Should First Cousins Be Allowed To Marry?

[southerngirlwriter]

The word "southern" is in my username, and so I'm NEVER going to hear the end of this one. LOL.

My first cousin (his dad and mine are brothers) is incredibly hot, sexy, kind, intelligent, sensitive, liberal, thoughtful, and sweet. I've had a crush on him since I was about 5.

NO, I AM NOT GOING TO MAKE A MOVE ON HIM! NOT GOING TO HAPPEN IN THIS LIFETIME!

I could never risk my relationship with the only person who has the same last name as me that doesn't resent me for breathing and wish I was dead (yes, the rest of the "family" REALLY DOES hate me that much. They're all freepers, sigh.)

Just, hypothetically. In a perfect world, would it be okay for me to marry Cousin Matt?

[Chicago Democrat]

1. Can I marry my dog?

Or how about a dolphin?

[southerngirlwriter]

3. You can marry your avatar.

nt

[Dookus]

4. One

presumes that your dog or a random dolphin cannot give legal consent to a marriage.

Your argument is ridiculous.

[Syrinx]

9. a guy on Jerry Springer married his horse

But I don't know what point you're making.

[Dookus]

2. actually

first cousin marriages are not outlawed everywhere. Check your state law.

on edit: here's a map of where first-cousin marriage is permitted

http://marriage.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cousincouples.com%2F

[southerngirlwriter]

5. I did. We'd be okay.

I also checked the statistic, and first cousins are no more likely to have genetically abnormal kids than any other couples. :shrug:

Doesn't matter, though. Not going to happen.

I'm never getting married. I am quite unlovable and will spend the rest of my life living alone with a succession of cats, writing books that I hope someone will read. Sigh.

[I AM SPARTACUS]

17. well, you ARE a writer...

http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/ASIN/156512104X/ilectricinfop-20/702-8839243-0950465

Right from Wrong
by Cindy Bonner (Author)
336 pages (August 1, 2003)

We're back in the town of McDade, Tex., for another installment in the family saga...There Sunny reconnects with her 14-year-old first cousin Gil Dailey, and they seal their fate with a forbidden kiss. The balance of the novel covers the next 13 years, from 1913 to 1926, with sexually charged encounters between the cousins dotting some otherwise uninspired prose. Sunny marries an alcoholic, abusive husband; Gil goes off to war in Europe. Each tries to forget the other in the arms of various people they don't love; finally, they run off together.

[southerngirlwriter]

21. LOL

Thanks.

All I do is dream, though. Matt is way out my league, even if we were strangers or co-workers.

[I AM SPARTACUS]

44. now, hold on...

I have a sister, she's a southerngirl-sorta-writer, was in the same boat - single w/ succession of cats, etc...she met-married-lived-happily-ever-after in her 40's. And with the life I've led so far, I can attest to the fact that one can indeed lead a life that seems straight out of a book you don't quite believe but cannot put down.

The alcoholic husband, you could prob'ly forego that part...

[LastKnight]

19. dont worry, im sure youll find somone sooner or later...

that swims a bit deeper in the gene pool than your own cousin anyway.

-LK

[Philosophy]

36. I have the same problem

A coworker of mine offered to fix me up last week on a blind date with someone she knows at the college where she takes night classes, because I am a "good looking, nice, single guy". I told her not to tell the girl that I'm nice, because I'm really not. Needless to say the date didn't happen. :cry:

I'm thinking of writing a book too, I have a lot of free evenings and weekends with nothing to do.

[Kickin_Donkey]

53. LOL

I'm never getting married. I am quite unlovable and will spend the rest of my life living alone with a succession of cats, writing books that I hope someone will read. Sigh.

That's one of the funniest statements I've read in a while. That's the same sort of realistic self-deprecation that I wallow in.

Not coincidentally, I'm also a "writer" but more of a California ethnic writer a la Saroyan or Tan. And as much as I love cats (I have about 15 barn cats sitting outside), I hope not to be a "cat person." (I'm a guy.)

