and a little initiative...tat "good food is too expensive" is A LOT of crap.

and as far as restaurant portions being HUGE- (psst-that's what "doggy bags" are for- when my wife and i go out, we generally have enough left for at least one meal each the following day)

[beachbum]

18. pssssssssssst

When you are realllly poor, you really cannot even afford to buy veggies and meat. I know. The prior poster was correct. I know. You dont even get to buy ice cream on sale, much less meat or produce. Eggs, maybe an onion and some eggs. Thats it.

[Beaker]

19. so how do you get obese from an onion and some eggs?

I've been poor. maybe not "really, really" poor...but poor enough that i had to shop very sparsley- and believe me, I wasn't FAT at the time...you need calories to get obese, no matter how you slice it.
I can go to any neighborhood produce store(in a less than affluent area, even) and buy a much more healthy, filling and tasty meal for less than the cost of going to McDonald's.

it's all about shopping and eating RIGHT.

it really is as simple as that.

GOOD food is NOT "too expensive".

[beachbum]

20. That wasnt all that was on the list

Beans, flour, cornmeal, onions, eggs, pasta. That stuff is super cheap. Poor mans food.

[Beaker]

22. nothing but starch...very bad.

try moseying past the produce section instead(it's where you got the onion).
also- have you looked into things like food stamps or emergency food pantry programs?

what's amazing to me(i'm not saying or implying that it applies to you) is that so many "poor" people have plenty of cash for cigarettes and booze, but "not enough" to buy the correct kinds of food...

the two biggest obstacles to most people obtaining GOOD food are ignorance (of available resources and proper nutrition) and lack of initiative.

[kayell]

36. Nice, you expressed just about the same attitude towards the poor

as * did at yale. I'm waiting for the welfare queen remark.

I suggest that you research what the food stamp allotment in your area is for a family your size. Live on it for a month.

A few extra limitations to make the situation more realistic.
- You may not use any food you have in your pantry.
- You may not start the month with a full fridge. Empty it out, so you start even with the average food stamp recipient.
- You must shop at that little run down store in the poor neighborhood. You only have so much gas, and your car sometimes doesnt work very well. Expect to pay a lot more at this store.
- Put away most of your pans. You own an old scratched cheap teflon coated saucepan and an uneven, dented frying pan.
- Each time you go to the grocery store and buy what ever you can, imagine that everyone in the line is stareing at you, making judgements of what you have bought, why you are so lazy, whether you are wasting food, and why exactly you are such a drain on THEM.
- NO going out to eat. Well, ok to be realistic you can check your change jar, and if there are enough quarters, take the kids to McDonalds.
- You probably just ran out of toilet paper and shampoo. Save the change from your food purchase to buy these. You don't want people to think you are filthy in addition to poor.
- Never start cooking until you are dead tired. Remember that you just got home from work as a janitor, or frying food for other people. You are exhausted, and you're dirty.
- At some point in the month, go without using your gas or electricity to cook for a few days - you didn't scrape up enough to pay the bill on time.
- If you run out of food by the end of the month, there is probably a soup kitchen in your community if you are in a city. Walk, because you are also out of gas money. If you're in the country, I hope you saved enough cornmeal and fat to fry up some corn dodgers to keep the kids from crying in hunger.

Come back and tell us about your fun experiences at the end of that month, and how easy it is to eat right.

[Beaker]

37. one comment-

:eyes:

[sangh0]

48. I guess it wasn't too much fun, eh?

Now add getting sick and/or injured into the mix.

[beachbum]

45. Here is what was going on at that time

I was big in trouble with credit cards. I was single. And would not have qualified for any assistance. I didnt make alot, but too much for any assistance. All of my money went to my bills. I had very little left over for food. Hence the carb filled diet. I was always overweight, and I remained overweight and gained more. I worked real hard to pay off those #$%^&* credit cards. They are ALL paid off. Fast forward to the Present: Veggies and Protein! I can afford them both! :)

[Beaker]

55. by shopping well-

like buying fruits and veggies at a produce market rather than a grocery store, buying sale items, etc...you can create very delicious, nutritious, and filling meals for the same cost as buying all those cheap carbs.

and don't say you can't, because i do it.

