how do fundies explain this?

[ButterflyBlood]

this just confounds me. I don't understand how anyone, even the most hardcore fundie could believe this.

the literal Creation story as 6 days meaning 6 24 hour periods.

This makes NO SENSE at all. the reason is simple, the length of a day comes from the time it takes for the Earth to revolve. Therefore, the 24 hour period is absolutely useless before the existance of the Earth, and is even more useless to someone who does not exist on Earth (like God).

So has anyone heard an explanation from fundies on why God would create the universe in 6 24 hour periods?

[saltpoint]

1. He timed it to correspond to the donut cycle at --

-- Dunkin' Donuts. That's what I heard, anyway.

[I AM SPARTACUS]

13. but...what makes a donut...circle, cycle, hole, or baker...???

oh, sorry, that's awfully Taoist for a fundie thread...

[saltpoint]

14. : )

[Occulus]

2. Their answer,

of course, is that God knew the rate of rotation in advance and, if you believe in the concept of an omnipotent, all-knowing, all-seeing God, then yes, that's a valid answer. :)

But here's one that usually stumps 'em:

Can God create a rock He cannot lift?

[kiahzero]

26. No, but it's not a real paradox

It's just a rhetorical paradox. He can lift a rock of infinite size, and he can lift any rock that exists.

[Fenris]

3. Fundie response

God's "day" is not the same as the human concept of a "day."

Or the time of creation was divided into six epochs, twenty four hours a piece. At the time of the creation of the Earth, the earth began to revolve, and keeping with the time signature God began with, its revolution completed twenty four hours later.

It makes absolutely no sense, yes, but we aren't of that rare breed.

[TrogL]

23. I've never heard that from a fundie

Typical fundies go for the immultable 24.00-hour day. They have trouble understanding leap years.

[Zookeeper]

4. Since when...

have the fundies been noted for their logic? It would never occur to me to ask them for a rational explanation for anything.

[Fenris]

5. Actually the fundies are quite logical in their arguments

By which I mean, that educated creationists can argue their point well, but they are still wrong.

[Az]

15. Persistance is not logic

In most of the debates I have engaged in with various creationists the reigning tactic seems to be one of persistance rather than logic. The entropy argument is a classic example. They trot this one out like clockwork. They argue that life arising violates the entropy law by increasing the order in the system. When it is pointed out that the earth is not a closed system they back away. But then the next time they argue they trot it back out again.

The creationist argument is built on the fact that the bulk of followers are not scientists with an understanding of the scientific process or even a deep interest in science. They are simply not well versed or exposed to science. Thus when a scientific argument comes flying at them from someone denying their beliefs they quickly lose interest in it.

All a creationist has to do to win an argument is pose a question a scientist will have to go to extremes to answer. The more complex the answer the more audience members science loses. The creationist comes off looking like a scientific marvel for facing done another scientist. The fact that he got his head handed to him is lost on the audience.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

[everythingsxen]

6. I once knew a nice little Baptist girl...

She told me there was no such thing as dinosaurs.

There are no dinosaurs in the Bible she exclaimed. Thus it was all a conspiracy by Darwinian scientists who were trying to denounce Gawd's existence. :eyes:

I took her to a museum. It's all fake she told me.

Eventually, she came to see the light. :party:

[Fenris]

7. They're called Jesus Horses, everythingsxen

Je-sus Hor-ses! Not dinosaurs. That's a Satanic word! And it's blasphemous!

[regnaD kciN]

10. She wasn't very creative...

...a late friend of mine grew up Baptist, and says he heard the argument that the "fossil record" is there, all right -- it was planted there by God late on the fifth day as a test for humankind, to see who would have faith in the Word of God even when the physical evidence seemed to point in the other direction.

:crazy:

Of course, not all devotees of the Six-Day Creation are fundamentalist Christian. Somewhere in my collection, I have a book by an Israeli scientist (ultra-Orthodox, I believe) who also feels committed to a literal reading of the first chapter of Genesis, and reconciles it by claiming that it's all a matter of relativity...a time period that appears to God to be a 24-hour day appears to us to be billions of years. It sounds like a neat argument, except that my Baptist friend above did some quick mathematical analysis, and declared that, for it to work, God would have to be continuously travelling at a speed that effectively placed him in around 99.7% of the entire universe at all times.

