Of all the bigotries in the world, it's the bigotry against gays I understand the least.

[Rabrrrrrr]

It's like being bigoted against tea drinkers or people who prefer redheads.

Fucking hell.

I can understand some racial and cultural bigotries (though please don't read this that I agree with them - I am only saying I understand; understanding does not imply condoning) because races and cultures can be quite different, and sometimes cultures can definitely oppose one another in ideals and visions and behaviors and whatnot; but I don't get anti-gay bigotry at all. Even when I was a child, I didn't get it.

I was always like, "What the fuck issue is it to me? Okay, so, John likes Jim. Fine. I like Micronauts. Who gives a shit? Go care about something that actually fucking matters, jackass."

I don't get it. I just simply don't get it.

Oh, I realize a lot of Jesus Crispies, Allah Crispies, and YHWH crispies think that God hates gays and so they have to do so, too, but that's not reason enough to leads me to understanding what the real issue is.

:wtf:

:shrug:

[MrCoffee]

1. Fucking tea drinkers!

They shouldn't be allowed to marry our wimmins.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

56. I'm married to one of those

She insists that I have "too much coffee stuff" and it "takes up too much room." The woman needs to understand that I need two French presses, burr grinder and an espresso maker.

[tjwmason]

70. That's just unreasonable

Of course you need a vast quantity of coffee making paraphenalia... :eyes:

[Deep13]

2. The religious prejudice and the folk prejudice feed into each other.

BTW, I will NEVER support human/Micronaut marriages!

[Rabrrrrrr]

6. racist. You probably poor acid on the homeless, too.

:eyes:

[flvegan]

3. 100% agreed.

[HEyHEY]

4. I think most of it comes from straight people's insecurities + social expectations

That we all get married and spawn. REALLY narrow minded people can't grasp something as basic as someone not doing what everyone else does. Add that to sex, which many of them are scared of, and you have your homophobe.

[Rabrrrrrr]

7. That could be a big part of it - especially in America, where sexual maturity is so disastrously low

(by sexual maturity I mean our maturity about sex, not puberty)

we have such a diminished and childish view of sex, sexuality, and sexual organs that it could very well be a big part of the bigotry - "I'm afraid of my own genitalia, so anyone who would prefer it must be a sicko".

And the addiction to procreation probably doesn't help, either.

I like what you say here - I think there's something to it.

[HEyHEY]

12. Thanks!

You know, I'm not scared of my genitals! And I'm proud to say it.

[redqueen]

23. That doesn't explain the guy who beat up two moms

in full view of their child and other children after school.

Unless he's gay. Otherwise they like what he likes, so... ?

[Midlodemocrat]

5. Redheads? Who in Holy Hell prefers redheads? That is flat out disgusting.

There oughta be a law.

[guitar man]

18. Hey, I'm married to a redhead!!

Bigot!! :grr:





:P :D :hi:

[sasquatch]

47. Wow, you are even starting to talk like a Virginian now!

:D

[YankeyMCC]

8. Tea drinkers face much adversity

Funny thing actually. My father told me that when he was in the Navy he got no end of ribbing because he drank tea rather than coffee.

[Aristus]

36. I got teased in the Army because my alcoholic beverage of choice was red wine,

not beer or the hard stuff like with the rest of the guys. Wine was considered "elitist" (there's that word again...) I told a buddy of mine, hey, the Roman legions drank red wine on the march, and they were the toughest soldiers in history. He seemed to accept that explanation.

[Heidi]

9. I don't see "gay" as any different than "has blue eyes."

I posted something of this nature a long while ago in the Lounge. It bears saying often. It is the truth.

[Beer Snob-50]

10. it is IMHO quite simply,

a hatred of anything different. jack should love jane and not ted. ad then throw in the biblical reference (although i have troulble with this reference)which was only put in so that people would try and procreate and get the species to a healthy level again.

btw is there a bigotry against redheads who like to drink tea?

[TZ]

14. Indeed I think thats part of it.

And I think sexual insecurity is also part of it. Its really common for people to be taught NOT to be comfortable with their personal sexuality....
Also
I think there are a lot of people who are actually afraid that gay people are going to hit on them or even attack them...
I mean look at the problems women have with sexual harrassment. I truly think alot of the homophobes are terrified that someone gay is going to attack or harrass them..and of course we do know that a lot of the people that are the most hateful are because they have the same impulses but have been rigidly taught that its wrong.
I think our culture has so screwed up the way we teach and treat sexual mores that its done ALOT of damage.