[CO Liberal]

58. Well, La-Di-Freakin'-Da for YOU!!!!!

:P

As I said in another post, it's easier for women to gain weight than men, and harder for them to take the weight off. It's part of how their bodies are designed.

BTW, your posts seem to be totaly devoid of ssympathy for the plight of others. Just MHO.

[Beaker]

66. and it's just as easy for women to eat well as men.

if i don't seem to have sympathy for people who make the wrong food choices and then cry about being fat and the unfairness of it all-

it's only because i don't.

[Pithlet]

76. That

is very obvious.

You really think it is okay to treat others like crap because they don't make the same life choices as you? Do you really think you can compare the experiences of all others to your own?

[Beaker]

79. i don't.

"You really think it is okay to treat others like crap because they don't make the same life choices as you?"

people can make whatever life choices they want. what bothers me is when they whine & cry about the results of those "choices", without being willing to take responsibility for making them.

[beachbum]

62. "because I paid off all the credit cards and have some extra money"

Not alot, but enough to get by. And while I was in my early 30's then, I am in my early 40's then, I have had some raises, made better choices, and have grew up alot. Thats why.

[Beaker]

65. when i was in my 20's...

lotsof people i knew of the same age would always buy the cheapest food possible, so that they could have money to go out and party with, or to buy cigarettes, booze, or pot with, or to pay the cable tv bill...

that's what i mean by priorities-

decent food and a good diet should ALWAYS come ahead of ALL of those things.

[Mrs. Venation]

74. Not Everyone Has These Options, Beaker

Just because you do it you think everyone else has the same opportunity? Are you naive, or just so damned self-centered that you are oblivious to the lives of others?

[Beaker]

78. i apologize.

i always assumed that fresh fruit and vegetables were available nation-wide, year- round these days, and at lower prices than ever due to increased trade and the like...

silly me.

[Mrs. Venation]

88. Do You Feel A Need To Belittle Others?

Honestly, beaker, did I say that these things are not available? Not everyone has access to produce markets or other outlets that allow for prices that are lower than supermarkets. Also, some outlets do not accept food stamps; what are those people to do?

I don't think your apology is sincere, therefore, it is not accepted.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

90. I hope Beaker is younger than 25

because that kind of judgementalism would be scary in anyone more 'mature'...

[FlaGranny]

24. Funny, we were just talking

this evening about our grocery bill. Since we started losing a little weight, our grocery bill has increased by $40 a week. We bought chicken, turkey, asparagus, strawberries, etc. Then my husband mentioned how expensive it was and how he had noticed that poor folks were fat and rich folks were thin. Told him I'd noticed that years ago and figured out why by looking at the shopping carts of people using food stamps. If you are poor and want to keep your stomach full, you do it by buying as much food as you can for the lowest price. Hence, potatoes, macaroni, rice, white bread, cheap meats like hot dogs, bologna, and maybe a large box of Little Debbies for something sweet. $1.29 for a dozen Little Debbies goes a lot further than $1.29 worth of peaches (probably 2 peaches).

Speaking of food stamps, I wonder what happened to them. I haven't seen anyone use food stamps in quite a while.

P.S. I've found the produce section to be a fairly expensive part of the store - great healthy food, but not very cheap, and not very filling either.

[camero]

25. They have a smartcard for them now

I saw a family a couple of weeks ago using them and they used the cardreader.

[Beaker]

28. here in illinois- i don't think they use actual "food stamps" anymore-

I think that they use a debitcard-type of thing instead, but i could be wrong...
However- I've found that by buying my fruit/veggies at the produce store(and in a not so affluent neighborhood) I can save a lot over supermarkets, even on sale stuff- sometimes it's not as pretty, but many times it's actually more tasty.
and yes, stuff like strawberries and asparagus can be expensive- i only buy them on sale...BUT- there are plenty oftasty produce that's not as pricey. This week, oranges were on a huge sale, and there's always some kind of apples on sale.
we eat simply, but well, and it rarely takes me longer than 30 minutes, including prep time, to cook a meal.
I think that some of the socio-economic differences are also manifested in some people not knowing how and what to shop for.
and having kids they can't afford.

[sangh0]

49. We're not talking about not a "so affluent neighborhood"

We're talking about a poor one.