Why must writers be depressive types? I don't know if you're actually depressive, but I think you know what I mean as a kindred spirit.

Cheers.

[AgadorSparticus]

49. that's just lazy!!! 10 billion people in the world. can't find 1

outside your family? :) seriously, i find it utterly gross.

[southerngirlwriter]

50. If you met him (assuming you're hetero), you'd want him.

And you wouldn't care if his dad was your dad's brother or even Rove's brother, LOL.

Thanks for not advocating that I be rendered infertile.

I am seriously never going to get over that comment. On a LIBERAL site. Jesus save me from this filthy fucking planet and take my ass home!! Sigh.

[Syrinx]

6. I've never wanted to marry my cousin...

But I've got some gorgeous female cousins that I've had impure thoughts about. ;)

[SlavesandBulldozers]

7. only if

both of you are gay. then you'd be less likely to reproduce children that had extra appendages or mysterious powers.

[southerngirlwriter]

8. LOL

That's excellent. :D

[LastKnight]

10. JERRY! JERRY! JERRY!

seriously, theve done that show about 5 times...

-LK

[maggrwaggr]

11. sure. Only if you were both rendered infertile after the ceremony

so you couldn't send your inbred kids into the world

[Dookus]

13. there really

isn't evidence that first-cousins produce children with more birth defects than any other couple.

[LincolnMcGrath]

64. Tru Dat

Discover or SciAM said it has been quite common for wealth american familys to marry inside the family, And that there is little evidence a genetic trouble.

[southerngirlwriter]

20. "rendered infertile" ??

And which branch of government, pray tell, should be in charge of THAT? Or should we out-source it to the cousin-marrying Hitler?

:eyes:

I'll never learn. The people on the screen are not my friends.

SGW, the stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid bitch who lets her guard down WAAAAAY too easily, obviously

[izzie]

54. Look at the paintings out of Spain and you see why not.

That is if you have children.

[LiviaOlivia]

12. Sure if you want offspring like Prince Charles

[southerngirlwriter]

14. Information from the link provided above -- thanks!

Fact: No European country prohibits marriage between first cousins. It is also legal throughout Canada and Mexico to marry your cousin. The USA is the only western country with cousin marriage restrictions.

Fact: Children of non-related couples have a 2-3% risk of birth defects, as opposed to first cousins having a 4-6% risk. Genetic counseling is available for those couples that may be at a special risk for birth defects (e.g. You have a defect that runs in your family) In plain terms first cousins have at a 94 percent + chance of having healthy children. Check the links section for more information on genetic counselors. The National Society of Genetic Counselors estimated the increased risk for first cousins is between 1.7 to 2.8 percent, or about the same a any woman over 40 years of age.

Fact: The frequency of cousin marriages in the USA is about 1 in 1,000

Fact: The frequency of cousin marriages in Japan is about 4 in 1,000

Fact: Albert Einstein married his first cousin. And so did Charles Darwin, who had exceptional children.

Fact: Franklin D. Roosevelt, the longest serving US president in history married his cousin (not a first cousin, however they shared the same last name).

Fact: The first Prime Minister of Canada, Sir John A. MacDonald married his first cousin.

Fact: Current studies indicate that cousin couples have a lower ratio of miscarriages -- perhaps because body chemistry of cousins is more similar. The verdict is still out.

[LastKnight]

16. didnt hitler also marry his cousin?

or some other relative? i thought it was his cousin. i could be wrong

-LK

[southerngirlwriter]

18. Oh, for crying out loud.

Hitler also:

ate breakfast on a regular basis.

had a dog for a pet.

took walks for exercise.

:eyes:

[Dookus]

22. No

His girlfriend, Eva Braun, died with him at the end of the war. Some say they were wed shortly before they died. They weren't cousins.