[Beer Snob-50]

22. i have to agree with the we hate what we are theory.

it goes along the same way with hetrosexuals also. a co-worker and i were talking about plutonic relationships with the opposite sex. she asked me if mrs. pirate was concerned bout the fact that i have wheat thins and hummus with this girl everyday at breaktime. i told her that my wife is not concerned because she is comfortable with our relationship.

[unpossibles]

11. you probably like the Olive Garden too, dontcha?

Just kidding. I agree - I think it's a combination of things, from religion, to insecurity about someone's own sexuality, to a general fear of those who break the norm, and maybe even a bit of people who just like being bossy/nosey to others.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

13. tee hee

:loveya:

[Zuiderelle]

15. Kick and thanks.

:patriot:

[terrya]

42. Thank you. If I could send this to the Greatest Page, I would.

[soleft]

16. Sexuality is something a patriarcal culture needs to control

Nothing aids control like conformity.

[siligut]

32. I have to agree with this.

Within the most controlling groups we see the most conformity. You can see the religious sects, the Catholics and Mormons who are busy procreating are also the more rigid and homophobic.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

57. Catholics are not one of the more homophobic sects

Unfortunately, there occaisionally asshat bishops and such spouting off. Catholics do not believe being gay is a sin, and they do not believe it can be changed.

Fundies and Mormons are WAY more homophobic than Catholics.

My gay wedding was attended by an almost entirely Catholic crowd, and we had a priest do a reading. He wishes he could have been allowed to marry us.

[Kerrytravelers]

17. I'm a readhead.

:cry:



:rofl:

kt

[LostinVA]

19. It's based totally in misogyny and sexism, which are both international problems

[redqueen]

20. Yeah, it's pretty baffling.

I would think most heterosexuals would LIKE gays (at least those of their own sex), cause it means fewer competitors for partners of the opposite sex.

[LynneSin]

21. As someone who can admit, embarassingly,she was homophobic until about the age of 20, I can say this

When you lived around people whose soul belief is "The parts weren't made to work that way" you actually start believe it especially if you are also a straight person. (mind you, I grew up in rural pennsylvania. I got over some of the other racist ideologies taught me pretty darn quickly in life but where I lived, if you were gay you kept that to yourself and well I wasn't smart enough then).

I have to thank Andy, Steve and Ann who helped me realized what an idiot I was. Ann was a best friend at work and a drinking buddy. Steve & Andy worked with us and were a former couple who had broken up about 3 months before I started working there (but were still good friends). I must have drank dozens of times with them until I found out Andy & Steve were gay. And then it dawned on me that perhaps what the assholes in rural redneck Pennsylvania were telling was wrong too. Actually it was Ann who pointed out that homosexuality was not a choice and why should I care what consenting adults do.

BTW - I'm in my early 40s now. I'm not proud of what I was when I was younger but alot of that was product of growing up in a county that literally was 100% white and about 99.5% redneck. My mother & father always taught me to be nice to everyone but school you heard alot of hatred.

[Beer Snob-50]

26. are you sure of the early 40's part?

just curious.

[LynneSin]

27. Yes I'm an old fart

I remember the excitement we felt when Led Zeppelin was releasing a new album.

:scared:

[Beer Snob-50]

29. sorry

:toast:

:hug:

[Oeditpus Rex]

24. They're focused entirely on the sex

and it squicks 'em out.



That's all there is to it.









Let me clarify: They're squicked out by guy-guy sex. Girl-girl sex makes 'em happy in the pants, but they can't admit that since they've been taught to be ashamed of those kinda thoughts, so they're bad. Bad, bad, bad. It's-to-hell-they're-a-goin' bad. Heebus-is-back-and-he's-really-pissed bad. Bad!



And it must be stopped! x(

[LynneSin]

25. Sex as in those complaining about it probably aren't getting any

seriously

[Orsino]

41. Or on masculinity itself.

As you note, it's the guy-on-guy thing that really gets the monkeys chattering with fear. That a man passing for "normal" might, unbeknownst to the hater, undermine what pinheads consider the definition of manliness, freaks them the fuck out. It's just that when it's out in the open, it's an easy target; make no mistake--these folks are severely paranoid, twitching at any hint of Teh Gay.

[Rabrrrrrr]

45. It's amazing how many lesbian scenes there are in hetero porn movies.

BUT - if there's a guy-on-guy scene in an otherwise hetero movie, then it's bisexual porn.

