Star Trek Deep Space Nine Was the BEST Trek series

[Pryderi]

non-pariel!

[flvegan]

1. Oh ye gods but I hope this becomes a flamewar.

:popcorn:

[kentauros]

10. Yeah, considering that Paramount or Columbia or whoever

owns the Star Trek franchise stole the idea from JMS when he was shopping around for someone to produce his Babylon 5 series ;)

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0105946/trivia

[pokerfan]

30. When you consider that DS9 was the most un-Trek-like show of the franchise

I guess it must have just been coincidence that...

Both series were set aboard space stations which were hubs of interstellar trade and politics.

Both stations were located beside portals to distant places. (B5 guarded a hyperspace "jumpgate"; DS9 guarded the mouth of a wormhole.)

The person in command of each station lost his wife when he confronted a powerful enemy.

The commander of each station eventually became a religious figure, advised by enigmatic aliens who were regarded as spiritual beings.

The second-in-command of each station was a woman with a hot temper who had lost a family member in a war.

Central to each series were two alien races, one of which had until recently occupied and oppressed the home planet of the other. The oppressed race was a deeply religious one. The oppressors in both series were later manipulated by a mysterious alien race to achieve its goals; the plot of each series eventually centered around a war against the oppressors and those who manipulated them.

Both shows involved combat against mysterious foes who seemed much more powerful than the protagonists: The Dominion on Deep Space Nine and the Shadows on Babylon 5.

Each series added a small, tough starship, each the first of its kind, during the third season: DS9's Defiant and B5's White Star.

Both shows featured doctors who had strained relations with their fathers and who were hiding secrets: Julian Bashir's genetic modification on Deep Space Nine and Stephen Franklin's involvement with the underground and his stim addiction on Babylon 5.

Each series includes a sinister organization working within the humans' government: DS9's Section 31 and B5's Psi Corps and Bureau 13.

Each series had a male character named "Dukat" (though B5's is spelt "Dukhat") and each series had a female character named "Lyta" (although DS9's is spelt "Leeta").

[kentauros]

35. Didn't JMS drop off his "B5 Bible" to Paramount

only for them to reject it (likely after they had photocopied the whole thing and got their staff of cheap writers on it changing all the "obvious" ideas)?

And yet, they did typical "cheap-writer" tricks. Other than the almost letter for letter names, this stood out boldly: "Section 31" / "Bureau 13". Man, if they had hired me to change things, the least I could have done was to change names and plotlines drastically. Show off your imagination! Unless Paramount wanted to make it sound so similar that the fans would automatically diss B5 for "copying" Deep Space Nein. And they did just that.

[pokerfan]

43. Even the titles of the two series

Nine instead of Five. Completely different. As for giving them copies of the story bible, I think that's pretty much what you do when you're shopping a story around. He gave them the bible, the pilot script, artwork, character histories and plot synopses for the first season. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Space_Nine#Babylon_5_influence"><wiki>

Paramount told him that they loved the idea but couldn't really see a way to fit it into the Trek universe. Guess they figured out a way to do it. :eyes:

[kentauros]

44. I didn't realize he was trying to fit it into the Trek universe.

I had always thought it was to be what it became: A stand-alone new sci-fi series.

And you're right about the bible; I just forgot that detail :)

It's too bad there isn't a way of copyrighting concepts. I'm sure Paramount had their lawyers go over it all before they started up.

[pokerfan]

46. Well, that's just it, isn't it?

They certainly made enough changes to avoid a copyright charge sticking.

But you see that all the time. For example when two historical Scot films were released in the same year: Braveheart and Rob Roy. And that spate of Mars movies a while back. Cribbing from each other is just what studios do.

I doubt that JMS presented it as part of the Trek universe. It was probably more a matter of Paramount wanting something that they could shoehorn into an already existing (an popular) franchise. Starting a series from scratch is risky and Trek is nothing if not risk-averse.

[kentauros]

48. That's true about studios being risk-adverse.

Just look how much TNT tried to change B5 to what their audiences watched

What do you think of JMS writing the remake of Forbidden Planet?
I don't know what to think, but I could always tell he loved the concept of the movie, since he included the "big machine" in B5 ;)

The biggest problem for me with a remake of Forbidden Planet is the subesquent ruining of the soundtrack. That soundtrack is so unique and just perfect to that movie. Kind of like the harshness that Evan Chen created for Crusade. Too bad so many fans used to either Franke or Star Trek-style "orchestral" music never seemed to remember that Forbidden Planet inspired all of their favorite sci-fi shows, other than through the music and sound effects. I have always thought Chen's musical realization for Crusade was brilliant and gave the show that much more of an edge.