[Beaker]

56. that's what i was trying to say...

I shop at the produce store in the "poor" neighborhood...in the "not poor" neighborhood, the prices are higher, because they stock the same kind of "pretty" produce as the supermarkets.

[CO Liberal]

60. Who Died and Left YOU In Charge????

:shrug:

[Beaker]

64. when did i claim to be "in charge"?

i thought we were all entitled to our opinions...?

i take it you don't think so...?

[CO Liberal]

67. Come Down Off Your High Horse, Beaker

Your experiences have no bearing on what is going on in other people's lives. I'm glad that you have a responable-priced source for produce, but many people do not have that option. In most markets, the more economical foods are the ones with higher calories. And for some people (even though it may be harmful to them), food is just about the only enjoyment they can afford.

Sounds to me like you could use a better source for compassion for others......

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CO Liberal]

70. When You Post All These "Do as I Do' Messages, Beaker.....

...expect to be called on it.

[Beaker]

72. I never said "Do as I Do".

i relate my methods and experiences because so many people whine about how 'it can't be done', when i know damn well that it can...

just look at it as me calling them on it.

[CO Liberal]

92. We're Gonna Have to Agree to Disagree On This One

You view your posts as helpful - I view them as arrogant, condescending, sanctimonious, and pompous.

In the interest of DU tranquility, I'm not going to pursue this conversation any further.

[Philosophy]

31. I was in the best shape of my life when I was dead broke

While I was unemployed I ate almost nothing but peanut butter sandwiches for 6 straight months, while maintaining a moderate exercise routine. Ended up at about 170 pounds at 6'1", all muscle, with abs of steel. And my mind was as clear as it had ever been my whole life - I even started writing a novel.

Then I got a job working the night shift where they practically shovelled candy and soft drinks down our throats to keep us awake. Gained 20 pounds of spare tire in 6 months, and my overall health went south to where I had to call in sick like at least one day every other week.

Now that I have a normal, 9-5, well-paying job again, I'm trying to recreate my "dead broke diet", even though I have plenty of money.

[LWolf]

38. In spite

of your witty "bull fucking shit" response, I'll pop in here.

Allow me to share a story about when I began to have weight problems. I've fought the weight battle for 24 years now, sometimes winning, sometimes not.

I was 19 years old. I had an 18 month old son, a totally shiftless, undependable, and untrustworthy spouse, and was expecting again. I fixed that problem; the 2nd child was the last.

I had exactly one family member in the world, outside of my husband; my mother, who was renting a room from someone in a rockhouse at the back of a very isolated canyon, working just enough to pay the rent for that room, and taking herself back to college. She had very little in the way of resources to help at that point in my life.

I was raised on "poor people's food." As the only child of a mother who often worked 2 or 3 jobs to keep a roof over our heads, the idea was to buy stuff that would fill you up cheaply, so you didn't feel hungry all the time. Bread, potatoes, pasta, gravy, etc. Heavy, starchy stuff. Pretty common for the poor, and it packs on the pounds. I wasn't fat growing up; all of that extra kid energy to burn helped.

But at 19 with a baby in hand and one on the way, there was literally no food. I saw the spouse a few times a week, but he wasn't bringing home any cash. He was partying with it. When I say that he wasn't bringing home the cash, I mean it. The utilities were turned off, and I was washing diapers by hand in cold water in the damned bathtub. And knowing I would be evicted for non-payment of rent, and not knowing where to go. So I attended church pot lucks. At lots of churches. And potlucks of every sort at every place I could find them. I showed up everywhere I could conceivably get a free meal. Why? I needed to feed my 18 month old, and I was terrified that I was harming the unborn by not getting good enough nutrition. I didn't hold back; if I could eat too much today, I would, because I might not get to eat the next day. By the time I delivered that baby, I had gained 70 lbs. I lost about 20 with delivery, leaving me 50 lbs overweight. I've been fighting that 50 lbs ever since. I've lost as much as 40 of it several times; it always comes back.

We had years of not knowing where the next meal was coming from. It changes the psyche about food. And when I did know I'd be able to shop for food, I went right back to the childhood pattern of the heavy, starchy foods that would fill a belly even when there wasn't much to go around. It was always a matter of making sure that whatever we had would last until the next money came in.