[shimmergal]

17. Ah, but there _are_ unicorns and dragons in the Bible.

As a fantasy fan I think this is way neat.

However, I don't know how some fundies square this with their refusal to let their children read fantasy stories.

Go figure!

[everythingsxen]

18. I will admit it has been a while..

Since I read *shudder* that book... :scared:

Where exactly is there a reference to unicorns and dragons?

[DieboldMustDie]

8. In chapter 1 of Genesis...

God first creates plants, then animals, and finally man & woman.   In chapter 2 he first creates man, then plants, then animals, and finally, as something of an afterthought, he does the Adam's rib trick and creates woman.   Which of these accounts is the "literally true" one?

[regnaD kciN]

12. Neither...

The two accounts came from two different traditions, existing in oral form long before the actual Torah was redacted into a single written thread.

Biblical scholars, from linguistic analysis of the Pentateuch, have developed the "documentary hypothesis" of four specific threads, each identified by a capital letter. The "J" thread is so called because it uses the tetragrammaton (transliterated into English as "JHVH") as the name of God. The "E" thread uses "Elohim" for God's name. The "P" (for "priestly") thread came later, and is identified by a world-view which sees patterns for later religious practices everywhere in ancient events. Finally, the "D" (for "Deuteronomic") thread covers most of the book of Deuteronomy (as well as parts of later books such as Joshua), and is highly concerned with the Jewish people maintaining their unique identity, distinct from the neighboring gentiles (which is one reason why scholars suggest it emerged fairly late, possibly during the Babylonian exile, when pressures to abandon Judaism and its distinctive practices were high).

Given all that, the first chapter of Genesis is considered to be the P-thread creation story. Note how creation is divided into six days followed by a day of rest, fitting the pattern of Sabbath. Notice also how the moon and the sun are created for the specific purpose of helping us determine times of religious festivals.

The second chapter is considerd to be the creation story from the J-thread, and probably came a lot earlier than the P creation story. The story itself seems to have been based on an earlier non-Jewish creation myth, with the difference that, in the earlier version, the "Adam" and "Eve" figures had the capability to achieve godhood, but managed to lose the object (can't remember what it was) that would have conveyed it to them. By contrast, the version in the Torah retells the story to add a lesson: the first humans fall due to a moral failing -- the prideful desire to become gods themselves -- rather than out of simple carelessness.

[izzie]

9. Well you must be reading on FR

I do not think all Christians think a day is 24 hrs so many think that the 7 days could be just a figure of speech. It could mean 7 stages. The Bible has been re-wrote many times by different people and words do not mean the same thing.The Koran is said to be pure as it is the same as it started out. Most of us read King James or re-form and one is from this age and one from the 1600's so that mean their are a lot of other Bibles around and been around. You can be Christian and believe in Darwin.

[ButterflyBlood]

19. I am a Christian

and I don't believe in the literal Creation story. But most fundies seem to.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

25. This is the Fundie Dilemma.

They have to defend EVERY single little thing in the Bible, because to them it is literally God's Word. As the Bible is fairly contradictory (like almost every other book) in places, this leads to some pretty major logic-knots that they get stuck in, but for a fundie, if you accept one mistake, the Bible is no longer literal, and their entire worldview comes crashing down on them.
Fundies at heart believe in the Letter not the Spirit. They are full of the doctrine, but very little of the real faith. Reasonable Christians believe in the spirit of God and Christ, rather than the strict dogma, and I for one are glad to have them around.

[DrWeird]

11. More than, the sun wasn't created until the 3rd or 4th day.

So then what defines a day.

Of course if you interpret the Bible literally, the world is flat and pi equals three. And slavery is good, as is animal sacrifice.