Image a Star Trek series with that kind of a harsh, edgy soundtrack. Heads would be 'splodin' everywhere! ;)

[pokerfan]

51. I'm not a fan of remaking the classics

but if someone has to do it it might as well be JMS I guess.

[kentauros]

59. I'm not a fan of remakes either.

Only a handful have been successful, such as The Addams Family. Raul Julia was the best of the Addams :D

I'm just not looking forward to it for whatever they pick for the soundtrack and sound-effects. The "electronic tonalities" made Forbidden Planet that much more unique. Today's audiences probably wouldn't know how to react to such "musique concrete" as a soundtrack, other than the obvious disdain. They still don't know what to make of the choices of music Kubrick used in 2001.

[chknltl]

68. Great Link! bookmarked thanks nt

[DarkTirade]

2. Pfft. They didn't even resort to stupid gimmicks like hiring really hot actors.

How can that be the best one? :P

[Deja Q]

3. "Space: 1999" had far more in terms of metaphysical enjoyment... more accurate in physics too

And that's not easy to say...

[edbermac]

4. Second best. TNG was the best.

Ranked:

TNG
DS9
TOS
Voyager
Enterprise, which totally sucked ass.

[Pryderi]

6. Ranked:

DS9
TNG
TOS
Voyager
Enterprise, which sucked more ass than a donkey vacuum.

[Orrex]

5. DS9 had two good characters, and that's it

Sisko and Kira weren't either of them.

[Pryderi]

9. Odo and Quark?

[petronius]

25. And Jake and Garak and Dukat

I won't add O'Brian and Worf and Gowron because they could be claimed by another series...

[WildEyedLiberal]

28. Yeah, DS9 definitely had the best villains

Now, the Borg are a cool villain race, to give TNG due credit, but in terms of single characters, Dukat easily beats any other recurring villain in Trek history. He was complex - at times sympathetic, at times utterly repulsive, but always fascinating.

[kentauros]

39. I don't know, for human villains, this former Star Trek actor did a great job in B5:

And the Shadows were nightmare material:






I'm including this because of the afforementioned "similarities" between Deep Space Nine and Babylon 5.
The shows are just too similar to ignore the other ;)

[WildEyedLiberal]

40. I do wish I'd watched B5

Never seen an episode. I'm sure I'd like it.

[kentauros]

42. Because of that 5-year story arc,

you really have to start from the beginning. The first season is kind of rough, but that's true for most sci-fi shows. It does get better, a lot better. I would think Netflix would have it, so try renting it. There were a few made-for-TV movies, too, that help with the overall story. I'm not sure the order that is recommended for interspersing them, but it's out there somewhere.

Wiki has an excellent entry for B5 if you want to read up on it first :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylon_5

I'm open to many sci-fi shows, even Voyager ;) though I thought the ending was just a little too abrupt. Others, I give a chance and still can't get into them. I think Babylon 5 offers enough for most audiences to draw them in and keep 'em :)

[pokerfan]

47. When you do watch it

Bookmark this site: http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/universe/intro.html

It's an episode guide for the entire series. It was a work in progress when the series was airing and was indispensable in helping to keep track of everything.

[tigereye]

70. it's amazing. you should definitely check it out if you can

[tigereye]

71. Garak is a great character- he grew to be one of my favorites

[TZ]

7. TNG was the best in my book

But I thought DS9 was interesting. Much darker than the rest of the series thats for sure.

[pokerfan]

23. DS9 was darker

because it ripped off Babylon 5.

[Pacifist Patriot]

41. I have to side with you.

I was hooked by the original series, but absorbed by TNG.

I watched DS9 for a season and a half maybe, but then got distracted.

Watched the one with Janeway(?) for a few years, but then got distracted.

Wanted to watch the one with Scott Bacula simply because I adore him...but got distracted.

[Deep13]

8. huh

[Bake]

17. Indeed! Kirk ROCKS with awesomeness.

Bake

[crimsonblue]

11. Star Trek blows. n/t

[charlie and algernon]

12. It has the best theme song

I love Jerry Goldsmith's work he did for this.

