Saw "Boys Don't Cry" last night on Bravo - how frustrating!

[Gringo]

This "Brandon Teena" must have been one thickheaded kid. He(she) goes out with a girl, decieving her the whole time, commits various small-time crimes, starts hanging out with two CLEARLY sociopathic/psychotic ex-cons, and then gets raped and killed when exposed as a girl.

Granted, the acting was great, and the relationship between Brandon and Lena was somewhat touching, I just couldn't stop thinking about how DUMB this Teena was, starting fights with men twice his size, doing crazy dangerous stunts, drunk-driving, speeding- seemed to have a deathwish to me...


Sometimes true stories aren't as satisfying as the fictional kind.

edit - (I removed the word "SOB" - my point is not to make Brandon out to be the villain here, I'm only frustrated with his bad judgment)

[Paragon]

1. I see we haven't got to "sympathy for the transgendered" yet.

Guess gay marriage is about all we can handle. :eyes: I do applaud you for watching it, however.

[Dookus]

3. hell

we can't even get people to understand the Boy Scouts of America is unworthy of support.

We're a long way away from acceptance for transgendered youth.

It is sad. Very sad, isn't it Paragon?

[slinkerwink]

4. yes, it's extremely sad----watching that movie made me cry....

[Dookus]

8. I have the movie on DVD

and honestly, I haven't watched it yet because I know I'll bawl my eyes out.

Queer youth issues just tear me up. It all hits too close to home.

however, I am very familiar with the Brandon Teena story, and anybody who suggests he deserved what he got is despicable.

[slinkerwink]

10. when I was a teenager, I was afraid of coming out at my public high school

because a couple of gay kids I knew went there had been harassed.

[Gringo]

15. Being annoyed with someone for playing with fire

is not the same as saying that they deserved the 3rd degree burns. It's horrible what happened, and I wish Brandon could have grabbed the gun and killed those 2 sick fvcks. But why he chose to put himself in dangerous situation after dangerous situation is beyond me.

[ScreamingMeemie]

16. Would you say then, that a girl who goes out dressed in a mini skirt

every day is putting herself in a dangerous situation? What you are saying boils down to the same thing. No one deserves this.

[slinkerwink]

18. exactly! it's that same logic used to justify violence against that person

[Gringo]

25. Nonsense.

Going out in a miniskirt, any girl should be safe. If a girl goes out with a psychotic ex-con, she is foolish in doing so. Of course she's not to blame for any violence that befalls her, but would you stand by idly if YOUR girl friend was going out with a guy who you KNEW was abusing her until she ended up dead because after all "it's not her fault"? Hell no, you'd try to get her as far away from the psycho as possible, right?

[slinkerwink]

30. your logic is horribly flawed

[Gringo]

36. So if you were Brandon's friend

You wouldn't have tried to get him to stop decieving and hanging out with psychotic, alcoholic homophobes? You'd just send him off saying "Have fun drunk driving with those thugs, Brandon!"

Whose logic is flawed here?

[slinkerwink]

38. well, for starters-----they were his only friends

and there were no TOLERANT people in that town!

[Gringo]

43. I don't know that to be the case

He was from a bigger town. Lincoln, where there must be at least a small GLBT community, but he chose to hang out with the deliverance family out in the sticks, people he didn't know well. He at least had a cousin back in Lincoln who seemed to care about him.

[slinkerwink]

45. do you even know how big Lincoln is? GLBT communities can't

be open as they want to be in that state.

[ScreamingMeemie]

39. But that's not how you started this thread. You didn't blame his

family or friends...you blamed him. :shrug:

[Gringo]

49. Yes - because his risky behavior was disturbing

I never needed family and friends to tell me not to drive with .20 blood alcohol, I just didn't. Some young people, however, do need a good talking-to from a caring elder to cut out this kind of behavior. Again, the issue here isn't his being transgendered, it's his addiction to risk. The most precious thing anyone has is their life, and I had to see anyone not protect it.

[slinkerwink]

51. I like how you cloak your dislike of his transgenderism into concern

about masculine patterns that he was asserting to fit in with his peers....

[ScreamingMeemie]

35. Oh no Gringo. This type of thought process is exactly the same.

That by their actions somehow someone is more deserving of death. Would I stand idly by? No. Would I say it was her fault? No.

[Gringo]

40. Bad people deserve death. Foolish people do not.

Doesn't mean I'm not frustrated when I see people I care about acting foolishly.

Don't confuse "deserve to die" and "trying to get oneself killed" they are two diffferent things.

[slinkerwink]

so you would rather that he be a girl instead of being transgendered?

