Fox is upset about our use of their intellectual property.

[Skinner]

We got a letter from Fox today. Apparently they disapprove of our use of the Homer icon to signfy "dumb" on the Top Ten Conservative Idiots. You know, this one:



We are going to comply with their request, because I think it has some merit, and also because it's not worth our time and money to fight it. You gotta pick your fights. They didn't specifically mention my avatar image (Principal Skinner from "The Simpsons"), but I'm going to change that too. I've got a placeholder, but I'll come up with something new soon.

Anyway, thought you all would appreciate reading their correspondence...

[GOPisEvil]

1. Does this affect DU users who have uploaded their own avatars?

Just wondering...

[Screaming Lord Byron]

2. I don't imagine the BBC is going to track me down for a 25-year old

Dr Who icon.

Fox might, though.

[private_ryan]

6. I would say so

apparently they chosen this idiotic route. Who would in their right minds think DU is connected with Fox?

[mot78]

71. This is the same excuse they used against Al Franken

[regnaD kciN]

21. Yes, it does...

...but that really applies to all sorts of avatars, not just Faux material. For example, for a long time, I used a photo of the Space Needle (because I live near Seattle). Now, nobody has hassled me on it, but the Space Needle is owned by a private company, and they have taken action against film companies that included shots of it in their motion pictures (apparently, it's O.K. if it's just part of the skyline, but not O.K. if the camera singles it out). I assume they could also crack down on DU for including that image as part of the "standard avatars."

[Robb]

3. Yeah, I can see their point.

I mean, like the first year or so I was posting here I was pretty much positive you were a subsidiary of Fox. :eyes:

[Zero Gravitas]

4. Conservative Idiots

#1 Fox.

[southpaw72]

5. wow are they that scared of DU? <eom>

[Plaid Adder]

7. Now you know you've arrived!

Being sued by Fox really puts DU on the map.

Pity poor Heather Anderson-Hayes...imagine how soul-destroying this job must be. What are you going to replace Homer's head with? Bush's? BUt that would be a tautology...

C ya,

The Plaid Adder

[skypilot]

8. Just replace Homer's face with Bush's

Same idea. Dumb.

[Zero Gravitas]

9. Should I stop using

the Bart Simpson ™ avatar?

[Skinner]

23. Refresh the page.

It's been changed.

Hey, we've got the same avatar! :D

[SmileyBoy]

I actually like that avatar, Skinner!!!

Now I have to worry about getting an e-mail from the Phoenix Coyotes...

[Zero Gravitas]

27. D'OH!

(am i allowed to say that?) :)

[alwynsw]

83. That has achieved common usage status.

It made the OED, so you can use it all you want.

[prolesunited]

30. Hahahahaha!

Glad to see you still have a sense of humor after everything you've been through the past couple of months.

[Richardo]

10. Heather's been working on that signature...

...it's probably all over her notebooks from law school.

I recommend you send her a note back acceding to their request, with the notation "D'oh!" attached. :D

[nini]

11. Since they're lurking..

we really need to get the finger flipping smiley back to let them know how we feel about them

:-)

[Ediacara]

12. That really sucks

Although I agree, it's their copyright and they own it, their "logic" is unbelievibly spurious (someone might think that DU is selling Homer Simpson!), and well, it's silly.

One thing I'm not at all surprised to find out though, is that it took them three years to figure it out....

[proud patriot]

13. what a bummer

But we love the Simpsons , and watch it
regularly ..Oh well ...I guess they have a point .

[southerngirlwriter]

14. To hell with Fox!!

I understand that you have to comply, but they're a bunch of assholes. How anyone living on this planet who has ever even heard of the FOX News channel could possibly DREAM that ANYONE would think that Fox likes the politics here is a joke.

Hey, Fox -- here's what I think of you:

:puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:
:puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:
:puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:
:puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:
:puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:
:puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:
:puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:


One question -- will this affect what avatars we can upload? What if I wanted a Bart avatar? Will the Lisa avatar have to come down?

[eyesroll]

15. I like your placeholder, Skinner!

I hope they don't decide that "Skinner" is a trademark, too. (I'm sure Nancy, B.F., someone I went to college with, et. al., hope so, too...)

[renegade000]

16. just replace homer with rupert murdoch

simple really.

[CO Liberal]

31. Great Minds Think Alike, Renegade!

See my post #26.

[regnaD kciN]

34. Nope...

1) Murdoch would probably claim rights to his own picture, and pull the same crap all over again.

2) Besides, who knows what Murdoch looks like? Anyone who saw the picture of Homer immediately associated it with "dumb."