[LeftyMom]

13. You are correct, sir.

[Tikki]

14. It was certainly the most interesting...

Tikki

[LeftyMom]

15. I like stories where people have complex motivations

On TNG, and TOS to a lesser extent, people are evil or good because they are, and almost never have any significant backstory or apparent interplay of goals and interests.

[DarkTirade]

16. That, and there were a lot of premises that were just as if not more silly than TOS.

Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra! :P

[LeftyMom]

18. That was at least an interesting new idea.

The Universal Translator had really come to be taken for granted.

Sure, they could have done another "Primitive people who do not want contact with advanced civilizations have a rare resource we need, and we have to convince them to get it" episode (I swear, 3/4 of Enterprise missions were either arranging for mining rights or transporting cranky diplomats with wacky results) but it was a different, interesting spin on a first contact story.

[cemaphonic]

20. I'm pretty sure they swiped that idea from Gene Wolfe's "Book of the New Sun"

That version was even more interesting because not only did the civilization speak entirely in metaphorical references, all of the references in question came from a source that was pretty obviously based on Chairman Mao's Little Red Book.

It was a great episode though. One of the best ones they did.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

19. Well, that's really not saying much.

:shrug:

[jrandom421]

21. And it had the most thought provoking episode in Trek

6th Season, "In the Pale Moonlight" Trek at its finest.

[NJmaverick]

22. I really enjoyed that series the most (followed closely by the original)

but I will admit it was probably the farthest from Gene Roddenberry's vision for the series.

[WildEyedLiberal]

24. Yes, because it's the only one that deals realistically with human nature

With all due respect to Gene Roddenberry and the previous ST series - I am a big TNG fan as well - but DS9 was the most dramatic and compelling of any ST show by far. I never fully accepted or got on board with the naivete of the first two shows, especially TNG - the whole hippie idealism of "oh, humanity has completely evolved into a totally altruistic, peaceful, cooperative race and Earth is a perfect utopia and the Federation exists without money because no one is greedy anymore and basically everything is a paradise." Sorry, not only is that impossible and never going to happen, it's BORING. There will ALWAYS be greedy, unscrupulous bastards who manipulate and take advantage of others, and who want to accumulate all resources and wealth for themselves, and it's a total cop-out to deal with those issues vis a vis other, less-evolved "aliens" and imply that humans are pretty much sin-free in the 24th century. I liked TNG because it had a terrific ensemble cast and vivid characters, but the utopian shiny-brightness of it all was a bit too much.

Which is where DS9 comes in, and where it excelled. In DS9, the universe wasn't this bright, shiny, happy place where only a few isolated "bad" guys have nasty or ulterior motives. Hell, even the main Starfleet characters were forced to make morally ambiguous choices - which might sound like a basic "well, duh" for good TV drama, but trust me, that kind of thing did *not* happen on TNG. Not until the movie First Contact did you have any kind of serious conflict where a TNG character's darker nature threatened to overcome his noble intentions. In DS9, we finally get to see that, although the 24th century may be a good deal more enlightened than our world, people are still people - they are selfless, selfish, scheming, manipulative, noble, and brave, sometimes all at once.

Also, Battlestar Galatica fans might be interested to note that two of the minds behind BSG -Ron Moore and David Weddle - were leading DS9 writers and story developers. I don't think there'd be a BSG without DS9.

[nemo137]

26. There are MAJOR parallels between the two.

The kickass female second (Kara's basically Nyres with more booze), the "enemy among us" theme, the "villain who's on our side" thing (Odo/Athena), the father/son conflict, the lantern-jawed enlisted guy to whom bad things happen (both named Chief - O'brien and Tyrol)... the list just goes on.

[WildEyedLiberal]

27. Yep. BSG is basically DS9 without the baggage of the "Star Trek legacy"

I've read several interviews with Moore and Ira Steven Behr, the lead story developers on DS9, and they speak again and again of their frustrations of being creatively stymied by Paramount because such-and-such storyline or plot twist wouldn't be "in line" with the Star Trek mythos. Episodes like "In the Pale Moonlight" absolutely pushed the boundary for Trek, because as Gene Roddenberry envisioned it, the future wasn't supposed to be dark and grim and warlike - it was supposed to be this peaceful nirvana. Again, with all due respect to Roddenberry and his noble vision, that isn't realistic, and when DS9 pushed those boundaries, it resulted in the most dramatically potent Trek ever made.