But of course the Bible logically contradicts itself in numerous places, so anybody who says they believe in the literal interpretation is either lying, stupid, or has not actually read the thing.

[TXlib]

16. The ancient hebrew word for 'day' had two meanings

One is the 24-hour period as we use it today.

The other was 'an unspecified interval of time'.

I think the original writer intended the latter meaning.

[Liberal Christian]

20. This is what my father told me

Dad became a conservative, literalist, pentecostal, evangelical (all slightly different modifiers) Christian when he was in his late 40s. He changed from a belief in evolution as a process from which God was not absent to a belief in the creation story as related in Genesis.

He told me that he had been taught in his church at the time (he went to a few different ones after he converted and before he died) that the reason the earth can't be millions of years old and the reason evolution can't be true is that if you believe in the theology of Genesis, there can have been no death before the Fall of Adam and Eve. Therefore, no species can have gone extinct before human being entered the scene.

I'm not saying that this is a commonly-held Christian understanding of the creation/evolution debate and I am NOT endorsing this view. The original poster asked why people can think this and I'm simply reporting that this is why my father came to believe this.

Since he's dead, he's not likely to be convinced of the error of his ways, so there's no need for anyone here to jump in and say how stupid he was.

(edited for spelling error)

[geniph]

21. There's no reason an omnipotent Creator

would have to have 24-hour days. A day to a god could be millenia to us.

Or, more likely, it's a mistranslation.

[GreenPartyVoter]

22. They don't require logic, only faith

(Said the gal who believes in theistic evolution. *l*)

http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/liberalchristians.htm

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

24. Explained by Twain....

The Creator sat upon the throne, thinking. Behind him stretched the illimitable continent of heaven, steeped in a glory of light and color; before him rose the black night of Space, like a wall. His mighty bulk towered rugged and mountain-like into the zenith, and His divine head blazed there like a distant sun. At His feet stood three colossal figures, diminished to extinction, almost, by contrast -- archangels -- their heads level with His ankle-bone.

When the Creator had finished thinking, He said, "I have thought. Behold!"

He lifted His hand, and from it burst a fountain-spray of fire, a million stupendous suns, which clove the blackness and soared, away and away and away, diminishing in magnitude and intensity as they pierced the far frontiers of Space, until at last they were but as diamond nailheads sparkling under the domed vast roof of the universe.

At the end of an hour the Grand Council was dismissed.

They left the Presence impressed and thoughtful, and retired to a private place, where they might talk with freedom. None of the three seemed to want to begin, though all wanted somebody to do it. Each was burning to discuss the great event, but would prefer not to commit himself till he should know how the others regarded it. So there was some aimless and halting conversation about matters of no consequence, and this dragged tediously along, arriving nowhere, until at last the archangel Satan gathered his courage together -- of which he had a very good supply -- and broke ground. He said: "We know what we are here to talk about, my lords, and we may as well put pretense aside, and begin. If this is the opinion of the Council -- "

"It is, it is!" said Gabriel and Michael, gratefully interrupting.

"Very well, then, let us proceed. We have witnessed a wonderful thing; as to that, we are necessarily agreed. As to the value of it -- if it has any -- that is a matter which does not personally concern us. We can have as many opinions about it as we like, and that is our limit. We have no vote. I think Space was well enough, just as it was, and useful, too. Cold and dark -- a restful place, now and then, after a season of the overdelicate climate and trying splendors of heaven. But these are details of no considerable moment; the new feature, the immense feature, is -- what, gentlemen?"

"The invention and introduction of automatic, unsupervised, self-regulating law for the government of those myriads of whirling and racing suns and worlds!"

"That is it!" said Satan. "You perceive that it is a stupendous idea. Nothing approaching it has been evolved from the Master Intellect before. Law -- Automatic Law -- exact and unvarying Law -- requiring no watching, no correcting, no readjusting while the eternities endure! He said those countless vast bodies would plunge through the wastes of Space ages and ages, at unimaginable speed, around stupendous orbits, yet never collide, and never lengthen nor shorten their orbital periods by so much as the hundredth part of a second in two thousand years! That is the new miracle, and the greatest of all -- Automatic Law! And He gave it a name -- the LAW OF NATURE -- and said Natural Law is the LAW OF GOD -- interchangeable names for one and the same thing."