[LastKnight]

25. eh o well, im probably thinking of someone else...

i know there was some opressive fascist that married a relative of thiers... one of those idiots on a 'descendant of pure blood' ego trip kinda thing. that being said... are we sure shub and pickles arent related? lol (sarcasam)

-LK

[gyopsy]

15. Yuck! No!

:wtf:

[Dookus]

23. Do you have an argument

above and beyond "yuck"?

[gyopsy]

30. If you plan to do it...

keep it a secret. It's socially unacceptable in this country. I think it's your own business if you decide to marry your cousin but for many people, it seems weird and isn't too much unlike marrying a sibling or an aunt or uncle.

[southerngirlwriter]

32. What part of this was unclear?

NO, I AM NOT GOING TO MAKE A MOVE ON HIM! NOT GOING TO HAPPEN IN THIS LIFETIME!

Were your parents cousins? :eyes:

[gyopsy]

35. Maybe not you...

but some people in this thread seem to be pretty defensive about the subject. Maybe there's a surprising number of people who actually do find romance with their cousins. I honestly didn't think so many people felt that way and I didn't plan to offend anyone with my comment above.

[Dookus]

37. I'm not defensive about first-cousin marriage

I'm defensive about bad logic, poor argumentation and the idea that "yuck" is a reasonable argument.

As a gay man in a committed relationship with a man unrelated to me, it's not a personal issue.

I'm simply saying that "Yuck" as an argument is as bad as people who use "yuck" to argue against gay relationships.

Use a little logic. a little reason. A little argument. "yuck" doesn't count.

[southerngirlwriter]

41. I am defensive.

Not because I have a crush on my cousin, but because of that "rendered infertile" comment. That made my blood run cold.

We liberals can turn into freepers ready to maim our fellow human beings over a personal preference in the blink of an eye.

The only difference between us and them is that we (for the most part) seem to try harder.

That's scary. :scared:

[gyopsy]

45. It's gotten worse lately

The last year or so I've noticed a lot more spiteful comments on the DU forum about issues like this. Proves everybody has their demons. Even liberals. I guess to expect all people to be unprejudiced against everything is farfetched. I know, being raised like I was, I do have a natural prejudice against certain issues though I try (sometimes without success) to keep an open mind.

[southerngirlwriter]

51. "Spite" is not the half of it, sometimes.

I'm guilty of being probably too direct, too blunt at times. Advocating something that happened in Auschwitz, however, is a little more than I'll ever be guilty of, especially when the "crime" in question is a mildly socially questionable crush.

"Rendered infertile."

I'm definitely not going to sleep tonight.

:scared:

[Philosophy]

24. Genetically, there's really nothing wrong with it

First cousins are genetically distant enough where it shouldn't be a problem, unless your family has a history of genetic disorders. First cousin marriage is actually quite common in many cultures, especially in Arab countries.

[southerngirlwriter]

26. family history

posts only stupidity and conservatism as genetic disorders.

In fact, Matt and I are sports -- the only people in the "family" who have EVER read a book all the way through (except the Bible).

And I REALLY wish I was kidding about that.

[Philosophy]

28. So being a writer

must make you a heretic!

[southerngirlwriter]

29. actually, my freeper mother takes great delight in

hoping that God will let her look down on me as I roast in hell so she can say "I told you so."

Mind you, I'm a Christian. Just not an insane fundy freeper Christian.

[Philosophy]

34. Freeper family values?

Gloating at the prospect of the eternal torment of one's own children. That would be kind of sad, I guess...if I were a Christian.

[Exultant Democracy]

47. It gets to be a problem with successive generations

if the behavior continues. Even with the off spring of first cousins, you find a reduction in the effectiveness of their immune systems.

[Maddy McCall]

61. A 50% greater chance for genetic disorders in offspring is not "nothing"

[Snow]

74. Depends on how high the incidence is in the first place...

if you're talking a defect once every 100,000 births, and that's actually about the rate, then raising that to 1.5 every 100,000 is nothing.