With Galactica, the producers and writers were freed of such burdens, and the result is one of the best shows on TV, a show that proves that science fiction can be a fantastic vehicle for dramatic storytelling. Well, DS9 proved that ten years ago, but nobody watched.

[tigereye]

77. I agree, much more gritty and realistic...

[JTG of the PRB]

29. You are, without a doubt, 100% absolutely CORRECT.

Someday I will own every Star Trek Series on DVD... But DS9 will be the first series I collect, without question or hesitation.

[hedgehog]

31. When I first heard the concept, all I could think of was "what, space mall?"

The episodes in which various Cardassians confront, justify, deny or beg forgiveness for the occupation of Bajor would make for an excellent religious ed course for high school students. Toss in the episodes in which Sisko is forced to ask himself how far he is willing to go to defeat the enemies of the Federation and you have the next year's course. Look at how the Ferengi are forced to choose between staying true to their culture and assimilating.

[leeroysphitz]

32. You are high. n/t

[Yavin4]

33. The New Battlestar Galatica Puts All Other Space-SciFi Shows To Shame

Makes them all look like amateur hour. Deals with real issues, real story lines, real human complexities, and keeps you on the edge of your seat thirsting for more.

Case in point, witness the new Caprica episodes. Those episodes took the bold step of making you feel sympathetic to suicide bombers. Name any work of fiction, SciFi or otherwise, that would even dare take such a chance.

BSG leaves me physically spent at times.

[WildEyedLiberal]

34. This is true, but BSG owes a great deal to DS9

I spoke about this a bit in my earlier post. The same creative team went from DS9 to BSG and essentially fleshed out the issues they touched on in DS9. Battlestar Galactica is one of the best shows - sci-fi or otherwise - of all time, but if you want to see its spiritual predecessor, watch the last 3 seasons of DS9.

[chknltl]

38. Better than Lost In Space or Babylon 5????

As a fan of BSG, B-5, Star Trek and most things Science Fiction on the television, I find reasons to both agree and disagree with you. Sci Fi TV has gotten better over time, BSG has had a lot to draw from to reach what many feel is one of the best if not the best of this genre on the small screen.

For it's time, the original Star Trek provided great societal commentary, oftentimes quite shocking. A member of the bridge command staff who was both female AND black created a lot of tongue wagging back in the '60s if I recall. The show gave us hope-hope that humanity would turn out OK. It was a good thing too considering the tumultuous period of our history the original Star Trek came out in.

Off topic but somewhat germain: May I strongly recommend William Shatner's autobiography: "Up Till Now"

If I might be a truly sexist geek for a moment, T'Pol, (Jolene Blalock-Star Trek Enterprise), is the hottest babe in space! She makes 7-of-Nine look like 6 out of 10! I'd not pass on her for any other gal in any other TV Sci Fi show. (I reserve the right to change this assessment just in case Rachel Maddow should score a gig in space!)

btw: Do ya know what B-5 and Lost In Space have in common?

[pokerfan]

49. Do ya know what B-5 and Lost In Space have in common?

Bill Mumy?



What does B5 have in common with Grease?

[chknltl]

50. Impressive!

[pokerfan]

52. So what does B5 have in common with Grease?

[chknltl]

54. Sha Na Na?

Sorry, I have no clue. I guess I was never much of a fan of movies which had Olivia Newton or a young John Travolta in them.

[pokerfan]

55. hint

[chknltl]

57. Zack?

Wasn't he Garibaldi's second and eventually the Chief of Security.
Did you know that Garibaldi's Jerry-(Jeff?) Doyle (Sp?)is a neocon radio talk jock? I used to listen to him a bit while painting a house. It was truly sad to hear one of my faves from B-5 talking such garbage!

[pokerfan]

58. yeah, Zack = Kenickie

According to imdb, Jerry Doyle is also good friends with Michael Savage. :shrug:

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0236381/bio

[kentauros]

60. Well, the way I look at it is

if they can still act, play their part the way it was written, I don't care what their personal life is, even if it is as a neocon. Fred Thompson was (still is?) a good actor in the roles he had (I can't remember specific movies at the moment.) Can't stand his political life, but I always liked his parts. Same for Jerry Doyle. Even Ahnold ;)

[chknltl]

64. Yeah, I still love Doyle's character 'Garibaldi'

I agree with you on Fred Thompson, I liked Thompson in Hunt For Red October. Even though his part there was small, his commanding presence fit the part perfectly imo. I take no issue with Fred Thompson for his politics either. I suppose 'we can agree to disagree on politics' he and I. I say this because I truly know very little about the man. Perhaps if I knew more about him I might be more jaded.