It is rather funny how many guys who think gayness/homosexuality is wrong can sure pull their pud to a lesbian scene.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

58. The sad thing is, I way prefer straight porn to lesbian porn

Lesbian porn is either sooo fake or if it's made "for women, by women" features people with entirely too much body hair.

[elleng]

55. I agree with Oedit.

Makes them think about the sex acts they aren't supposed to think about, but want to think about.

There's a lot of hidden attraction there, I suspect.

[WildEyedLiberal]

28. Same here

I know some really homophobic guys - they are ALWAYS obsessed with the fear that teh gayz are going to hit on them.

"That ****** better not flirt with me, I'll knock his teeth out!" :eyes: :puke:

Invariably, they're NEVER the kind of guy any self-respecting man or woman would flirt with of their own volition.

I always tell them that now they know how women feel, fending off unwanted advances from nasty men we have NO interest in. Somehow, "that's different." Of course it is - women are simply objects to be ogled or taken or treated as sex toys. THEY are MEN - you're not allowed to treat MEN like that!

So, basically, it's a different outlet for misogyny.

[madmadmad]

30. honestly, i don't get it either. never have and never will.

seriously freaks me out. why does someone who has possibly never even knowingly interacted with the gays, hate us so? and it can't boil down to that one bible passage, because the bible says a lot of craaaaaazy shit...

[Fresh_Start]

31. It think its an extension of our discomfort with sex

we still can't accept that sex is natural, that's why we have these freaky father-daughter chastity balls.

All types of people have sex. Sometimes they have sex in ways that we find disturbing.
Gay sex is one of those disturbing images for some people.

I consign it to the same place I consigned sex between my parents or sex between my grandparents, I don't have to think about it.
I hope it makes them happy but I don't want that picture in my mind.

[DU GrovelBot]

33. ## PLEASE DONATE TO DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND! ##

==================
GROVELBOT.EXE v4.1
==================



This week is our fourth quarter 2008 fund drive. Democratic Underground is
a completely independent website. We depend on donations from our members
to cover our costs. Please take a moment to donate! Thank you!

[skygazer]

43. As usual Grovelbot, you are the voice of reason

But seriously, I agree with the posters who feel it is about a discomfort with sex generally. Regardless of how open we are about sex in some ways, we are still very puritan in others and sex is seen simultaneously as dirty and exciting and a little alarming. How else to explain the extreme discomfort some feel over something as natural as a woman breastfeeding (oh, god - here we go with the breastfeeding!).

If people can feel that uncomfortable about a mother feeding her infant, it's no real surprise that their heads explode at the thought of 2 men (especially 2 men) having sex.

Though why they feel they have to dwell on it, I couldn't tell ya.

[Parche]

34. because the so called bible tells them so

That is the main reason

Get rid of the bible, get rid of hate..........easy as that

:hi:

[Burma Jones]

35. I think it's part of the Patriarchy

and the rejection of the Feminine

[iris27]

48. Exactly. It has always seemed rooted in sexism to me.

If you really start to pin down the fundies, that's what all their anti-gay arguments turn into. "Well, marriage is between a man and a woman." Why? "Children need a mother and a father at home." Why? Because they believe that men and women are so fundamentally different that kids will grow up damaged if they don't have the 1950's modeled for them at home.

Why are they so much more bothered by gay men than lesbians? For the same reasons we don't blink an eye at girls wearing pants, but still have issues with men wearing skirts that aren't kilts. It's ok for women to want masculine things...of course they should, masculine things should be universally desired. But for men to want feminine things, or to act "feminine" in any way, or to be with a man romantically...that they consider shameful. Femininity is unworthy. It's "good enough" for women, because we are "only" women. But men should not degrade themselves to that level, it how these cretins see it.

There's also a very real fear among these men (the asshole anti-gay ones) of being hit upon and treated as sexual objects by gay men. Basically, they are afraid of being treated the way THEY treat women.

Just think, if the ERA had passed all those years ago, the gay marriage battle would already be won!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

51. I agree with Iris

From early childhood, the worst thing you can call a boy is "a girl." Young boys' dislike of girls is somewhat encouraged and thought of as cute, and writers of books and films for children take it as a given that both boys and girls will accept stories about boys but that only girls will accept stories about girls.

[raccoon]

66. Let me add that it's considered cute for a girl to have a name usually a boy's name

for her nickname. Ever notice how in mysteries series, the female detective is often called by a boy's name? For instance "Harry" Harristeen and "Jake" Tiptree. And in RL this is considered "cute" also.

