Why is Jesus's pain more important than any humans suffering?

[JPace]

They locked me on GD so I'll ask it here....
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1170875
.............................................
I don't want to minimize the pain and suffering
of Jesus's crucification, but it seems to me that
human beings have suffered greatly throughout history.
Much of that pain was caused by aggressive torturers
and exploitation of people of all ages, sects, nationalities
and sexes. Murder, rape, torture and exploitation of
the innocent is riddled throughout history and the
now. I just don't see much use in the unnecessary
suffering of a man who could apparently perform
blessings through miracles for others and yet did
not choose to save himself.
Some are going to say that God needs the sacrifice
of innocent blood to atone for sins.....sorry but
if that kind of God needs suffering of his human
subjects for them to earn his love....I don't want it.

[waterman]

1. I'm as confused as you are. I've heard this explained a thousand times

and it has yet to make any sense. This stuff isn't meant to be considered with a logical mind, but strictly on faith. Yet almost everything else in life is considered with reason and logic. I haven't been able to make that leap yet. I need either proof or logic for almost everything I tend to believe. And I'm just not getting this.

[salinen]

2. My Mother is dying

a horribly painful death now. I had no idea she was Jesus.

[WilliamPitt]

3. Because he was white

Duh.

http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/022704A.shtml

[Pale_Rider]

5. I think you hit it on the nail ...

... Americans would only support a white Jesus.

[JPace]

7. Good article...thanks.

[StClone]

4. I am no scholar

But the fact that God sent his one and only son to die for all men not just the suffering of Jesus is considered paramount. But there again we are all God's children so the confusion goes ad infinitum.

[stopthegop]

6. because it made salvation availavble to all men..

(men as in mankind..male and female)...other suffering does not

[beanball]

17. Christ

amen to your comment,if you are ever in southern arizona come to our bible study group,you know your scripture.God bless you brother.

[Bertha Venation]

8. It's not.

Fundamentalist evangelical Christians just think it is.

I realize some folk who are not FECs also think his suffering was more important than other humans'. I'd disagree with them.

[LynneSin]

9. He died so our sins could be forgiven

If we have faith and believe in him we can be saved. I suppose the suffering was horrible because lets face it - we're all pretty sinful!

[JPace]

10. None of what you said makes any sense to me.....

If my loved ones make mistakes and choose selfishly
at times (sin?) am I so unforgiving that I would
require the torturing death of a son to inspire
my ability to forgive?

Rather cruel God isn't it?

[DoYouEverWonder]

13. Actually it's Abraham's fault

he picked the bad god to follow. At least that's what the gnostics think.

[LynneSin]

16. Cruel it what sense?

For Jesus?

For us it means we can spend our eternity in Heaven as oppose to a lifetime of the eternal flames of hell.

If you're not religious then it really doesn't mean much

:shrug:

[JPace]

18. I think one can be religious and still wonder

why so many believe that a bloody sacrifice
is needed before one can have an afterlife.
I just don't see the necessity of that.

I think God must be more understanding and
compassionate than that.

[DoYouEverWonder]

20. Because Pauline Christians

really follow Mithras.

Paul of Tarsas took the Jewish Jesus and melded him with the god Mithras. That's where all the stuff that doesn't make sense come from.

[Intelsucks]

11. Are you asking because you want to know, or are you looking for an

opportunity to ridicule the person who actually gives you an answer?:shrug:

[JPace]

12. "Ridicule?"

I don't' think anything I have said or asked has
in any way mocked, mimicked or shamed anyone.

You seem rather touchy about the subject. It is
simply that I am puzzled by the need for a God
supposedly so great as to have created all the
universe who needs a sacrifice to forgive his
creations their errors.

[undergroundpanther]

19. Hmm

Christians say...
Jesus was the last human sacrifice...

But apparently he's not the last sacrifice. He gets sacrificed again movie theater on TV too..He can die in your living room over and over for you on DVD folks..America is just like Rome.
But in real life just like Roman citizens we ignore millions of people are tortured by imperial "powers" because we got ours.We say fuck everyone else until the Centurions come after us.With this attitude we become sacrifices when we let bullies tell us what is good or bad.And the Neocons DO invert the meaning of what is good and bad ,something Jesus warned us that evil people do.

We are already being sacrificed to the rich for the rich so they can stay rich and faceless like god and exist in comfort on top of us.We suffer so that the wealthy might be comforted.Because we are convinced we can't do crap to stop this travesty or dismantle their system of exploitation we let it be expressed through a torture movie that leaves us begging for an anger outlet for the injustice done on screen to the Jesus figure that feels remarkably like how our lives feel when they fall apart.We can resist this kind of psychological manipulation and speak up against it.

Christians claim Christ is your model.
Christ said to Pilate that his kingdom is not of this world.But the Kings, popes, neo-cons and assorted tyrant theocrats with mega-churches who obsess upon Jesus's death also are obsessed with controlling the world.Coincidence?

Their God is a bloody jealous god that demands blind obedience over expressing compassion or love.
Neo-cons wanting to push dominionism onto our nation in a "culture war" for themselves pretend it's for Jesus are just sick bullies playing pious.