[Gringo]

28. Of course not.

But don't go getting involved with alcoholic families, psychotic ex-cons, and people who are clearly NOT tolerant of GLBT issues.

[slinkerwink]

32. well, it's hard to avoid that when you live in a state that has

those kind of people. they're EVERYWHERE!

[Maddy McCall]

55. The closet almost led to suicide in my brother's case...

After six suicide attempts, he couldn't live closeted anymore.

Guess dead is better than "out" to some people, though.

[slinkerwink]

2. are you saying that Brandon deserved the rape because of his

transgenderism?

[Gringo]

9. Umm...

Did you even read my post? I said I think he had a death wish. He CONSISTENTLY put himself in very dangerous situations. It was only a matter of time before he died of a car wreck, or a fight, or a bashing or whatever. Watching the movie, I felt like I do when watching a friend with self-destructive tendencies in a downward spiral. Of course, he didn't deserve any of the horror that befell him. And Candace certainly didn't deserve to die. I realize that tolerant people are hard to come by in that neck of the woods, but it was clear from the get-go that these were not the kind of people to be hanging out with.

[slinkerwink]

12. it wasn't a death wish---it was asserting the kind of masculinity he

saw in those that he wanted acceptance from.

[Dookus]

19. He was a fucking kid

who did NOTHING worse than millions of boys his age. They don't get murdered for it.

[Gringo]

31. Well, I sowed a few oats at that age

but compared to Brandon, I played it REALLY safe.

I guess that's part of why I'm still alive.

[Maddy McCall]

42. Yes, but the thing about gender dysphorics and transgendered people

is that sometimes they engage in the same risk-taking in which other people who are depressed or have low self-esteem engage.

But that is certainly NO REASON to hate Brandon. Instead, you should feel sorrow for him. Or even gladness that he got to be himself at least for a little while before he was murdered.

YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW MANY PEOPLE--PEOPLE YOU KNOW--SUFFER FROM THE EXACT SAME DISORDER but live a closeted life because of fear--fear of being called an ignorant SOB by people they love or, worse, fear of being violently assaulted or murdered.

I have walked my mile with a gender dysphoric person. I have every right to my opinion on this matter. If your knowledge is limited to what you learned in a two-hour movie, I suggest you read up on the topic before digging your hole any deeper.

[Gringo]

52. Of course I don't hate him.

If I knew him, I'd have liked him a lot, and I'd have been pissed as hell at his crazy behavior.

[Dookus]

46. and I presume

you were not alienatd from society. I presume you weren't rejected by your family. I presume you didn't grow up horribly confused about who you were. I presume you might've had a little bit of love, understanding and acceptance growing up. I presume you didn't have a condition that fucked you up beyond anything you can imagine.

[Maddy McCall]

34. He was a teenage boy...

Anyone who knows anything about gender dysphoria would agree.

Therefore, you are 100% right, Dook.


What I find ironic is that Gringo is finding the same fault in Brandon that the two bastards who murdered him found in him.

So, Gringo, what the fuck separates YOU from the two guys who killed Brandon? How are you different? Your reason for hating the "thickskulled, ignorant SOB are identical to theirs, IMO.

[Dookus]

5. This is one of the more

disgusting threads I've ever seen here.

[Maddy McCall]

13. I agree...

and it was INTENDED to be so, which makes it all the more disgusting.

[Gringo]

17. No, it was not

I looked at Brandon as if he were my child or my friend. If I'd known him, I would have done everything I could have to get him to stop the out-of-hand risk-taking he was doing, and keep himself alive. Sorry that you find that "disgusting".

[slinkerwink]

22. again, I ask, would you rather that he be a girl instead of transgendered?

[Dookus]

27. It might be worth

considering the alienation, loneliness and desperation that plague queer youth, especially transgendered ones.

There is little, if any, societal resources available to help them. Combine alienation of that sort with youth and it's not surprising that some bad decisions are made.

We all make bad decisions, especially in our youth. But none of us deserves to be murdered for them.

[Maddy McCall]

48. That is why the suicide rate is astronomical in gender dysphoric, gay,

and lesbian kids.

It is so sad--I surely hope a teen going through this experience doesn't wander onto DU tonight--into this community that in the past has been so accepting of people of all kinds.

This whole thread saddens me.

[oxymoron]

20. I'm speechless.

I am at a complete loss. I'll never understand the callousness of some people.

[saltpoint]

6. When I saw Boys Don't Cry --

-- I thought maybe the risks taken and all the rough-crowd dares, etc. rose from an emotional need to connect as Brandon instead of as Teena. You've got the violent characters right, but the violence of that crowd made Brandon's plight more understandable, I thought.

The movie tore me up. Too violent but very real and sad.