Yes, I shopped for bargains, and yes, fresh fruits and vegetables were included. They just weren't the main items in the diet; those were what you could get the most of for the least.

So tell me; have you ever experienced going without meals, or not feeding kids, because there was no money to do so? If you had, you might have a better foundation to speak.

[Beaker]

39. like i said-

good nutritious food doesn't have to be expensive. some people are just more uninformed than others when it comes to knowing how and what to eat.
Did you ever check into the food stamp program?
or ask about food pantry programs at any of those churches that had the potluck dinners you went to?

and btw- i didn't choose your husband and child's father- you did.

[sangh0]

50. Yes, you keep saying it, but that's all you do

and "something someone said on the Internet" is not very persuasive.

Did you ever check into the food stamp program?


As has already been pointed out, Food Stamps don't cover a month's worth of food bills.

or ask about food pantry programs at any of those churches that had the potluck dinners you went to?

They don't supply a months worth of food, and right now, they are being overwhelmed and turning people away. This has been the situation for about the last three years

and btw- i didn't choose your husband and child's father- you did.

You helped choose the govt that fails to provide.

[Beaker]

57. "You helped choose the govt that fails to provide"

so did you then.

[LWolf]

84. That's right. I did.

Not a surprising choice, considering my background and family history.

No I did not check into the food stamp program. No, I did not check out food pantries. The ingrained "never take charity if you can survive without it" from my single working parent, who also never participated in food stamps or food pantries, was and is alive and well in my psyche. No, I was not uninformed.

You, in your 2 posts here, have exposed a vast ignorance about the choices and motivations of people whose life path is outside of your personal experience. If you haven't been there, you are not informed enough to pass judgement.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

47. You're wrong-good food IS expensive

You can get Ramen noodles and boxed mac 'n' cheese for 4/$1. Broccoli is $1.79-$2.49/LB. Lean boneless chicken or turkey is $4.99-$6.99/lb.

Try feeding a family of four on food stamps a healthy diet. I am unemployed, eat very healthily, but it is VERY difficult to buy fresh fruits, vegetables, and no-hormone meat and dairy on a budget. I thankfully only have to cook for two people, and I can imagine that if I had a family to feed, I would be forced to buy crappy food with preservatives and little nutritional value.

BTW a lot of people are insulin-resistant, and consumption of refined carbohydrates available in cheap food can cause health problems and obesity.

[Beaker]

61. "broccoli is $1.79-$2.49/lb..." "no-hormone meat & dairy"??

where the hell do you shop?
I bought broccoli on sale for 79 cents a lb. two weeks ago.

i always buy on sale.

frozen veggies are really cheap too-
very often for $1/lb., all varieties.

fresh spinach-$1.25/2 lbs. ON SALE.

at the produce store i go to they also have a rack of REALLY cheap stuff that might have a mushy spot or two that needs to be cut out- but you can get 4 green peppers for 60 cents.

and if you want to shop for specialty foods like "no-hormone meat & dairy", yes- you'll pay more- duh! I buy the regular meat and the regular milk(milk was $1.79 for a gallon of WHOLE milk last week)

i also buy meat close to the expiration date, when the store sells it for $1.00 or $2.00 off(off the already sale price). we had pork sirloin last night that cost less than $3.00 for 3 1/2 lbs.

"lean and boneless chicken or turkey"- of course it's more expensive than buying a whole fryer and doing it yourself.


you need to shop SMART.
and it can be done, because I DO.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

89. I live in Boston-the most EXPENSIVE supermarket prices in the country

I do shop smart-I am EXTREMELY frugal. Don't insult my intelligence, please. You are a judegmental one, aren't you?

Whole chicken is $1.69/lb on sale. I do buy that and make soup from the bones. Frozen vegetables (10 oz pkgs) were on sale the other day 4/$3. How does that work out to $1,25 for two lbs? You must live in some godforsaken backwater to get prices that cheap...

You just can't admit you're wrong about the affordability of crap food. BTW, Ramen noodles at my cheapie store were 4/$1.

[smirkymonkey]

69. Great post!! You have brought up

so many important factors influencing weight and health. It a very complicated issue, and it's much easier for people to judge than to understand.