WHereas, boys named Marion or Tracey are in for no end of ridicule.

[kwassa]

67. think of that man Marion Morrison who became better known as John Wayne

John Wayne was, of course, his stage name.

[raccoon]

65. Great post, Iris. nt

[DarkTirade]

37. That's why I prefer brunettes.

Wait... that's not what you were talking about, was it? :P

Seriously though, I wish rec'ing this post would get it on the greatest page.

[dem629]

38. I don't understand hate of any kind.

Live and let live. Anyone who hates people based on anything, from sexual preference to religious beliefs, is projecting more about their own insecurities, imo.

[Skittles]

39. it's rooted in hatred of women

and THAT is pervasive

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

40. Being a straight male

I realized early on if that if a guy was gay, that meant less competition for the Ladies! :party:

[Mike 03]

44. I have never understood it either. Nor prejudice against other races.

It must have a lot to do with how you are raised, and the sort of art you are exposed to, and whether or not you are exposed to dogmatic religion or not.

My upbringing was very unusual though, compared to most people. I never developed feelings of hate for people based upon these things. It was just the opposite. I yearned to be friends with people with other types of experience. If I were not so shy, I am sure I would have met many more.

Diversity is a treasure.

[RandomThoughts]

46. Just to look from different perspectives....

This is to explain a perspective, this is not my beliefs. I love people and try to treat all with love. I work on my own faults, but I like to think on things, so please don't judge me based on trying to explain what I think is the thoughts of others on this. And since it is my thoughts on others thoughts, I also understand this is my guess at others perspectives, and do not want to say I know for sure others feel this way. Nor do I believe all religious people think this way.

First my belief is that IF someone thinks 'gay' is a sin, and gay people are sinners, or there enemies, they should treat them with love. and they should realize that everyone has sin, and it is impossible to know the plans God has for another person. When someone has no sin, then they can judge another. Thats what I believe. I also know God loves every gay person, and it is for God to decide and judge people, not mans role in life. I would think it ok for a person to say they think being gay is wrong for them, they have that right. But saying a person who is gay can not have the same love of life, and equality in the worldly systems is in my opinion wrong.

The religions of the world and people following those religions, can not accept 'gay' as equal or just part of some lives. They literally see it as a person infected with sin, and therefore wrong and not just unequal, but they believe gays need to be told they are doing wrong to help them be straight. And others need to be warned about being gay, to keep them from being bad. Please calm down if this makes you angry, it is not the intent, if a gay person gets angry or hatefully they are no different then the bigot. (in my view)

Unlike 'the gay' other things some religious people think are wrong for them, are ignored. 'The gay' is an especially bad thing for them. Stealing, lying, gossiping, lusting, greed, many religious people are used to those sins, and some like the results, so since those sins help them in their worldly vices, they sorta give a pass to people that do those sins. But 'the gay' that is something they can attack and claim self righteousness, all their own sins can be forgotten, as they point out the really bad people. They can put themselves on a pedestal, and claim holiness (as they steal, lie, gossip, etc) Because they appose 'The Gay'

There are some people that live pretty good lives according to the tenants of their religion as they define it, but they still are not perfect, many people feel pointing out someone else as worse is a way to make themselves feel better about themselves. I hope I am not doing that, my intent is only to think on others perspectives, knowing I have faults in different areas. And I do not claim to be better then the bigot, we all make mistakes at times.

Religions also believe that by making gay equal, or allowing marriage, will make more people gay. Because people will accept it as just something some people do. They see accepting gays as creating more gays, or more really bad sinful people.

To understand the bias against gays by some religious people. You have to understand 'they believe being gay is a willful act that is sin.' They equate being gay as the same thing as someone being a compulsive liar, or being a thief, or being mean and evil. In each of these examples there is someone absorbed in sin. And they see a gay person the same way. And show their views of 'the gay' with claims of righteousness and sometimes even by being mean and angry. A laughable irony.

However I think the Gay hating the bigot is just as bad as bigotry. So my opinion is the Gay person should show they actually understand better then the bigot, and treat the bigot with love. Showering that 'enemy' with love as they state their case for equality and equal worth under the laws of our nation, claiming the same value as every other person also created by God.

[Symarip]

49. The world is run by straight men who are sexually repressed

You'd think they would welcome gay men since a gay man is one less dude to compete with at the karaoke bar. As a straight man with a face for radio, I especially love good looking gay men.