My suggestion for a replacement? How about a fox wearing a dunce cap?

[Cassandra]

Nice of them to acknowledge...

your right to have political views that differ from theirs. Must be a mistake on their part. Bushco authorizes no other political views.

[Evil_Dewers]

17. Does Fox know how much The Simpsons creator

Matt Groening hates Fox, Rupert Murdoch and NewsCorp?

Out of protest, I'm canceling DirecTV today since that weasel Murdoch bought it.

Oh yeah, and my wife is no longer allowed to purchase TV Guide at the supermarket.

[regnaD kciN]

29. We should send a copy of this correspondance to Groening...

...I'm sure he can't do anything about it (as he signed away the copyrights to Fox long ago), but maybe he can work it into an upcoming storyline or something.

[ronnykmarshall]

45. Great idea!

[proud patriot]

74. I second that

Great Idea

[Syncronaut Seven]

77. Contact Matt & see if you can use Biinky instead?

.

[Carni]

18. Why in hell?

Do they even mention your political views in thier letter?

WTF?

That doesn't seem relevant in a copyright matter so why are they bringing it up?

Guess the faux people have nothing better to do than spank web site hosts who provide a voice to moderates and liberals!

[banana republican]

19. Fair & Balanced???

[ronnykmarshall]

20. I love the line

"This letter is not a reflection of Fox's position regarding your political objectives."

Hmmm? Maybe we need to check out some RW sites that might need good ol' Heather's attention.

[SmileyBoy]

22. Are the Phoenix Coyotes gonna mail me about my Jets avatar???

(The Coyotes own the trademark rights to the Winnipeg Jets logo)

I really don't think so.

It's too bad FOX is doing this to us.

[Goldom]

24. Fair Use

There's nothing they can do about it. Not to mention, their letter says "animated images". That's a still shot. What do they mean?

http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html

One may remember FOX also sued ITSELF for using its own material. Not the brightest cookies in the 6-pack.

[felonious thunk]

25. Use a copy of this letter as your avatar

And sign off on all your posts by saying:

"Nothing in this post shall be construed as being the opinion of Fox News, The Fox Network or any subsidiaries of NewsCorp. In addition, nothing in this post shall be construed to indicate that Rupert Murdoch is an evil twit, bent on world domination by manipulating the rights that free people hold dear."

[CO Liberal]

26. You Could Replace Homer's Picture With One of Rupert Murdock

:-)

[renegade000]

28. hey thats my idea

Great minds think alike

:P

[myrna minx]

35. To quote the Simpsons..."I'm billionaire tyrant Rupert Murdoch."

Good gravey, this is so petty. :eyes:

[Gato Moteado]

32. hold on skinner.....

i think taking on fox in court would be a good idea. look what happened to the guys that owned the tshirt company that made the faux news tshirts....when fox tried to sue them their sales shot through the roof and they're probably millionaires now. look what happened when fox tried to sue al franken for his use of "fair and balanced" in his book title....it instantly shot up to number one on the NYT best seller list.

getting sued by fox is the midas touch! they are always found to be "wholly without merit". i might think twice about bending to their demands too quickly. Du's membership could reach millions within a week of getting sued by fox.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

36. Yeah, Skinner, I think flush_bush has a point

Besides, it's NOT clear whether the Homer icon falls under Fair Use or not. A consultation with a lawyer may be in order. If lawyer says you have a case, reinstate the icons and start making noise.

[Skinner]

40. I'm already spending hundreds of dollars a month for legal advice.

This one just isn't worth it for me.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

48. They bill you by the word (or by the minute)? Eeek. (nt)

[asthmaticeog]

88. Then let me help you out for free.

I'm not a lawyer, but I'm a graphic designer, so I've had to stay up on my fair use - otherwise I'd be putting concert clubs at risk when I appropriate images for posters. And if small clubs start getting sued, there goes my part of my income and all my social life!

The use of Homer wasn't fair by a long shot. It was neither educational nor a parody/commentary on the material used, nor did you use as part of a distinct new creative work. I hate to say it, but that's one Fox lawsuit that would NOT be "wholly without merit." You did the right thing by taking all the Simpsons material down. However, since the "Faux News" logos and other such jokes are parodic, they're fair use -- and so Fox properties are still fair game (by law I mean - if you want to ban 'em, hey, it's your site!). It just has to be done right.

By the way, thanks for D.U., Skinner!