[teryang]

14. This is a presumptuous argument

There is quite a bit of scientific evidence that overeating is related to deficiencies in neurotransmitters like serotonin. What is perceived as low esteem is actually the emotional reaction to the inability to control weight or appetite becuase you have a chemical imbalance in your neurological system, to which an adequate medical response has not yet been articulated. (The emotional reaction is also a possible result of serotonin deficiency)

I might have or develope low esteem if no matter what I tried I couldn't lose weight or reduce my baseline weight which met the BMI criteria for obesity. That doesn't mean my low esteem caused my obesity. In fact it is the opposite, just as any physical impairment might affect ones emotional state.

To develope or express a prejudice against persons afflicted in this manner is the height of ignorance. It is like the prejudice and stigma attached to mental illness.

[Beaker]

16. my wife and i both have/had self-esteem issues...

(but they were/are totally unrelated to weight, as we are both within 10% of our "ideal" weights) and we love and respect each other immensely- maybe moreso even, because we can empathize with what each other has gone thru to bring us to the point we are now- and our relationship has helped us both grow stronger...

btw- you seem to be asking two different questions- are you asking if we can respect people with low self-esteem, -or- are you asking if we can respect obese people? because the two are not necessarily intertwined- you can be thin or normal and still have low self-esteem, or you can be the biggest Blob of Fat around, and still have PLENTY of self-esteem.

I have a harder time having any respect for an obese person than i do for someone with low self-esteem...maybe because i've had problems with the latter and not the former. maybe it's because it seems to me that low self-esteem is usually a product of a troubled childhood, and perhaps no fault of the low self-esteemee- whereas obesity is more often the result of eating too much of the wrong kind of food, and usually self-inflicted..."in general, and in my own opinion"

[HEyHEY]

21. Judge the actions

I can tell you many people do great things with low self esteem. But because of their problem they don't realize it. I've met people with very low esteem that were terrific, smart people. When I heard them get down on themselves it didn't make me respect them less. It made me respect them more...because despite the low opinion of themselves they never gave up on life.

Had the given up on life..it'd be a different story.

[camero]

27. That's a good post

I think alot of times people mix up low self-esteem with humility. The humble person likes themselves, they just like other people more.

[pagerbear]

26. I find this question and much of this thread insulting

How DARE you make assumptions about my inner life, my emotional well being, my stability, my self discipline, even my intelligence based on the fact my body is a little different from that of every other guy in the crowd? What gives you that right? Is it your "normal" body? Your patronizing "concern" for us poor, unfortunate fat people? Your terrific inner life, emotional maturity, and self discipline? Please tell me--I want to understand how people like you think.

[Dogmudgeon]

30. Disrespect of the obese

It's bigotry.

Very simple. No analysis required.

Contempt = Bigotry.

The punishment for bigotry?

Heartburn. Misery. Self-destruction.

So, to all of you fatty-haters here, tell me -- what benefit do you get from your bigotry?

--bkl

[oldcoot]

82. The benefit

It is so much easier and more enjoyable to focus on other people's problems than it is to fix our own problems. For example, it is easier to ridicule that "fat cow" walking in the mall than it is to think about whether or not we really should be spending money on another pair of shoes. There is something comforting in this feeling of superiority.

As others have pointed out, one of the last acceptable prejudices is against fat people. Since their supposed "flaws" are visible to the rest of society, they make easy targets. We cannot tell from looking at a man whether or not he is a wife beater. We can possibly tell from looking at a fat man whether or not he might eat too much.

There also seems to be a puritanical component to this prejudice. One common criticism of fat people is that they is that they over indulge themselves. Obviously, if they were good people they would never overeat and they would always do the right amount of exercise. Of course, many fat people try to lose weight through exercise, diet, medication and surgery. We praise those who are successful and tell those who are not successful that they are not trying hard enough. What is wrong with them? Why can't they change?


Naturally, it is very difficult for anyone to change. How many of us break our New Year's resolutions every year? Clearly, more people should learn how to fix themselves before condemning other people for failing to conform to their standards.

[Scout]

86. Bravo!

:toast:

[Vernunft II]

32. I´m not overweight, I´m undertall

Garfield rocks :-)

[undergroundpanther]

33. Grrr

Some people can't afford nothing but ramen and pasta etc.Some people ain't got time to cook all day for those 5 or six small meals.