[SaveElmer]

70. Used to be common in the U.S. as well

In the 18th and 19th century. With mobility limited, cousins getting married was very common. My GGG Grandparents were 1st Cousins...which make me and my sister 6th cousins...weird.

[LastKnight]

27. think of how odd that would make thanksgiving dinner...

just a thought, i have no problem with it if you want to do it... but... not something im gonna do.

-LK

[La_Serpiente]

31. You can already marry first cousins in some states

here they are:



http://www.ncsl.org/programs/cyf/cousins.htm

[LastKnight]

33. 'legal under certian circumstances'

odd... what would be the circumstances?

-LK

[Dookus]

38. some states

make an exception for people who can't have children.

[LastKnight]

39. if there are no or very little genetic side effects...

whats the point of that? well, im done trying to make sense of laws tonight. lol.

-LK

[southerngirlwriter]

43. The laws were on the books before genetics got to be

such a developed field.

First cousins have the same birth-defect rate as women over 40.

I guess women over 40 should be "rendered infertile."

I will never get over that remark. :scared: :scared: :scared:

[Dookus]

46. because of popular perception

that there IS a sizeable increased risk.

There's no requirement that laws be based on science.

[gyopsy]

48. I don't think it should be against the law

It really doesn't make any sense.

I would never have relations with my cousins but I don't agree that there should be a law against it. It should be that person's business and that's how I feel about most social issues.

[Maddy McCall]

59. You can in Mississippi--marry a first cousin, that is.

and there is NO EXCEPTION for childbearing ability.

[ArwenJade]

40. I personally find the idea repulsive

But maybe it's because all my male cousins are ugly. Too bad, cause it looks like it's legal under certain circumstances in my state. ;)

[PragMantisT]

42. You mean they ain't?

Move to the Ozarks, y'all. We's all cousins.

[Piltdown13]

52. I voted "other"

I have no problem with it, it's very common in other cultures both historically and today. But, the only drawback is you have to be a little more careful if there are any known genetic conditions in the family -- overall the risk of problems isn't much more than non-cousin marriages, but it never hurts to double check that any patterns of genetic illnesses in the family don't suggest a potentially higher risk (depending on the distribution of genes in the kindred, there may be no increased risk).

[Whitacre D_WI]

55. I remember an article...

I read somewhere in one of the online publications I read (sorry I can't be more specific -- Slate, Salon, I can't find it now) that was about cousin-lovin' and the societal taboos against it.

It was a very non-judgmental article, had some great information, and I'm really bummed that I can't find it for you.

Anyway:

I'm never getting married. I am quite unlovable and will spend the rest of my life living alone with a succession of cats, writing books that I hope someone will read. Sigh.

Of course, this part just makes you sound like Harper Lee or Flannery O'Connor; which wouldn't be such a bad thing to be, though I hope lonlieness isn't all the cards hold for you.

[lcooksey]

56. There is a whole website devoted to cousin marriages

Lots of facts at www.cousincouples.com. I stumbled across that while researching same-sex marriage a couple of months ago.

My mom's parent's were first cousins and there's nothing wrong with me. I love people whose only argument against cousin marriages or same-sex marriages is "Yuck!" Yeah, that's real convincing. :)

[Pale Blue Dot]

57. I was in love with my first cousin

Seriously. And she felt the same way. We spent a lot of our teenage years dramatically discussing what we were going to do about it.

Nothing ever happened, though. The relationship remained rated "G" and we remain friends to this day.

[Maddy McCall]

58. No...and genetic problems can occur from first-cousin marriage

The only couple I know in my home town that were first cousins before they became husband and wife have a son who is mentally retarded.

I don't know if that is the PC term, but he has serious mental retardation.

If you do the Mendelsohn square, there indeed is a GREATER LIKELIHOOD of genetic problems in these kinds of marriages.

Look at Queen Victoria's family and the prevalence of hemophilia.