Edited to add: I should mention that I've done published work that included an unauthorized image of Homer Simpson. It was legally vetted before publication and it passed fair use muster. I'll stress it again, your use wouldn't have. I admire the "let's go get 'em" spirit I'm seeing in the posts calling for a fight on this, but people, come on, there are more important battles.

[Kolesar]

42. Remember the play "the Mouse that Roared"?

a tiny nation declared war on the USA to get defeated and get reconstruction money. Come to think of it, that whole idea kind of sucks in a 2003 context. Sorry I mentioned it

[jmm]

39. Millions within a week isn't necessarily a good thing.

Maybe you have a point about getting sued by Fox bringing that kind of attention to DU but that kind of rise in membership seems like it would be extremely difficult for the admins and moderators.

[Gato Moteado]

47. true, it would be difficult for the mods, but......

....that kind of membership would be a goldmine as it could bring in, via advertising and donations, the kind of money that would enable DU to get it's message heard loudly around the country. also, people like george soros would probably throw a bunch of cash to DU to help it grow to meet the needs of serving millions and getting the message out.

[Paragon]

33. Remember, Homer beat the crap out of Dubya's dad

That makes him smart, not "dumb". I second the motion for Dubya's face to replace Homer's.

[JohnLocke]

37. Here's an idea for you, Skinner.

"The buck stops here" signs.

[Wickerman]

38. that sucks

but I would rather see you be safe than sorry. Their lawyers are gonna be bigger than yours, I'm certain.

Fuck, does this mean I should be worrying about letters from the estate of Richard Brautigan? doubtful.

[CO Liberal]

41. Fox Has "Intellectual Property"???

That's a laugh!!!

:-)

[Catherine Vincent]

43. But Homer IS dumb. That whole show is dumb, imo.

[Submariner]

44. The words "Fox" and "intellectual" in the same sentence?

Does not compute!?! Hey FOX! Can I still use your 'intellectual' likeness?

[southerngirlwriter]

63. I am in awe.

:wow: :wow: :wow: :wow: :wow:


This is PERFECT. Nice job! :yourock:

[tigereye]

66. that's great thank you

[Vittorio]

46. Replace it with Bush's face.

That's the epitome of dumb.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

49. Best alternative icon so far. (nt)

[SoCalDem]

51. This one's nice

[DoNotRefill]

50. I've changed my avatar....

from Buddha to the one there now as a protest against Fox. Fuck Fox and the horse they rode in on.

Seems to me that the use DU has put the icons to would fall under fair use. The idea that somebody would be so stupid as to see the use of a Simpsons icon as an endorsement by Fox is preposterous.

[Breezy du Nord]

52. Bart! No!

He's gone! What have the people at FOx done with my precious Bart avatar!

:( I really liked that one. Guess I'll just go back to using Lennon.

[DrWeird]

53. Get a hold of Matt Groening.

He's quite a liberal you know.

Fox would never have a case if you got Groening's permission.

[catzies]

54. My biggest fantasy in LIFE

Is to get a hold of Matt Groening.

Maybe pre-emptively mine should go too...don't want a nasty letter from Sanrio... x(

[Kamika]

55. What about having them in our sig lines?

? not hosted on du

[CO Liberal]

56. I Just Nominated Fox...

...for next week's "Conservative Idiots" list. They deserve it!!!

[DS1]

57. Classic Power-grabber signature

oops, is that also ©?

[DrWeird]

58. Here's a good replacement.

<>

[bif]

59. Just use a picture of Shrub making a stupid face

Lord knows there are millions to choose from.

[citizen snips]

60. Is that the only thing they can nag us with?

[Blue-Jay]

61. Well, shit.

Screw you, Fox.

[IndianaGreen]

62. Coongratulations, you made Murdoch's shit list!

Be proud!

[Panda1]

64. Yes, In good company....Al Franken

Uh oh, can the state of CA sue for my avatar? I go along with the majority here and recommend a really goofy looking picture of Chimpy. But, is there any other kind?
Does this also mean we can't use the Faux logo?

[Mick Knox]

65. Wasnt there a similar thing happening a few weeks ago?

IP can get nasty.. dont mess with it anymore; good decision

[tigereye]

67. I can understand a cartoon owned by a corporation in a way

but it is kind of scary to think of so many things as "property" and owned by a corp. Sort of Orwellian. Like Bill Gates owning that photo archive. Seems kind of chilling in terms of free expresssion... what was the name of that Internet intellectual freedom org... I'm sure I'm way behind on all of that. My husband talks all the time about that book The Shockwave Rider, might be worth a reread.

[Djinn]

68. Rupert you can kiss my arse

According to Groening, Fox took exception took a Simpsons' version of the Fox News rolling news ticker which parodied the channel's anti-Democrat stance, with headlines like "Do Democrats Cause Cancer?"