When I was poor,All I could afford was ramen pasta and crap basically.
I got a few bags of veggies things were a bit better when I could hit the farmers markets.BUT what you don't understand arrogant one is food stamps are supposed to last a WHOLE MONTH. and most folks get a whopping TEN bucks.
And also welfare/disability checks are not alot of money unlike what republicans claim,and often you have to pay rent also which takes most of it,and if you get stuck in the futile game of trying to find a job to "better your life " and 'be a productive member of this social Darwinist lie" well,you get to scrape by on even less money and you now have no time whatsoever.Busses are designed to transport the rich to 'cultural events'.So if you live in a crappy neighborhood you must transfer which can make a trip across town that takes 20 minutes by car take 2 hours..Cab fare who are you kiddin'?

I have PT SD.I decided because I felt bad being a "nobody" on the govt.dole to try to I claw myself off of disability to get a "better life".Unfortunately this attempt occurred during the Tech bubble.I took the damn classes.I started getting jobs ,I had bought a house ,not a huge place it was a small older house you know modest.


To be honest it was just miserable being a "success" worrying about bills that seemed to race up to match my income,so my standard of living changed but because of the costs of"success" I did not feel any more secure than I did before.In fact I felt a little more secure on the dole.I had nothing,but at least I knew I could buy pasta and exist..But stressing over the boss's demands for every minute of my waking life worrying me about his damn networks. To me his "business was like a huge virtual baby that needed tending at all hours and I was the nanny,who got paid shit while my job finder gouged the boss..making me "expendable".Making ends meet alone in a town where I knew no one,had no family was very hard..I had ,moved there chasing work,And of course when the tech bubble busted all that lonely "success" came crashing down on me.I found my stress relief in food.I didn't have time to make friends.Besides I had no time to cook and I was too tired to anyway. Soon it dawned on me I couldn't get work again if I wanted to and fat chance I could just move to India where the jobs are. I still had to pay a 15,000 taxes because the employer exploiting me was to lazy and didn't want to bother to take out taxes,from the paychecks(and 700 bucks unemployment didn't cover the mortgage.So I sold the house...that is where the money selling the house went to pay to pay fucking bush so he can kill people and steal their oil and try to turn this country into a theocracy.I would rather fund a social safety net for everyone.But no I have no say in what these robber barons do with my money.I'm back to having nothing.Plus now I have no more insurance.The stress of all this "success" crap almost killed me .I now live in my mom's basement.
I have insomnia and nightmares depression... the works. And I am very unhappy and I am very very jaded. Fuck the whore bitch everyone worships as if it'll save their ass from rich exploiting jerks ...called "success". If Horatio Alger was real and not a myth I'd be out to get him.



I am fat, fat because of a lifetime of stress in this environment of normalized cultural insanity,the stupidity of authoritarians,bullies,past abuse,cultural oppression,and because of poverty and all the emotional misery this causes and attempts however misguided or addictive to find comfort and relief from it..I seek to be in a place very different than this where people who care about me do more than move their mouths,A society where I can care about others,where people live and let live and life is cherished, and we can support each other without feeling we are going to be shafted for caring.Something more communal and honest than this piece of shit free market joke..

Have you ever wanted to kill yourself because "success" was driving you crazy? Ever have the injustice of it all bite your heart because people are so damn stupid selfish and or deluded in this INSANE fucking' culture? Ever get sick of the lies of haves who think they are so superior to have nots,thinnies who think think they are so morally superior compared to fatties? But still humanity can't figure out what real wealth and security is and that it belongs to all people.Security comes in the form of a well funded social safety net to take care of everyone equally in vulnerable times and not so vulnerable times.When basics are taken care of and the bullies,greedos ,bigots and authoritarians of any stripe are told where to stick it,and denied power,we all can bloom in a billion different ways if we decided to and started sharing and building lasting security through supporting each other..

We all could love life. How much better quality would every life be if we'd be honest enough as a culture to admit we all need food,shelter warmth etc? What if we decided to QUIT letting a few profiting off necessities of existence all need and instead shared it with all? So why let a landlord oppress you financially for the fact you need a place to exist? This is sick! This culture is NUTS!This cultural accepted inequality of access to the necessities of life creates insecurity competition strife and wars.
Success is only success because it requires someone else to be deprived.