Edit to add: There is a 50% higher chance of genetic disorder in first-cousin marriage than in the general population.

[bicentennial_baby]

60. It has to be repeated behavior

to produce the effects seen in the Royal family. Also, if there's no family history of genetic disorders, the chance of birth defects is quite low for one couple.

[Maddy McCall]

62. If two people have recessive genes for a genetic disorder and they marry

And it is far more common for two people in the same family to have recessive genes for the same disorder, then do a Mendelsohn on it. As many as 2 in 4 of the children, or half, have a great chance of having the recessive genes from both parents, thus making the disorder dominant and expressed.

I am not just talking about instances of repetetive interbreeding. 50% greater chance for expression of genetic disorders would be enough for me to decide not to do it...and couples considering it should have genetic counseling.

[muriel_volestrangler]

65. Pedantically, I don't think haemophilia would be affected

by marriage to relations. You only inherit it from one parent (unless you are a female sufferer, in which case you must have inherited it from both parents, and your chances of surviving childbirth without medical intervention would be none, I'd think. I don't think there were any female sufferers in the royal family, only carriers).

[Maddy McCall]

68. It's an X-linked recessive genetic mutation...

Women have XX, men have XY. Therefore, it has to be carried by one X gene and in the woman and the X gene in the man. It is a genetic disorder that indeed is dependent on one X gene in the mother and one X gene in the man having the trait for hemophilia.

Do the Mendelian square, and you will see that a child of two parents with hemophelia has a great probability of being affected with the disorder.

[Snow]

76. Mendelian! I'm glad you cleared that up...

I was wondering what a classical composer had to do with it. I'll restate this, by the way - a 50% elevation of something that's extremely rare - and most birth defects are extremely rare - still leaves you with something that's extremely rare.

[Maddy McCall]

84. LOL! Well, it was awfully early when I posted this AM

And as far as being rare, I wouldn't want to take the chance with something like Cystic Fibrosis. It might be rare, but LOTS of people have it.

[muriel_volestrangler]

82. Compare the offspring of a female carrier

in the case of marrying a male sufferer: you get a male sufferer, a male free of the disease, a female carrier, and a female sufferer.
If the mother marries a male free of the disease, she has a male sufferer, a male free of the disease, a female carrier, and a female free of the disease.

So the only difference is getting a daughter who suffers from the disease rather than a duaghter who is neither sufferer nor carrier. I don't think there were any female sufferers in the royal family.

[Ganja Ninja]

63. No way!

Too many republican's as it is.

[Whitacre D_WI]

66. BTW, for the "think of the congenital diseases!" crowd:

We're not talking sibling procreation here, SGW is asking about cousin marriages. The offspring of first cousins do have an elevated risk of genetic problems, but not nearly so great as brother/sister couplings. A lot of these issues can be addressed via genetic testing and counseling.

[BR_Parkway]

67. What about adopted siblings with no blood relation?

[Whitacre D_WI]

69. No, that's just wrong.

:P

[MissMillie]

71. My mother's parents were first cousins

Back then it wasn't illegal for them to marry, but they had to get permission from the Bishop.

[Drifter]

72. It depends ...

I think it should be allowed as long as there is no blood relationship.

I saw a program where a brother and sister were married, had children, and a happy life. Don't freak out. Either one or both of these children were adopted, and were not blood relatives. Turns out this is not an isolated case. If I remember correctly they may have mentioned that there are hundreds cases like this in the US.

The thing that stuck in my mind was that with their situation, their children only have a single set of Grandparents. This turned out to be a strange thing to explain to people.