Anyhow, bigotry makes no sense no matter how you slice it up.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

50. I think bigotry in general cannot be understood, no matter what type.

Saying that one form of bigotry is worse than another is sort of like saying murder by stabbing is worse than murder by shooting. They're both.....murder.

Just my two cents.

[Rabrrrrrr]

60. As I was VERY clear to say in my post, understanding does not mean condoning or agreeing.

And I never said that one form of bigotry is worse or less worse than another.

[Radical Activist]

52. I think it makes people insecure about their own lives and choices.

I think some people date, get married, have kids and they're sure its the right thing because that's what they're "supposed" to do. Its the "right" thing to do. That's how the world works, they think.

For two gay people to find happiness suggests that there might be some other life path that's OK. At least, I think that's the problem for mormons. They have an entire world view that's based on families and hetero marriage. Even the afterlife is based on marriage in their view. It threatens their entire belief system to admit that people can be happy with some other way of life that doesn't involve a man and woman getting married. So asking mormons to accept gay marriage is also asking them to abandon some of their core beliefs about how heaven and families work.

Consequently, I don't think there's much hope getting the mormon church to abandon their position on gay marriage. But, I do think its possible to embarrass them enough that they'll stay out of it politically next time and marginalize them in society so that most people disagree with them.

[Danger Mouse]

53. Religion is not the reason people hate gays. It's the excuse. The cover.

It's what they can hide behind. God tells me to hate gays so it's okay to hate gays. Religion, taken the wrong way, is a free ticket out of a lot of responsibility.
So why do people hate gays? They fear that which is different.

[Rabrrrrrr]

61. I think you are right - at least for those who are violently opposed to gays,

and/or who speak loudly against them.

There might be some who simply believe homosexuality is wrong, but don't necessarily act on that.

But perhaps for the more violent ones, it IS the hatred that comes first, and then they find the religious reason to back that hate up and give it a stamp of authority and "okayness".

Good observation.

[bridgit]

54. Not me, there are bigotries in this world I understand even less

[Rabrrrrrr]

62. Which ones?

I imagine we all have our own bigotries we don't understand at all, and those that we understand more than others.

I'm curious which ones you find least able to understand.

[bridgit]

69. Slavery *for* one...

If you're request is to become my friend, so as to know my thoughts? Then PM me, or better yet request my email from someone who is. Though I'll give you a clue: these are not merely feel-good pretensions. To say to be little understood as to the layered, onion-like nature of bigotry, is to allude to a cloistered existence.

It would seem I have more faith in you, than you would have in me but that's fine. I'm rather used to relationships such as these are. Consider it part of my programming.

[Rabrrrrrr]

71. What in the hell -

you assume I have little faith in you because I asked a question? Go off on some tangent about "understanding" and "pretensions" and that brazenly arrogant "ask for my email from someone who is my friend." Wtf?

I asked a simple question because I was curious and interested in how others think about this stuff, especially since you said you have other bigotries you don't understand.

If that's not good enough reason to ask you a question, then clearly, don't bother answering, and put me on ignore, because I don't think there's anything wrong with asking someone a question out of curiosity and interest. Obviously, you take as some kind of personal attack or paranoia-creating intrusion into your 'safety zone'.

:eyes:

Jesus.

[kick-ass-bob]

73. You're such a bastard.

Question askers - that's my bigotry - can't stand 'em. Wanting to know all the answers. You just gotta ask. My god man, this is a message board!! Why would you ask questions?!?1

:mad:

[Rabrrrrrr]

74. You're right! I repent. Please tell me what I think, and I will only make declarative statements

henceforth.

:rofl:

:thumbsup:

[TK421]

59. We just have to meet...you and I..and have a long talk over several martinis...

that would be a fascinating morning, or afternoon, or night...whenever this ended..

What the FUCK business is it of mine what two consenting adults do in the privacy of their own bedroom, let alone their own home? Why can't we get past this bullshit and move on to other issues? They have every right to live their lives how they want to live them with no one interfering or telling them that what they are doing will cause them to burn in hell. Some people are really fucked in the head, shit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Rabrrrrrr]

63. Ah, that would indeed be a fun conversation!

Too bad I will likely never have reason to go to PA.


And yes, indeedy - why spend the energy giving a tinker's damn what other people are doing with their lives if they aren't hurting someone else with it?

Fucking hell.

[raccoon]

64. Simple. Gays are a threat to a patriarchal society. nt

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

68. I'm bigoted against those who DON'T prefer redheads

WTF IS WRONG WITH YOU!!!!

[SOteric]

72. I do kind of understand the bigotry

against Beef-a-roni.