These wicked hearted fundies seek to bring Jesus's old testament style blood-n-guts,stone them to death,whited sepulcher kingdom here,now.
To them god is Machiavelli in the sky giving them what they want and Strauss with a halo excusing it.They see no evil in forcing their god upon the"infidels" or sacrificing other people to their god(especially poor people who god punishes with poverty or gays or brown skinned people.)Neo-cons see no evil in destroying our democracy whilst keeping it for each other,destroying our freedom so they can have their old testament tyranny and live lives of licentiousness without constraint like the popes of the middle ages. The dictionary definition of liberal was a generous,gentle good hearted person. Now the Neo cons call liberal gentle good hearted people terrorists.To a bully any kind hearted person who does not enable abuse and stand by while someone is abused is like a terrorist to a bully because they won't let the bully abuse and exploit others to get power or take what they want.

Do not be distracted by the bloody man on the cross, all good hearted people.Instead look at the false cross you are nailed to,that your Friends are on,that the Earth is on..and remember the neo-con bully and the corporate ass-wipe who who puts you there against your will.If you don't feel the cross today you will when you lose your job or can't go to a hospital for fear of losing everything,or when you see kids dying in Iraq. Horatio Algier is the myth that really needs a stake through it's heart.

Jesus and Horatio too are useful to the bible beating neo-cons,They also are useful for those wanting to look the other way when people are harmed by theocrats and corporations.Dominionists of any type will lie and they will gladly sacrifice us all to stay wealthy and on top and they will tell us it is like this because god blesses them with worldly power and wealth,and not us. They can say crap like this because their ruler is Satan,and they are too blind to see they really serve Mammon so they keep on sacrificing us and Jesus too to Mammon..because they want to be lords in this world.

Early Critics of Gibson's Jesus torture movie have been threatened by Gibson himself for having an opinion.He said he'd put their intestines on a stick,and Gibson said he'd kill their dog.But oh He was "just joking" well you put out a torture movie threaten people and then it's just a joke.. the man is crazy..This man Gibson makes a torture movie with Jesus on it,and it's hyped to hell on TV more than Lord of the Rings or the Matrix..Apparently Passion is useful propaganda for someone in power.Passion to me has no spiritual fruits because Gibson and his Opus Dei cultists have no spiritual fruits in them.Gibson's father is a holocaust denier.And despite Gibson's denials,Everyones father DOES influence who you are now if you got honest.The fact Passion was produced by an Opus Dei guy shows Gibson still has ties with his father's sect..

Why make a movie that tortures the alleged gentle god of love and has no resurrection scene? Liberals are gentle and loving..Is this what the Neocons want to do to liberals? Torture us? Why did Gibson focus on the short brutal crucifixion and exclude so much else in the crucifixion and then claim historical accuracy..while being inaccurate too. Gibson is a bully and his movie shows his heart is bloodthirsty and violent inside it. Gibson needs to put that Opus Dei chain around his own heart figuratively and quit being such an asshole.Making his own thigh bleed as if god demands sacrifice of human blood again will not change his evil spirit.

Dominionists and theocrats like Gibson and Falwell and other Kingdom now type churches applaud this violent movie along with the S/M aficionados and serial killers. How much of this movie prompts people to excuse torture,psychological assault,traumas on normal people because normal people are just people not god?

Bystanders to torture are responsible for tortures effects too.
Think about bystanders and spiritual fruits if you see the Passion and hear kids crying and people moan and people shout about the evil jews..Remember if you don't say anything you could have stood up and called this movie the psychological manipulation and visually vicious assault on the emotions that it is. One person telling the truth about what they see can change an abusive situation.Be like the Woman who got a ladder and took down the word Jews from The "Jews Killed Jesus" church sign at the Loving way Church.

Gibson made a movie about torture to desensitize sensitive Americans who are too liberal and it's all OK because it's abuse that's presented through the image of Jesus. Close enough to a person's heart to elicit visceral pain and reaction but far enough away to not cause a public scare or uncontrolled reaction.The movie was subtitled and spoken in Aramaic so you will be FORCED to watch the blood spatter on the screen to understand the dialog..Sadism! And control..

Because it's Jesus it's only rated R..How nice of the neo-con friendly censors still in a furor over a boob and Howard stern....And Dominionists love violence it because they are not into spreading loving kindness,compassion or equality they want power to dominate to crush us all like clay pots..because they have no spiritual fruits.
I have been wondering what irks me about this Passion thing ,and I think I have expressed it.

[meow mix]

14. the Passion of Meow Mix

i dont think i want the kind of god that protects me from suffering.
because then i would be a pet.

a god should want to leave everything up to us,
our growth and achievements. or... suffering and destruction.
either way.

anything else would liken us to being groomed poodles.
(instead of potential contemporaries with "whatever" lies out there)

so, to me at least..
its like saying,
OK
you humans..
are the same as the creator. because..
creator experiences your reality right along with you.. and suffers with you.
creator accepted this risk when he created a universe in which the outcome was entirely up to you.
the payoff in the risk is gaining contemporaries to love.
(instead of pets)

of course this extends to any intelligent-conscience species.
in meow mix religion. (which certainly has room for jesus in it heh)

[JPace]

15. I like your thoughts..

[Susang]

21. While I am no longer a Catholic

Here is the explaination that I was given in the 12 years of Catholic school that I attended:

Jesus Christ was more than a man. He was the son of God. Therefore, he was God made man. His sacrifice was not just the fact that he gave up his life, but the fact that he came down from heaven at all to suffer the day to day existence, then to accept the horrible pain and suffering of his death on the cross that is considered so fantastic and wonderful. His inherent divinity is why he was able to perform all the miracles and resurrect the dead (as well as be resurrected from the dead himself). It is also why he ascended into heaven whole (body as well as spirit).