Cheers
Drifter

[Armand]

73. That's.....gross.

And wrong on an infinite number of levels.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

75. I went to school with a guy who's parents were 1st cousins...

They'd of course never been married. He was actually normal. Turned out to be one of my best friends in high school. Just sadly, though, his family life was really screwed up. His mom and dad were still related of course, and his parent's married to other people. Can you imagine their family reunions?
Duckie

[bif]

77. Only south of the Mason-Dixon Line

[Snow]

78. Anybody know, by the way, what the commonest birth defects resulting from

intermarriage are? You see this in places where people have lived in some isolation for several generations. One example I know of is northeastern Nebraska. A colleague & I nearly published a paper saying that heavy farm chemical use was causing increased birth defects in the area. Then we looked to see what was going on, and, ooops, it was close marriages. The birth defects were polydactyly and syndactyly - extra digits and webs between digits respectively. Minor problems that are usually corrected very early, often at birth, with a bit of surgery.

Korea, by the way, used to disallow marriages between people with the same last name. I don't think that's the case any more - they're not an isolated peninsula with a small population any longer. They still don't have very many last names, but there're tons of different clans for almost every last name. An exception being my wife's family, the Min family, who have only one clan, but that's an exception.

[MAlibdem]

79. Alls I know

Is that whenever I bring any of my cousins around (I have 20), my friends want them-yes we're beautiful people (or my friends are just desperate)

[Xithras]

80. I once kissed my cousin

Long story, but I didn't know her that well, she stayed at my house for about two weeks when we were both 15, and we "fell in love". We ended up making out pretty passionately, but didn't go any further after my little sister caught us and told my dad (THAT was a fun conversation!)

In retrospect, I'm not particularly repulsed by what I did. We were both reasonably attractive, horny teenagers and it's not like she was my sister (ewwwww!). Genetically, the "cousin sex = birth defects" argument doesn't hold up, so I don't really see the problem with it.

I think it has to do with how close you were as kids. I have female cousins my age who I grew up playing with regularly, and the thought of having sex with, or marrying, them has ZERO appeal. This one cousin, who I'd never been close with (before or since), still rates a little differently in my book.

Similarly, when I was 16 my dad remarried and I found myself with a pair of attractive girls, 15 and 16 years old, sleeping in the room next to mine. Like most boys that age, I hit on them and actually ended up sleeping with one of them. At that time, I didn't have any concept of them as "sisters", and there was no blood relation, so I didn't see any problem with it. TODAY they ARE my sisters, and the thought of having sex with, or marrying, either of them repulses me. I DO consider them family today, which makes them romantically or sexually off-limits. Familiarity breeds family (no pun intended).

(Any divorcees with teenagers considering remarriage should keep this story in mind. My dad never ONCE discussed this with me, and the thought that it was somehow "wrong" just never entered the equation.)

[Pithlet]

81. I'm not against it.

I had a crush on my 1st cousin once removed (my father's cousin) who was closer to my age. He lived hundreds of miles away, though, so I rarely saw him. All of my 1st cousins are girls except for twin boys who are much younger than I, so marrying a 1st cousin would never be my choice, being heterosexual.

The only way I'd be against it is in the case of double cousins, because they're as genetically as close as siblings.

[MadHound]

83. As one whose father's family tree is rather stumpy

I would have to say no, don't do it. Otherwise you could be risking your childrens' future. Granted, you could be passing on some positive, recessive traits(in my father's family all of us have exceptional constitutions, healthy as horses, rarely contract diseases). But you could also be passing on some rather negative, recessive traits also(my father's family has problems with alcoholism, Altzhimers, and manic deppression). I bless my mother every day for coming for a completly different gene pool.

If you do decide to go through with this, get some genetic counseling before having kids. But hey, I understand where you're coming from. When I was in my teens I had a huge crush on a first cousin of mine. Then I thought of my father's family and how they all look alike(both male and female), and that pretty much cooled my jets then and there.

And don't dispair, with all of the people in the world, there is at least one out there who is right for you. I gave up on finding somebody when I was about thirty two, went out and bought a house big enough for one, and then poof, four months later I met my future wife. And boy were we crowded in that house for ten years. Thankfully we've recently moved to a larger place.