So don't tell me platitudes about my 'weak' willpower.Will is NOT all it takes to lose weight or succeed.Don't give me crap about "self esteem." I have been through enough abuse,stress and bullshit outta the likes of arrogant greedy self important fools talking outta their ass that would drive some people to kill themselves if they had to live through it.
I have self esteem so I don't suffer fools or bullies.

Frankly I am lucky to survive through this human created bullshit and muddle through what this damn crazy culture tells people to do with their lives with only this obesity to worry about.

What I worry about is what happens when the American dream dies for the true believers. Believe me the greedy want it all. The poor will be consumed first.and the middle class one step away from poverty will cling to the notion of class as if that will save them from failure quite beyond their control,unless they join a union or something nothing will stop the rich..

[MercutioATC]

34. My divorce attorney was the size of a small mountain.

I've never met anybody who's ability to be calm and result-driven I've respected more. He is honestly one of the good ones.

[Pithlet]

77. But, didn't you know?

A person's worth is directly measured by the food they eat, and how much they weigh?

I'm sorry for being sarcastic, but a couple of posts here by others have really bothered me.

[MercutioATC]

91. Hey...I know the problem exists..I just try to look beyond physical issues

...like all of us, sometimes I fail, but I do try.

[Spider Jerusalem]

35. Self-esteem has nothing to do with it.

The high rate of obesity in this country can be traced to several causes; I think that most important among them is the fact that most Americans simply don't have TIME to eat and exercise properly. The average American now works something like sixty hours a week, I've read...which means most people are generally a bit too tired to exercise, or to take the time to cook. Hard to eat properly when all you really have time to do is throw something in the microwave or get take-out, and hard to exercise when all you really want to do at the end of the day is rest...it's really not so much a question of "low self esteem" or "poor lifestyle choices" as it is a question of a lifestyle which is to some extent forced by the cold economic realities of the way we live in this country, and lack of real (read: healthful) variety in food which is both quick and simple.

At least that's the way I see it.

[Beaker]

41. i have a friend who has two kids-

he and his wife both work two jobs during the week...on Sunday, he spends a couple hours cooking/preparing meals for the week, and puts the stuff in the frig...then they have decent meals that just take a little finalization in order to put on the table.
it's not a hard thing to do...it just takes a little initiative and discipline- something apparently lacking in many MANY american households.

[FlaGranny]

42. Initiative and discipline?

That sounds so rigid and judgmental. It takes lots of initiative and discipline to begin to work full time at age 17 and work until you're old, put your kids through college, clean your home, take care of your yard, pay your bills on time, vote, etc., etc., etc. Are you suggesting that people who do all that lack initiative and discipline because they gained weight while doing those things?

[Beaker]

43. possibly

it doesn't always take "lots" of initiative and discipline to hold down a job...and my friend does all the things you mention, and still puts decent meals on the table for his kids.
"Lots" of people do.
why is it so hard for so many others?

well, lack of discipline and initiative is definitely a big part of the story for "lots" of them.

[Name removed]

75. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Beaker]

80. gee- isn't that what i'm trying to do???

"How about using the obvious intelligence you have to assist other people..."

i'm trying to "assist other people" by explaining that it is possible to eat well inexpensively. all it takes is some initiative and smart shopping.


sheesh.

[koopie57]

54. You have friends?

I think people do their best. Some have more abilities to be organized, some are kinder than others, some can eat anything and not gain weight, some are skinny cuz they throw up in secret, some are fat cuz that it the way things are today. How many illnesses and suicides, sadness, depression are caused cuz people are too pig-headed to look inside and care about the person. Look at the good people do, encourage them to accomplish what they feel is important to them. Why is it worse for someone to die of obesity than from drugs, or cigarette smoking? Just stop and think before you start judging. Maybe, if your shortcomings are not noticeable, put a sign around your neck so remind yourself you are not perfect.

on edit....I didn't mean to sound so harsh and my frustration was not simply directed at you. :hi:

[Beaker]

81. only thin ones.

[supernova]

40. People with no/low self-esteem need more respect

than those with a healthy ego.