"Yes," said Michael, "and He said He would establish Natural Law -- the Law of God -- throughout His dominions, and its authority should be supreme and inviolable."

"Also," said Gabriel, "He said He would by and by create animals, and place them, likewise, under the authority of that Law."

"Yes," said Satan, "I heard Him, but did not understand. What is animals, Gabriel?"

"Ah, how should I know? How should any of us know? It is a new word."



"My lords, He is making animals. Will it please you to come and see?"

They went, they saw, and were perplexed. Deeply perplexed -- and the Creator noticed it, and said, "Ask. I will answer."

"Divine One," said Satan, making obeisance, "what are they for?"

"They are an experiment in Morals and Conduct. Observe them, and be instructed."

There were thousands of them. They were full of activities. Busy, all busy -- mainly in persecuting each other. Satan remarked -- after examining one of them through a powerful microscope: "This large beast is killing weaker animals, Divine One."

"The tiger -- yes. The law of his nature is ferocity. The law of his nature is the Law of God. He cannot disobey it."

"Then in obeying it he commits no offense, Divine One?"

"No, he is blameless."

"This other creature, here, is timid, Divine One, and suffers death without resisting."

"The rabbit -- yes. He is without courage. It is the law of his nature -- the Law of God. He must obey it."

"Then he cannot honorably be required to go counter to his nature and resist, Divine One?"

"No. No creature can be honorably required to go counter to the law of his nature -- the Law of God."

After a long time and many questions, Satan said, "The spider kills the fly, and eats it; the bird kills the spider and eats it; the wildcat kills the goose; the -- well, they all kill each other. It is murder all along the line. Here are countless multitudes of creatures, and they all kill, kill, kill, they are all murderers. And they are not to blame, Divine One?"

"They are not to blame. It is the law of their nature. And always the law of nature is the Law of God. Now -- observe -- behold! A new creature -- and the masterpiece -- Man!"

Men, women, children, they came swarming in flocks, in droves, in millions.

"What shall you do with them, Divine One?"

"Put into each individual, in differing shades and degrees, all the various Moral Qualities, in mass, that have been distributed, a single distinguishing characteristic at a time, among the nonspeaking animal world -- courage, cowardice, ferocity, gentleness, fairness, justice, cunning, treachery, magnanimity, cruelty, malice, malignity, lust, mercy, pity, purity, selfishness, sweetness, honor, love, hate, baseness, nobility, loyalty, falsity, veracity, untruthfulness -- each human being shall have all of these in him, and they will constitute his nature. In some, there will be high and fine characteristics which will submerge the evil ones, and those will be called good men; in others the evil characteristics will have dominion, and those will be called bad men. Observe -- behold -- they vanish!"

"Whither are they gone, Divine One?"

"To the earth -- they and all their fellow animals."

"What is the earth?"

"A small globe I made, a time, two times and a half ago. You saw it, but did not notice it in the explosion of worlds and suns that sprayed from my hand. Man is an experiment, the other animals are another experiment. Time will show whether they were worth the trouble. The exhibition is over; you may take your leave, my lords."

Several days passed by.

This stands for a long stretch of (our) time, since in heaven a day is as a thousand years.

Satan had been making admiring remarks about certain of the Creator's sparkling industries -- remarks which, being read between the lines, were sarcasms. He had made them confidentially to his safe friends the other archangels, but they had been overheard by some ordinary angels and reported at Headquarters.

He was ordered into banishment for a day -- the celestial day. It was a punishment he was used to, on account of his too flexible tongue. Formerly he had been deported into Space, there being nowhither else to send him, and had flapped tediously around there in the eternal night and the Arctic chill; but now it occurred to him to push on and hunt up the earth and see how the Human Race experiment was coming along.

By and by he wrote home -- very privately -- to St. Michael and St. Gabriel about it.