"Fox fought against it and said they would sue the show," Groening said.

"We called their bluff because we didn't think Rupert Murdoch would pay for Fox to sue itself. So, we got away with it."

"Now Fox has a new rule that we can't do those little fake news crawls on the bottom of the screen in a cartoon because it might confuse the viewers into thinking it's real news," he said.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?

Atleast they admit FAUX could be confused with a cartoon!

[VOX]

69. Well, that certainly is a turd in the punchbowl.

To hell with 'em.

Like many of the wise posters above, I too nominate one of the numerous dippy photos of *. There was one run in the Lounge last week, I believe, that was particularly appropriate.

Will see if I can locate it.

Sorry, Skinner -- :shrug:

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

70. My suggestion for replacement avatar (attached)

To replace either the 'dumb' one or Skinner's - your pick:

[GreenPartyVoter]

72. That sucks

[Bucky]

73. There go the sharp business minds at Fox, rejecting free advertising

Since it's not Fox News, just Fox entertainment, I'm cool with respecting artistic trademarks. But this is a really dumb call.

[nickgutierrez]

75. Well, I'm changing my avatar too, then

To match the one Skinner and others are using. It's a fitting sign of solidarity.

[supernova]

76. Marge Simpson

Does that mean that blondeatlast and KCDem will have to quit being Marge Simpson, she of the 4ft blue hair?

Waaah!

FOX sucks!!

[specimenfred1984]

78. Tell Them You Want Written Proof It's Their Property

Make them do some more work, waste more money and time. Anyone can say they own anything, but do they really?

Why should DU comply with someone's claim without evidence of that claim?

[elperromagico]

79. Wow - I really thought a freakin' cartoon character endorsed this site.

Now I'm just *so* confused.

[specimenfred1984]

80. Also, Send Them The Same Letter Back Requesting Signatures

Tell them DU is copywrited and they are not allowed to use it in anyway, shape or form.

Their lawyers are costing them a whole heck of a lot more than yours, it's a losing proposition for them to keep bickering. DU isn't worth anything anyway, so what has FAUX got to gain and what has DU got to lose?

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

81. actually, groening's become quite the asshole

and would probably side with fox

case in point this little tale:
http://www.illegal-art.org/print/index.html#bunnyhop


"When Noel Tolentino finished the first issue of his zine Bunnyhop, he sent a copy to Simpsons creator Matt Groening, along with a gushing fan letter. For the magazine's cover, Tolentino had used Binky from Groening's Life in Hell comic, and he assumed his hero would appreciate the homage. Shortly thereafter, Tolentino and co-publisher Seth Robson received a cease-and-desist letter from Groening's lawyers. Lacking the resources to fight, the Bunnyhop publishers were forced to destroyed the covers on all remaining copies. Although Groening personally apologized to Tolentino for the suit, he later defended his actions in a Mother Jones interview (May 1999), saying, "If I don't vigorously pursue my copyright, then other people can steal it." Groening did not comment on The Simpsons' habit of parodying everything from A Clockwork Orange to The Cosby Show."

[elperromagico]

82. It all comes down to money.

If Fox or Groening isn't making a profit off of it, call the lawyers.

[rasputin1952]

84. Pretty pathetic, ...

but you got to do what you've got to do.

FAUX is a rancid organization anyway. About the only good thing there is The Simpson's. Like Bart said, "won't be the first time", when told they had saved FAUX.

I still remember the episodes where they made fun of the FOX satellite and the Springfield Republican HQ's, they don't like them either.

I love your new 'legal' avatar though!

O8)

[LynneSin]

85. Fox has sent similiar letters to personal websites using "The Simpsons"

They've shut down plenty of those websites where you could download *.wav files for the same reasons they've given DU.

[legin]

86. this happens a lot on font sites (or did)

I remember the font 'Buffied' (sp?) generated some of these type of letters, i think.

[Birthday]

87. How can Fox lay claim

to ANYTHING "intellectual", property or otherwise?

And speaking of Fox, has anyone out there read "Into the Buzz Saw", edited by Borjesson?

[sistersofmercy]

89. You don't have to change your name just say it's in honor of

B F Skinner.

[LTR]

90. I've got some avatar images for ya!!!

Just a little Google image search:

http://images.google.com/images?q=skinner&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en

Came up with:





















...ooops, can't use that one!



The Skinner tombstone???

Well, there are options.

Does this mean I gotta get rid of Triumph? Will NBC send me a letter?