Praise or a compliment means so very much more to a person who is down than to someone for whom happy moments are a dime a dozen.

I try to praise everyone I come across who could use a kind word, that includes an obese person who may not get around so well. You don't know what their life is like. You can either be a good interaction or a bad interaction during their day. You decide.

[buddhamama]

44. i reject the premise

(not made by you in this post) that if you are overweight you don't respect yourself. don't know who came up with that bit of psychoananlysis but i think it is hooey. is it possible that overweight people might actually respect themselves more? they have accepted who they are, comfortable in their own skin and, will not allow society to dictate how they should look, think or feel.


i can respect people with low self-esteem, assuming they in fact do have low self-esteem. we assume too much about others sometimes.

i,myself,suffer from low self-esteem but i am able to respect myself and others.

[Scout]

51. will not allow society to dictate how they should look, think or feel

excellent point!

it is quite possible to be "fat and fit" ... too many ignorant bigots just see someone who doesn't fit the BMI index of ideal body weight and assume they are some weak, ignorant, lazy slob who just doesn't care about themselves.

I used to work with two very thin women ... one had horrible eating habits (a pop, a bag of chips and a candy bar for lunch) but smoked like a freakin' chimney. Gee, do you think her nicotine addiction had anything to do with her body shape? The other woman, used to illustrate the depth of fat prejudice/ignorance, wouldn't quit smoking because she was afraid she'd get fat. I told her that seemed kind of silly, once she quit smoking she could lose the weight, she could never grow new lungs. She told me "I'd rather have cancer than be fat." I told her I hoped she got her wish.

[Lindsey]

52. I don't think that all people who are overweight have low

self-esteem. There are medical, genetic and many other reasons why people get into that situation. My boss is overweight and we all totally respect her and adore her. She's a wonderful person and the fact that's she's overweight is HER business. She does an incredible job and none of us would trade her for the world. I think that people who treat other people horribly (for example, I've had other bosses who were attractive and were borderline evil) should not be respected.

[Scout]

53. More than I can some other people

Like people who are arrogant, self-absorbed, judgemental, bigotted, and/or with too much self-esteem.

[Lars39]

83. Very well said.

Thank you for voicing what would have surely earned me a mod warning, had I posted my thoughts.
:thumbsup:

[Scout]

85. you're welcome

but not sure why you'd get a mod warning if I didn't...

:hi:

[Fight_n_back]

59. Great points

People are very complicated and can have all measure of self respect about different parts of themselves.

We currently value fitness but it wasn't always and won't always be so.

People just kind of choose what parts of themselves to focus on.

[bleedingheart]

63. I don't judge people by appearances.

I judge them by their actions.

[Bunny]

73. And their words.

People's words really open the window to their soul, don't they?

It's unfortunate that there seem to be so many troubled souls here, where you'd least expect to see it.

[JoeKSimmons]

87. Here are some helpful words...

http://web.jadeinc.com/bigbeautifulpeople/grow.htm

Growing Up An FA
By Wayne E. Zitkus

Most of us remember the major events in our lives, such as what we were doing
when we heard about the O. J. Verdict, the Challenger explosion, or the
Kennedy assassinations. I have another vivid memory, one that I'm sure I
share with many of you - the memory of the day I realized that I was an FA.

I don't remember the exact day, but I do know it was sometime in December of
1962. I was attending Collinsville Elementary School in Morris Township NJ.
I was in the Fourth Grade Chorus, and we were practicing Christmas songs. I
was standing in the back - I was tall for my age back then, and tall kids had
to stand in the back. I happened to look down at the girl standing in front
of me, and suddenly I realized that she was different from all the other
girls. Where all the other girls' bodies were straight up and down, this
girl had curves - she had hips - her calves weren't the same diameter all the
way to her knees! I wasn't sure exactly what I was feeling inside, because I
was only 10 years old and this was all new to me. But I knew that I liked
what I saw.

...

So if you're an FA, don't be ashamed - be proud!! You are a member of a very
exclusive brotherhood of men who refuses to subscribe to the thin-as-a-rail
mandates imposed by today's diet-conscious society. Hold your head up high,
go out and find the woman of your dreams, and don't allow the opinions of
others to bog you down.