When it comes to Jerry Doyle, his character Garibaldi had been one of my faves from Babylon 5, still is actually. It's in the listening to his talk show for a summer that I came to despise the man's thinkings when it comes to the Muslim world. His rants against the Muslims on the radio were...well utterly disgusting. He was back then, trying to whip up fear in his listeners, the kind of fear that the nazi propagandists once used to drive German citizens against Jews. Does this change anything for me as to his acting skills? Well, now he is no longer 'Garibaldi' for me, I'll admit to that and if he got any further gigs as an actor I would likely be jaded against him. I suppose I am just human-I'd be jaded against Ann Coulter in similar fashion too if she took up acting. I would dearly love to see (hear) Doyle and Mike Malloy have a go at it.

btw Arnold will always be Conan to me...never quite understood why folks hated him so for that.

[chknltl]

62. Eeee-yuck-ola!!!

Jerry Doyle and Michal Savage! I can believe it. Likely has the hots for Ann Coultergeist too!

Found his radio show: http://www.jerrydoyle.com/site (I DUed his poll ha!)
The guy staunchly is behind bombing Iran and believes that we need to torture the 'terrorists' for our very survival! He left me with the impression that he actually believes that the entire Muslim world is out to destroy America because it is a basic part of the Muslim faith. (Well that's what I recall from hearing his show two summers back while painting a friends house.)

[Danger Mouse]

36. Not even close.

[Fire Walk With Me]

37. Recommending.

[flvegan]

56. Your Rec will only invoke more flames.

Thank you for it.

[Fire Walk With Me]

63. I live to serve.

(salute salute)

[rcrush]

45. DS9 had the best storyline

You cant compare Picard and Sisko they are just awesome in their own way. Avery Brooks was the shit though.

[chknltl]

53. This thread needs more flames!

Ya but Star Trek Enterprise had:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcUeOjDHCfU&feature=related

[WildEyedLiberal]

65. I was going to watch Enterprise until

I heard that the title song was Rod fuckin' Stewart.

Yeeeeeeaaaah..... no.

[chknltl]

67. Hey! I liked that song....

I like lotsa different kinds of music, I confess to being able to enjoy watchin American Idol as well. (It's true, I need to get out more!) I did not know that Rod Stewert sang that song though. I saw him once loooooong ago when he fronted Rod Stewert and the Faces. He and his mates got beat up, (literally) by a mob onstage at a show in Berlin Germany. I guess they wanted his body but didn't find him so sexy. (Actually they were very angry with him at the time!)

OK so besides the music, after watchin the video, you gotta admit that T'Pol/Jolene Blalock is...well... um... OK so you don't have to admit to anything, did I tell ya how much I enjoyed the song?

[MilesColtrane]

61. Avery Brooks chowed down on more scenery than Shatner could ever dream of.

At least Shatner is watchable.

[Liberal_in_LA]

66. NOOOOOOOOOOOOO! TNG was the best.

[tigereye]

69. best ensemble in many ways and best Captain... (despite my love for Stewart)

I love Avery Brooks. Amazing actor.

[LanternWaste]

72. That's a bit like saying monkey poop is the best smelling...

That's a bit like saying monkey poop is the best smelling of all primate poop in existence. And for all I know, monkey poop *does* smell better than the poop of all other primates... but it's still shit.

[racaulk]

73. We may all disagree which series was the best, but I think we can all agree which was the worst!

[Pryderi]

75. Ugh...BRING BACK QUANTUM LEAP!

[tigereye]

78. we tried to watch Enterprise, but gave up in disgust after it went all 911-

jingoistic.

[skooooo]

74. How can you turn your back on Spock???

:wtf:

[TheMightyFavog]

76. Action Stations, Action Stations, set condition one throughout the ship!

Lounge flamewar detected!

[travelingtypist]

79. I'd rank DS9 third after TNG and TOS.

Now if they had managed to actually cast Ro Laren (Michelle Forbes)
as the Bajoran liaison officer, it would be my #1.

I had no use for and didn't watch either Voyager or Enterprise.

[Rabrrrrrr]

80. Sure, if you worship at the altar of rick berman's "all war, all the time" uncreative scrotum

I liked DS9 when it started, then it just got fucking stupid.

And I blame Rick Berman for it.