[ScreamingMeemie]

7. If Teena had been a girl had dressed in girlish trendy fashion and

had gotten raped and killed, would it then be Teena's fault because she had dressed the wrong way? This movie is devastating, and it is also sad that we as a society still label people as somehow deserving of crimes committed against them simply because of how they look and act. :(

[Maddy McCall]

11. As a sister of a a person who suffers gender dysphoria...

.........nah, it isn't worth it.

May you one day reap what you sow, Gringo.

"Thickheaded, dumb SOB?" Again....nah, it isn't worth it.

[slinkerwink]

14. this is where karma hopefully works into this case....

[Maddy McCall]

23. Oh how I agree with you.

[slinkerwink]

24. and on this we can agree....

:hi:

[Maddy McCall]

26. Hey, the GD04 battles stay in GD04...

I don't bring that nastiness into the lounge. Yes, we definitely agree on this, and I am sure on many other things.

:hi: back!

[slinkerwink]

33. that's why I love the lounge! I get to post bush photoshops, my dogs, and

my favorite recipes...

[Maddy McCall]

37. Yup...it's kind of like a haven :-)

[Paragon]

29. Easy, slick

Use this as an opportunity to try to educate - you'll just burn yourself up if you start hating.

I'm a pretty compassionate straight white guy...but I didn't come out of the womb that way. I had to teached these things by others and by my own life experience.

[Paragon]

21. Bottom lining it, Gringo...

...when people see themselves as too fat/gay/black/awkward/whatever for their environments, some people have to compensate/kill the pain by doing unhealthy things.

Brandon Teena is no different, and God bless him, he did manage to find some happiness in his miserable world before he was murdered.

[Sapphocrat]

41. Congratulations, Gringo.

You were the one to bring me out of my latest self-imposed exile from DU. Do you know how? By posting a message that makes me want to vomit.

You may as well assume that I have a "death wish" for continuing to act upon my natural inclination as a lesbian, in the face of hordes of troglodytes who would just as soon rape and murder me for what I am. You may as well ask, oh, Arwalden or Dookus or David_77 why they have a "death wish" for being who they are.

Just when I thought I couldn't be any more stunned by what I read here, I am.

P.S. Golly, gee, d'ya think maybe the story of Brandon bothers you because he was acting like any other brash young man? Like, maybe, you were at that age?

And -- gosh! -- maybe there's NO difference between Brandon and any other man -- you inlcuded -- save for a mistake in plumbing? Isn't that a kick in the head?

Just a thought.



On edit: spelling

[slinkerwink]

50. Brandon was asserting his masculinity because he wanted approval

from his peers, and it wasn't his fault that he was found out and they ended up killing him. That's transferring the blame from the murderers onto the victim.

[Sapphocrat]

54. slink...

You sure you're adressing your reply to me? I agree with you, wholeheartedly.

[slinkerwink]

57. thanks----but I clicked on the wrong post to respond to...but I agree with

you too!

[foreigncorrespondent]

44. Gringo...

...do you hate people? Because some of the crap I have seen you posting lately tells me you do.

[saltpoint]

47. What Brandon may have required from the --

-- violent male characters might have been similar to what Matthew Shepherd required of the two men who killed him. There was a violent subtheme to those characters' lives (unfortunately these are real stories and not fictions in both cases).

I'm not saying it's the same thing exactly, but Brandon and Matthew were responding to what their psyches told them they needed -- the esteem of these male others.

I'm not persuaded that anyone can reach an understanding of Brandon Teena or Matthew Shepherd by blaming them for what they were trying to be honest about.

[LawSchoolLiberal]

53. If I may...

I think the point of the original statement (though perhaps poorly articulated) was NOT that the risk taking was something that made him more culpable, but rather that taking those risks was something that made him more of a VICTIM, and in that sense, made the story even more tragic, if from a different angle.
Of course, the problem, as was later observed, is that the actions of the individual are more of a commentary on our modern culture and its stereotypes in gender imaging than they are on the victim. The risk taking here is as much about trying to be "manly" as a girl's actions in accepting a ride from a stranger could be about acting in a way that conformed to both popular AND cultural views about young women. That's not the best comparison even as I type it, but it's the example that was there. It's not the people, but the views the feel forced to conform to in achieveing the role they want to play in society as adults. Ultimately, it's not all about the young people, but about the importance of informed, empathetic mentoring for all types of young people, gay, straight, transgendered, whatever.

[foreigncorrespondent]

56. Removing SOB from this tripe...

...doesn't exactly change the disgust I and many other feel for this post, Gringo.

Simply disgusting!

[Moderator]

58. Locking

I don't even know what to say... :-(